this is what i can testify to:

this is some of the foundational blocks i stand on:

the setting:
being raised to be Charitable in a Believer's household,whether living for God or not, we always knew to be helpful, giving to others.

the results:

1. what i have learned in my 50 years on this Earth by giving while being a Believer and while not being a Follower.

yes, both ways when i gave it seemed to come back in heapings.
yes, i had raises during both times of my life.

the basic difference i see:

the Benefits/Rewards...

the rewards that came back on my life as a non Follower vs being a sold out Follower were literally astronomical.

my raises are typically a dollar increment per time. my past 5 raises as a BELIEVER, have been around close to three dollars per hour.

in my life i have tested it both ways.
i have found and saw there is a big difference between the two scenarios.

others may not see it in their life, but i have, and it is something that has weighed greatly in my evidence building for God being real than not existing at all.

It is well worth the time taken to fully understand the science behind coincidence. That might help when people see 'patterns' in things, as we all do. It is part of being human that we see patterns. This can result in delusions causing people to believe things that have no basis in truth whatsoever.

People who have a big win on the lottery, followed the next week by another big win can cause raised eyebrows among those who don't understand coincidence. Has someone found a way to influence the results in their favour? Do they have a deity who has decided to 'help' them? Definitely not! It is coincidence at work again!

I respectfully suggest that when 'amazing' things (miracles?) happen, these are due to coincidence and nothing more. Unfortunately the 'proof' used by those who are already deluded into believing things can so easily be seen where there is a coincidence.

Worth bearing in mind.

I have coffee every morning, two cups.
On days I stir my coffee with my favorite spoon I have a good health day.
It must be a magic spoon?

My son had an evil car. Nearly every month he had a flat tire. Always the same wheel. It also ate his wallets. In four years he had to replace his wallet 6 times. He had to replace the key twice and it was a special key with a chip that had to be programmed. It was really evil because it was expensive and always happened right before Christmas.
So he traded that car in for a different one.
It must have cursed his driveway because his newer car also has flat tires in the same wheel position but only about once every two months. He has had this car for two years and only had to replace his wallet once. Plus lo and behold, the battery went flat right before Christmas the first year he had it and the starter went out last year right before Christmas. I wonder what will go wrong right before this Christmas.
Perhaps someone can bring their God by and bless his car and driveway for him?

Maths keep being mentioned
And the Greeks
Have you heard of Vedic maths
Did you know the number zero, was an Indian invention
And apparently it was banned in Europe because they said it was.......
wait for it,

Satanic



maybe, just maybe
⚡ it's because it was developed from spiritual or religious matters / philosophies , that were not 'Abrahamic' or 'European'

Tom,

having a flat tire, a car wreck, a broken windshield from a rock flying off the tire from the vehicle in front of you, a fly landing on your mashed taters after sitting on a pile of steamy dog poo, the list is virtually too long to list here...does not equate to the ACT of God, or God being involved.

yes, on life/death situations, i have found Him here and He does create miracles in this realm.

even having a flat tire has been the Blessing of God since the time it took to change the tire was the time when a 2o car pile up happened i would have been smack dead in the middle of where all drivers died.
^
and yes, luck could even play here but i do not believe in luck. like the lottery. it's not luck, it's hitting the algorithm properly when purchasing your ticket. if you hit it you are going to win. if you don't then you won't win. but its based upon randomness, algorithm, and timing of the ticket sale. so it is a calculated risk win or lose and not based upon stupid luck.

but i see your point and am pointing out my speaking of God interacting on humanities behalf is not what non believer calls luck, but in certain situations, there is that point where you can find God if you choose to look for Him.

MK,

i believe in coincidences indeed.

but the lottery is based upon algorithm (mathematics). so it is not a matter of luck, coincidence, God, it's a matter of being at the right time for the algorithm to take place. if anything, it would be by "Chance" to win the big lottery.

have you heard of the occult designating numbers for "Magical Purposes?"


long true story in short version:

to some degree, even non Believers kind of know the history of how a group of written materials became what is known as the Holy Bible...

in the early 2nd/3rd Centuries, when Nations became introduced to Christ and His views, some who accepted Christ obviously went bezerk and created war on the peoples who had not converted.

this also happened to THE great Society of Rome. and the leader of Rome at that time, CONSTANTINE, a non Believer, follower of the god Apollo, and his mother was the High Priestess of the divinity and roman/greco gods/goddess'.

Constantine knew they would KILL him so he quickly converted.

now, these are the things that supposedly happened in the life of Constantine's god, Apollo.

1. born of a Virgin
2. born on december 25th
^
do these remind you of anything? SAME as Jesus (Yeshua)?

well they should...because...this SAME pagan follower pretending to be a Christian in order to not be murdered, led the Council in selecting which Materials should be in the Bible + he added his own opinions (maybe the virgin birth and born on december 25th)??

this is why i use the other materials, because how can someone not a Believer, suddenly be qualified to pick and choose what Believers should read??


***now back to my original question***

have you heard of the occult designating numbers for "Magical Purposes?"

the NUMBER 66 is a potent meant to discourage.

the PAGAN Constantine chose 66 BOOKS for the Bible (he CHOSE the NUMBER 66 to DISCOURAGE PEEPS FROM READING THE BIBLE).


just thought i'd add that bit of knowledge for you to feast upon.


but to your concerns:
of course mathematics will be used in all ways, good or evil..

and veda ancient maths are not math at all but formulas of mathematics and they are accurate.

they were thought to be magic because f you use the formulas, you get the correct answer without having to pen it down on paper or use a calculator.

in my opinion, hidden in the Egyptian Pyramids, hidden in South America, even places like stonehenge which reveals Ancient stone structures that literally are laser pristine cut and BEYOND the capabilities i have access to in my Gage (tool & die) Shop or any other Machine Shop(s).

i always felt that the Ancient Verda Maths, Mathematical Formulas, could hold some answers to Ancient Manufacturing. but no one has ever tried connecting the dots so who knows.

Yeah, I think SyFy Channel did an original movie that connected those dots.
Don't recall the name of the movie but it was a SyFy Original.

So on the subject of Does God Exist?
I think we have established it is entirely a personal thing which each person believes.

Some say Yes
Some say No
Some say Maybe
Some say I Doubt It.

Did I miss anyone?

I just realized...I forgot my vote.
My Vote: Other

Not everyone dies in pile ups.

Even in the massive Wyoming pile up only about a dozen people were injured.

In Colorado a run-away semi killed 6 people and injured a dozen others. Pileups don't involve 100% fatalities. Ever.

Back to it...

Free will...only people get free will right?
If Adam and Eve had free will in the Garden of Eden
Then the Serpent tempted Eve
Didn't the serpent have free will?

If the Angels, of which the serpent was, did not have free will, who gave the serpent the free will to offer the apple of the tree of knowledge to Eve?

Its a matter of deductive reasoning.
Man is the only one with free will.
Then suddenly a serpent has the free will to go against God's will.
Who gave the serpent free will?

BTW: Why was the apple there in the first place?

The change in the calendar means that 25th December has nothing to do with Christianity. That date was used by Pagans to celebrate the end of the year and the Christians merely adapted it to their own needs. If you take the calendar change into account, the actual date of the birth of Jesus was somewhere in the month of what we now call August.


In the lottery your choice of number is mathematically a random choice. The machine that calculates the winning number is designed to be a random number generator. Thus both numbers are random. Mathematically it is a coincidence when for a given person those two numbers are the same. Just a coincidence, but of course a lucky coincidence for the winner.


I have never seen any suggestion that whoever made the Stonehenge structure had the use of precision tools that were more advanced than the best we have today. I have heard that the pyramids were built with an amazing accuracy. The blocks of stone just fitted together with no need of the cement that we would use today in building walls of brick. Maybe you are confusing the two? After all, the pyramids are still here today and the accuracy of their building is still evident. Stonehenge is just some large rocks with no current evidence of accuracy that I can see or have ever heard of.


It's strange that only one contributor to this thread appears to be incredibly knowedgeable about these things while other believers are content to state that they are happy in their belief and leave it at that. Personally, I go along with the OP and his use of the word 'god'. I have heard of this deity being called Yahweh, but as long as you know who you're talking about, it doesn't matter which name you use. I am so ignorant I have never even heard of 'Yah' or some of the other names used before reading this thread! As to the difference between one name and another, that is so unimportant it goes right over my head and my eyes just glaze over when I see lines of bold text, italics and capitals, as sometimes happens.


But then without you there wouldn't be much to discuss. People would just answer yes or no to the original question. Belief is a personal opinion not a fact because there is no correct scientific 'proof'. Nothing wrong with a personal belief but it would be wrong to claim such matters as 'fact' without the correct scientific proof. Correct proof is the publication in a scientific journal of a theory, which if proved, would create a new understanding in human affairs. A further study by unrelated scientists in another part of the world which comes to the same conclusion would strengthen the possibility that this theory has merit.


Further studies might disprove the theory producing an interesting scientific argument which would continue until one side conclusively shows that the other side was incorrect - and that side would need to publish a correction explaining, perhaps, that they had missed out something important. When everyone agrees on a theory it becomes accepted as a fact, at least until further research proves otherwise. The atom being the indivisible smallest particle is an example of a good theory which was proved to be wrong in the light of a more modern science. There has of course been no such publication in any of the respectable journals and until there is, the concept of a deity will remain an opinion. As Tom says, some believe and some don't.


As I have said before a new interesting item of research has suggested that perhaps we don't have free will after all. A computer that is programmed to do something will always do that, unless the program is replaced with a different one. Imagine the human brain as an unbelievably complex computer which is programmed to do the 'best' thing at all times. The inputs for the decision making will include the five senses and the memory of past situations, for example when driving to work you will know the route to take after the first time. The point is that computers do not have free will, they only do what their program calculates is the best thing at each moment. Any form of illness will change the input to the computer and in some cases a mental illness could cause a person to become a murderer. This is interesting research to follow. Proof that we do not have free will would have extremely far-reaching consequences, going right back to that apple!

Couldn't agree more!
MK gives a valid argument.
But...
Nobody wants to tell me why the apple was there in the first place.

If you think about it, the whole religion is based on that apple.

Without the first sin, everything that comes after is moot.

Plus the "Free Will" everyone refers to is Man's free will and if that free will is a gift from God, to man, why did Lucifer have it?
Plus, he had it BEFORE the first sin or he wouldn't be able to tempt Eve.

In all logical sense, we shouldn't exist.
We should still be Adam and Eve in the garden.
According to religion.

Eve ate from the tree of knowledge (the apple)
because she was tempted to by Lucifer.
Lucifer was an angel that fell from grace.
Being angel, he wouldn't have the free will to go against the wishes of God.
God created Lucifer, as an angel.
On which day was he created because he fell from grace before God created man.
Then God made man and made Eve from Adam's rib.

If you accept this, Cain and Able are products of Adam and Eve.
Who else was available for Cain or Able to reproduce?
Did Cain and Able mate with Eve?
They had to because there was no others.
Adam was first.
Eve Was second.
Cain and Able didn't happen till after Eve at the apple.
So that means Adam and Eve had sex.

Now Cain killed his brother.
So all that is left is Cain, Adam and Eve.
Who did Cain mate with?

But..and this is the real sticker, why was the apple there in the first place?
Without the apple, no sin.
Adam and Eve are still naked in the garden.
There is no Cain or Able because God didn't expel them.
Sin does not exist.

Without the apple, the entire religious foundation fails.
So, why was the apple even there?

I have a garden of Eden.
I have my creation that is really special to me.
I add to it.
Then I add a tree of knowledge to the garden and tell them they can't eat from it?
Then I allow my enemy access to the garden?
Where does this all make sense?

God put the tree of knowledge in the garden for only one reason.
So man would eat from it.
The only logical conclusion is God intended Man to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So, if the tree was placed in access to them on purpose and Lucifer was granted access to the garden, sin is initiated by God.

Without the apple, there is no need for Yeshua.
No need for a flood.
No need for Cain...or Able.
No need for a Moses.
All sin is moot.

Without that first sin, there would be no world as we know it.
This is a very sound argument against religion.
Anyone willing to debunk my reasoning is free to do so.
Frankly, I'm interested in reading it.
Just remember, all scripture is going to be after-the-fact of the apple.

cool, i will look into that and thank you!!

the bottom line is simple:

if we are the result of Billions of years of Evolution, and we technically are just on a higher scale of the Primates, we simply are still ANIMALS.

and if you took every Species out there and assembled them together, there would be a MASSIVE BLOODBATH between the Species because WE ARE ANIMALS!!

and therefore, IF WE ARE SIMPLY ANIMALS, then we definitely are not INHERENTLY GOOD ANIMALS BY NATURE, WE ARE MURDERS, WE ARE SELF ALIGNED AND CENTERED, AND THE LEARNED TRAITS OF GOOD BEHAVIOR WE EXEMPLIFY ONCE IN AWHILE ARE "LEARNED TRAITS," NOT NATURAL GENETIC TRAITS!!
^
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN THEN?

it means, if you tell me you are a HUMANIST, (you are a liar), if you claim to be a good person (you are a liar) YOU ARE LIKE A DOMESTICATED CAT WITH BILLIONS OF YEARS OF EVOLUTION CRAMMED INSIDE YOU WAITING FOR YOU TO BE THE ANIMAL YOU NATURALLY ARE!!


so if EVOLUTION is how we got here, then NONE OF US ARE ANYWHERE REMOTELY AND POSSIBLY NATURALLY A GOOD HEARTED PERSON. SO PRETENDING TO BE GOOD WHEN YOU ARE NOT NATURALLY IS ABSOLUTELY 100% HYPOCRITICAL!!


by adding GOD to my natural Animal Self, NOW I CAN BE A GOOD PERSON without being a complete Hypocrite because only something UNNATURAL can make my NATURAL instincts become good.
^
that is what God does since i am a product of Evolution, or just the highest Animal on the chain at the current moment!!

we are a dog:

we get fed and then let someone touch us
we don't bite because we our fed, have a home, have secure things and conditions but the moment something crosses us wrongly, WE BITE!!

because we are inherently BAD ANIMALS, there is nothing remotely GOOD ABOUT OUR ANIMALISTIC BEINGS FROM THE OUTER CORE TO THE HEART ITSELF!!

WE ARE ANIMALS, DOMESTICATED ANIMALS.


so if any of you tell me you are naturally good and a humanist (like throughout this thread)...YOU ARE LIARS!!

Tom.


the reason why the Messiah was so important to the Hebrew Peoples was before Yeshua came, before Adam was the first in the Lineage of the Messiah, and going back to Genesis 1:1 when at this moment EVERYTHING is finished and completed (Universe on it's daily growing path, and life on Earth as God intended).

the Messiah is the Mediator between God and Creation.

Abraham, Moses, and others acted this way but in a natural setting, not being ultimately led by a Spirit Being.

but in Genesis 1:1, God created the DEVIL and made him the Mediator over the first original before Adam Creation. so the DEVIL was GOOD...until...the Devil thought he should be recognized as God since he was te Mediator. and he exalted himself to be EQUAL to God. and he told the FIRST CREATION (GENESIS 1:1) THAT HE WAS THEIR GOD AND MAKER.


LONG STORY SHORT, THE DEVIL WAS BOOTED FROM HIS OWN SELFISH ACTIONS. but all along, the DEVIL had FREE WILL!! he was the FIRST ever Angelic Being to have Free Will and use it as he pleased.