but from this moment on, i agree we resulted from Evolution and that makes us no more than simple ANIMALS.

and that means, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for us to naturally [be] GOOD or a HUMANIST. if we are those things its due to being TRAINED LIKE A DOMESTICATED DOG, ANOT BY BEING BORN AND NATURALlY DESIRE TO BE gOOD!!

SO, whoever BELIEVES IN eVOLUTION OVER creation, REMEMBER, you are a ANIMAL that IS NOT INHERENTLY GOOD AT ALL!!

you are a MURDERER, RApIST, THIEVE, LIAR because these are the NATURAL THINGS from Evolution and Nature, not being the goodie 2 shoes!!


this is why God is REQUIRED!!

since the idea of God has been on the scene, humanity has DOMESTICATED THEMSELVES and the simple rebellious fall outs (like on this thread) pretend the good in them is NATURAL hahahahaha but it is a good because their Society was being forced to Domesticate.



this is priceless and thank you God for showing me the difference between Creation and Evolution and difference between naturally NO ONE is INHERENTLY GOOD vs with God, we have Domesticated ourselves because we SEE being GOOD is a better option in existence!!

this is AWESOME!!

I object most strongly to being called a liar because I don't believe in your imagined deity. I don't call you a lair for having such ridiculous beliefs. I call you mistaken.

I assure you I am a humanist simply because I follow accept the ethics of Chritianity without the need for imaginary deity. If you don't agree with the ethics of Christianity you have the right to call me mistaken in not accepting your belief system, but do not call me a liar.

Thank you.

Can we now have please a sensible reply to my last message?

that's fine, MK, but if you result from evolution then factually you are not a good inherited person naturally, you are domesticated because seeing those Believers in God being Good peoples has ultimately led Societies to adapt and Domestic themselves.

you cannot preach evolution and you are a good natural person simultaneously, that is a LIE!!

theoretically, evolution is a string of mass murder.

that is what "natural SELECTION" is.

kills what is not wanted/needed and keeps what benefits itself (all selfishness)

evolution and the term good nature are factually opposite in meaning.

so if we evolved from evolution, NONE OF US ARE A HUMANITARIAN OR A NATURALLY GOOD PERSON, none of us!!

this is why we NEED God!!

natural selection:


if a domesticated kitten purred and rubbed itself against a wolf, what are the chances the WOLF suddenly has a "GOOD NATURE" and not find this kitten as easy food and prey?

slim to NONE...


unfortunately and factually, we are the WOLF and naturally we want to kill the kitten and consume it.

so, NONE OF US, are born with the "Natural Genetics/Traits" to be GOOD, NONE OF US!!

natural selection ENSURES this!!

humans are carnivore/herbivore(s).

i raise ANIMALS so i as an ANIMAL can consume them on my DINNER PLATE.

and if another human tries to harm my POTENTIAL FOOD SOURCE, i will beat them like they should have NEVER EXISTED because i am not NATURALLY GOOD, i am by NATURAL SELECTION a MURDERER!!

just like ALL HUMANS are NATURALLY MURDERERS!!

but as a Child of God, instead of seeing you as the enemy, someone threatening my food source, someone threatening my way of life...i see you as someone i want to share God with.

it does not matter who accepts or rejects God by me presenting God to them...it only matters that i care ENOUGH to want to share God with YOU!!
^
and that example of LIFE is completely not NATURAL SELECTION, not EVOLUTION, but Almighty God who lives within me reveals the IMPORTANCE of You as a fellow human being.

so, evolution/natural selection and the traits stemmed from ARE NOTHING GOOD IN VALUE TOWARDS ONE ANOTHER.

but adding God to that MESS [^], now i am of GOOD SUBSTANCE!!

even Science claims by way of Evolutions Natural Selection Process we are mere ANIMALS and are Domesticated.

but Naturally, we cannot see a Reason to Domesticate, this is where God makes all of the Difference!!

and by way of those believing in God and changing to be "BETTER," the rest of Society chose also to domesticate.

the only ones who deny these facts are those who are going to be their NATURAL UNDOMESTICATED SELVES, AND CLAIM THEY ARE "GOOD ENOUGH" ON THEIR OWN MERITS HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
^
WHAT A BUNCH OF LIARS!!

So, I still would like to know why the apple and Satan were in the garden?
Yer sayin Satan was the first to have free will.
So, he used free will and God sent him to hell.
Then, he gives man (his favorite creation) free will and decides to test it by subjecting their innocence to a convict?
If He didn't want man to have the apple, he's God, why put it there in the first place.
I think Eve was 'setup' and God intended to punish us from the getgo.

Plus, if Satan can get into the garden with his free will and sin, why can't man get back in.
Seems like God is playing favorites or playing head games.

If it was a test, why would this perfect God need to test anything?
He already knows all, is all-powerful, all-loving and everlasting.
He created everything, including the apple.
If the apple was so bad for us, why create it?
Only makes sense if religion was invented by men who had metal problems.
Men who were power-hungry narcissistic woman-haters with limited reasoning capacity.

As for the animal comments.
Humans are omnivores.
Humans have the capacity for logic and reason.
Its that capacity for logic and reason which rises us above.
Logic and reason gained from eating the apple of the tree of knowledge.
Plus, of all the animals on this planet, humans are the only ones with the capacity to understand the concept of good and evil.
We teach these concepts to our offspring.

Being a good person is a decision just like being an evil person is a decision.
A 'learned' discipline.

If we needed God to be good people, all who have never been exposed would be evil and I know some pretty good people who don't follow religions.
My current GF and her family do not follow religion.
She has no idea what I am talking about when we discuss this thread.
I have to explain the concept to her.
Without God in her life, she is a caring and gentle person.
She accepts me as I am and never tries to change me.
Its the main reason we get along so well.
Her parents are caring, gentle people.
Plus, they don't carry around stress and brood about it.

So if MK (or anyone else) says they are good people, I find it believable.

Thank you Tom

Who made cider? From the apple?
I saw a program about some ( I think they were Amish, could've been Mormons, not sure ) religious teens, come to Britain for the first time.
They were homed with some 'regular' teens
1 girl danced for the first time ( after been told it was not satanic)
And 1 lad, drank alcohol for the first time, after asking what was in it, and being told, apples, he gave it a go, he declared ' That's the best apple juice, I've ever had'

Don't they reckon the apple represents the hidden knowledge, and you of course, need somebody to brainwash... Cough..I mean educate you, with the correct knowledge from the correct sources, and so on, as your eyes glaze over, just as theirs start to twinkle.
Sarcy , but true

Heaven is everywhere, though we don’t always perceive it, because of our will, working to sustain life. There remains the question of how does one relate to the other side and still pursue life.. If one is lonely and is socializing, the relating is through the Holy Spirit. If one is making peace with the inanimate world, the relating is directly to God.

Why did God have Adam eat the apple? That is the question of why we, as life, here. I accept the reason that Christ gave, that it is because of love, though I do not know the specifics. To me, will is just the mechanics of the powers of the inanimate world. The powers of this world are the will of God. Period.

Peace be with all.

Tom,

indeed, being good is something if you practice enough can happen. but when our natural selves were just wild, free, and roaming, no one thought to themselves "naturally" my instincts, genetics, and traits instruct me to be one way...so magically, ill just have the idea to change one day...don't buy it!!

definitely somewhere there was a an example that gave REASON to change and be good. i believe that "Original Example" was God!!



i guess you are serious about the devil, apple in the Garden?

ok then. first of all, we do not know what fruit the Tree called "Knowledge" had to offer. so i try NOT to use the example of the apple, because Science thinks it should be Pomegranate since that initiates the process of thinking better than the apple. it does not matter to me what the actual fruit was.

the fruit only demonstrates what Adam/Eve took a bite from.

now the Devil part:

to begin, we know God presented TWO TREES.
1. Tree of Life
2. Tree of Knowledge

all throughout the Bible, there is an emphasis on the "TREE," because it leads to the Messiah and the CROSS.

and just like the Devil tried to deceive and keep Eve/Adam away from the "Tree of Life," in the Garden, he also thought by killing the Messiah on the TREE (CROSS) he would stop humanity as a whole and keep it away from the Tree of Life!!

but as the Devil deceived Eve/Adam from that Tree of Life, God deceived the Devil by having him kill the Messiah on the TREE that was going to be the "ULTIMATE TREE OF LIFE FOREVER!!"

God knew what took place from beginning to end before even MAking it Happen. and then, He put it into action. why He did as He did can be for many Reasons including thinking badly towards Him. but it is what He did. not my place to second guess and don't actually care why He did it this way. to me, it's like the Military. don't have to like it but doing it their way could possibly be one of the reasons your life is saved.

I understood it wasn't an apple and wasn't even a tree.
It was partaking of knowledge, understanding and reason.
It was adopting imagination.
The need to question.

Plus I know God didn't do anything.
The men who were seeking to control their followers devised the first sin and blamed it on the weakness of a woman.
Which fits with the culture even now.

Religion is always strongest when nobody questions it or thinks too much about it.

The reason why people have the capacity for good or evil is because humans are social creatures. Society is why we have laws. Society is strongest when the people are unified. Society unification is taught from a very young age so nobody just magically changes to be good.

Even hunter/gatherers we call savages or aboriginal have unity within their group. Its because the human animal is a social creature by nature.

Tom,

no doubt that 99.9% of beliefs and idealisms of the unknown are pure design systems to control. i would be a fool and moron to even try and deny that fact.

but ironically, everything we read of the Hebrew Torah (not the fake KING JAMES BIBLE and its version of the Old Testament) is completely fulfilled by what the Ancient Greeks wrote about Jesus(Yeshua) and Him being the actual and literal Messiah of the Hebrew Torah.

if the Greeks were even just telling half truths that means there is truth to it, it still makes the Hebrew Torah valid.


so if that is the case, as the Greeks indicate to all of us the READERS; then this would not be the typical 99.9% system of mind control you speak about, but would literally be the missing .01% you still find iffy at best.

but that is all a true God would ever require...the .01% to make the Miracle stick in your mind clearer because no one believes the .01% even matters or exists :)

It seems weird, that to validate the Bible
You have to use the Torah
That would seem like, they're either the same, or different
So if they're the same, then why have 2 different religions
And if they're different, surely you can't just pick and choose which bits you like

I wonder if this thread creation goes on to infinity and lives forever.

Good point R2.
You can't use several works of fiction to cross reference each other and always say 'it must be true because it is also written in this other book'.
Whatever is written is by the mind and hand of man = fiction.

I believe in Dr Seuss. There are many Dr Seuss books.
One had a truth in it, so they are all real and factual.