Sure, I'll be glad to expand on this.

You ask, "why do you always look to attack something you do not believe in"

I don't. I was responding to a direct accusation that was aimed at "me" or anyone in general actually.

This was the charged:



I personally don't care what trunner69 believes for himself. If he wants to believe that Christ was the son of Yahweh and that he's personally full of sin and need to find salvation, that's perfectly cool with me.

But that's not what he posted.

He posted that if "You" (the reader that he is addressing) has no accepted Christ as your Savior your are doomed. (I'm sure he didn't mean domed )

In any case he's making blanket statements about the fate of other people and he's claiming to know the 'will' of God for everyone.

As soon as a person moves into that terriory they are no longer just spiritual, but instead they are claiming to speak for God!

They are claiming to know what God wants from other people.

I feel compelled to point out to him that the dogma that he claims to be the "Word of God" isn't even consistent much less divine.

After all, if one human being can point to a mythology and claim that it's the word of God, then another human being has just as much right to point to the same dogma and express their opinion as well. And if their opinion is that the dogma is inconsistent, ignornat, and bigoted, and far from divine, then so be it. That's a valid opinion.

To then turn around and claim that I'm 'bashing' his views is utterly asburd. Because he had already 'bashed' by views when he demanded that if I don't accept Jesus as my Savior I'm doomed.

Do you see?

He already told me what he expects me to believe, and he has already denounced whatever I might believe by implying that if I don't believe his views I'm "Doomed".

Actually if he would have simply stated it as follows I wouldn't have jumped on him.

If he would have simply said, "I believe that accepting Christ as my savior is the only way to salvation". I wouldn't have said a word.

But that's not what he said.

He said, "If you have not accepted Christ as your Savior you are domed."

That's telling me what I must accept to be true, that's not telling me what he believes to be true for himself.

As long as Christians engage in proselyizing their beliefs, and trying to push them onto other people I will always respond in a like manner by pointing out how absurd the whole Biblical picture truly is.

The day that Christians quit proselytizing their beliefs is the day that I'll quit responding to them in kind.

And by the way, I never even told the man that he is doomed. All I did was point out how absurd the mythology is that he is referring to.

As long as the Bible is claimed to be the word of the creator of all human beings, then all human beings should be able to comment on what they think of it whether their thoughts about it are favorable toward it or not.

Why should any human being be chastised for seeing the Biblical story of "God" as being utterly absurd?

You say,...



What does that have to do with anything?

First off, no one needs to twist the religion to make it apper to be bad. Just look at history and you can see all of the evil works that were done in the name of this religion, and even continue to be done to this very day. The religion still inspires people to be hateful toward same-gender lovers, as well as inspiring people to denounce anyone who doesn't believe in the religion as being 'doomed' just as trunner69 has done.

Secondly, why would you suggest that I need to have been hurt by this religion to recognize that it's utterly absurd?

A supposedly all-wise God who always solves problems using violent gory methods?

That's utterly absurd in IMHO, no need to be hurt to recognize that.

A supposedly loving compassionate God who is appeased by blood sacrifices to begin with (not unlike Zeus who came before him)

I don't need to be hurt to recognize the absurdity of that.

A supposedly all-knowing, all-powerful God who's supposedly so dependable and trustworthy that he never changes his mind. At one point tells people to judge their brothers and stone sinners to death. (isn't that supposed to his job to judge people and deal them?)

At one point he floods the planet as a response to sin, and the next moment he's desperately sacrificing his son to appease Satan.

This is a supposedly all-knowng, all-powerful God who's at war with a fallen angel?

I could go on and on and on at how absurd this story is.

So what up with suggesting that the religion must have hurt me?

As a human being who has read this story and has heard all sorts of supposedly 'excuses' for the behavior of this God, I've simlpy come to the conclusion that the creator of this universe couldn't not possible be as stupid and unwise as Yahweh.

And I don't mean to offend anyone by that conclusion.

As a human being that's my assessment of the mythology. I have every right to assess it since it's authors claim it to be the word of my creator. I reject it as nothing more than the controlling writings of mere mortal men who weren't even all that wise, much less divine. And clearly male-chauvinistic to boot.

I don't believe that the creator of humanity would be a male chauvinist. That's absurd.

Do I love to explain how absurd this story is?

Yes I do. Because it's so absurd that's it's actually fun to make fun of it.

In all honesty I think the story of Zeus is more reasonable. And no one has any problem dismissing Zeus as mythology.

Same thing that happens in my belief.

Well, I'm a christian and having read the book a couple of times I've gotten one impression disticntly. We all are going to just the one place, I haven't figured out if we are all doomed to hell or all going to heaven but we are all going, no just a few select.

See the way I figure it, we either all go to hell because we cannot possibly live up to god's expectations or Jesus, the only christian deity that actually cares about us humans, is going to do what he has already done and forgive us all. There can be no other option in christianity.

Me personally, I believe the latter. If you actually pay attention and get through all the useless junk that's in the bible, the story if very simple. God is a child or acts childish. He constantly demands our attention, and throws tantrums when we don't pay attention. God just wants loyal servants. He is so cruel as to kill his own child in order to get them. You see, we rejected god and he needed an escape clause to his own rules - enter supreme sacrifice. Now all can come to heaven because we are all forgiven.

Besides, there really isn't a devil, god is reponsible for both good and evil, only we humans apply the label, he doesn't. If he was really an "all powerful" god, don't you think he could rid the universe of "evil" if he wanted? Yeah, he created it, he wanted it, he's responsible. Remember in the garden it was all good, even the evil, we just didn't recognize it as such. We all go to heaven, which to someone like a human, who has lived with free will, should seem like hell.

Well, I must confess, that's one of the most unique and interesting views I've seen for Christianity in quite a while.

I just wonder how the official clergy of the religion would respond to it?

This is one thing about the religion as an organized entity that is a bit problematic. A good example is the Bishop Carlton Pearson who was a very devout Christian who had a very large following in a very large Christian chruch.

But then one day he believed to have had an epiphany from God who told him that the mainstream religion has the concept of Hell all wrong and there is no Hell as was currently being preached.

However, when Carlton Pearson proclaimed this revelation to his congregation the Christian communtity at large condemned him as a 'heretic', unfortunately.

I find this quite interesting, because in a very real way I too could claim to be a "Christian" and simply give my version of how the Biblical story appears to me.

From my point of view, Jesus actually came to denounce the Old Testament and the teachings of Yahweh. The things he appeared to be teaching sounded like Buddhism to me. And then he was crucified for blaspheme and the New Tesatment was written later attempting to 'resurrect' him as the sacrificial lamb of Yahweh (the very deity that Jesus denied, IMHO)

Of course, no official Christian clergy is going to accept my version of the story because I denounce Yahweh and the whole need for salvation thing. I also denounce the idea that Jesus was a sacrificial lamb. In my version Jesus was just an enlightened mortal man who was trying to save humanity from a horrible mythology that had them stoning each other to death. But instead of saving them he was crucified and then later used as a dead marionette doll to prop up the very dogma that he denounced.

So I would definitely be proclaimed a "heretic" be the Christian clergy if I tried to call myself a 'Christian' via my version of the story.

You're version at least perserves the sacrifical lamb deal.

Near as I can tell, the quote from the man himself of "I bring forth a New Covenant unto you" means that anything pre-Jesus {meaning old testiment) no longer applies. The only reason anyone should listen to a word of the old testiment is because it shows the prophecy line to Jesus, of course this can also be called into question. Anyone who says they are christian, but still quotes the old testiment, in my book, is not a christian, but a jew who isn't practicing they're religion correctly. Fortunately for them, Jesus saves. He's like a depression era grandmother, he keeps everything.

Dontcha' just LOVE those who can say so much...in so FEW words?

I sure do!

I can certainly lean upon being long in the tooth, thus tending to be wordy, but wholly COW..this tread takes the cake AND candles with some posters!

Don't get me wrong, I'm one who loves to read and research...but, when it tends to become more "blah, blah, blah"...I start yawning, scratching my arse, and reaching for the pillow.

GET TO YOUR POINT FOLKS...quickly AND accurately, please?

It's interesting you say that the religions on't say what happens to non-believers. All the ones I researched in the judeo-christian realm all say that non-believers burn in hell, gnash teeth and are flung into outer darkness.

They say the non-blievers deserve this because they have "denied a god", whatever that means.

We are energy and condensed energy, i.e. matter. Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, it can only change forms.

to respond if you feel it was an attack you must have a guilty conscience. the question that he was responding to was in the original post. what do your beliefs say about those who do not believe the same as you. That was all he was responding to. that was not an attack on anyone. if you pay attention i even commented on it and clarified it for others but i notice you had no objection to that.

You go on and on about how bad the religion is yet that is not the intention of this post or discussion. if you want to start a post on why your beliefs are all that matter feel free to. bash religion that might say you are in the wrong. you keep bringing up zues in every post that you do. no matter the discussion you bring up how bad the christian religion is. yet you claim you do not have a problem with it. you referenced teaching religion well only the christian faith as a a form of child abuse come on now how much a stretch are you going to go. i guess only religion and beliefs you have are the right ones. how intolerant can you be?

And back to the point so what if they are going to believe something that you think is absurd? What difference does it make it to you? Are they do anything to hurt you? On here likely not. Why is it you are the only one who had a problem with it. many others did not agree with him. Only comments they made was on the spelling. I think before you should follow the discussion before jumping in because you were hurt. And in that regards how can you be hurt by something you do not believe in. For me it would be like someone saying the bogeyman is coming to get me. Would i care? not at all. would i go on at how ridiculous that is? nope not in the least.

Let me repeat this since the first three times you have missed it. What you have failed to realize is all beliefs systems claim to be the right way. "THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT WHICH IS RIGHT BUT IT IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT DOES YOUR RELIGION SAY ABOUT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE"

I do not know if i could be anymore clear. "THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT WHICH IS RIGHT BUT IT IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT DOES YOUR RELIGION SAY ABOUT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE"

So in case you didn't get that let me repeat it. "THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT WHICH IS RIGHT BUT IT IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT DOES YOUR RELIGION SAY ABOUT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE"

Do you understand?

I didn't say that they do not say what happens to non-believers. I apologize if that is the way it came across. What I meant was this is not normally addressed on such sites as religioustolerance.org and a few of the other sites that attempt to tell you the beliefs of all the religions. To me this seems interesting. The biggest question I have for any religion and person who believes different than me. What does your religion say about the good person who does not believe.

For example Mormonism says that all go to hheaven except the worst people in society. mass murderers. serial killers. terrorist. really the worst people in society. Now everyone else will goto heaven and get a chance to hear the Mormon doctrine. only the select few who did everything right according to the Mormon doctrine will become God of their own planet.

So the way I would see this. i live a good life and I am okay. don't suffer in hell according to their religion but make it at least to heaven. so why waste my time because the opposite is what if they are wrong. What if another religion is right. then I wasted my time. More or less its an expansion of pascals wager. not so much a belief in God. But using it to apply to religion in General. if you are okay by living a Good life. no harm in moving on and researching the ones that may hold a different theology. As trunner pointed out. all those who do not accept Jesus are doomed well that to me should be worth looking into. Do you not agree?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

Aye and one mankind stepped in before he looked at it...

Hence the thousands of ripples.

Good analogy. Very true.

So in other words, you are saying that you view religion as a gamble. You'll just believe in whichever religion sounds the most threatening in case it might be right?

Is that what religion means to you?

What if another religion comes along tomorrow that has a worse threat? Would you then convert?

Also, wouldn't it be important to you that your God is at least as highly moral as you are? Would you cast someone into an eternal hell fire for having guessed wrong in a God-plays-hide-and-seek guessing game?

For me, such a God would have a far lesser morals than myself. So this bring up some very serious questions?

1. Why should the creator of this universe be less moral than me?

2. Do I truly want to worship and serve a deity that has lesser morals than myself?

3. How nasty can a God be before it becomes a demon?

Mediterrenean Mythologies have done their job well. They have instilled fear into the public for thousands of years. It is either believe or perish or stay in eternal hell!

and just think that more then half of the world believes this!

What ashame that is.

May you believe what you like, but in the end will it make you happy?

If not then it is time to believe in something much more positive that will not only shed happiness to yourself but also to others.

What is it that I am talking about?

To believe in ..... yourself!

Good luck fellow Minglers on the path you choose.

I have noticed that those who stop doing an addictive behavior because of their own choice, tend to see anyone still doing that behavior as horrible and as someone who should be pounced on, so to speak, at any opportunity.
Alcoholics who stop drinking tend to want to keep anyone else from drinking.
Smokers who stop smoking tend to be rabid anti-tobacco people.
Religionists who stop believing tend to be rabid anti-religionists.

Ain't human nature a funny thing?
Fortunatly, I still smoke, drink, and I've never had a religious belief.

OK buddy, I see our misdirection. well, Im an atheist so I still stick to my original statement that we are energy that changes form.

Religion is a deeply personnal choice to people and the product of years of instillment by the family, peers and community.

But when you say "good life", we need to look at what comprises that sort of life. Is it merely following all human laws to a "t", being nice to all for your entire life and helping all those that you can in your power? That seems like a nice life, in that YOU get the personnal satisfaction that YOU are not a "bad" person. why do you need validation?

Now, as to a "bad life", this can get a little grey. Circumstance is tricky when we make choices in life. Is a murder wrong if you are truly defending yourself from being murdered? Is cruelty or revenge wrong when you finally snap & crack from others treating you poorly? This can go on and on, I think ultimetly it resides in the person if they feel they have lived an appropriate life.

Now as to the comment on all those that deny jesus burn in hell, I feel that is really BLEEPED up. The message there is not one of love, but an ultimatum: EITHER you are with this god OR you are against it. I feel that life is not so cut and dry. You are basically forced into subservience through fear of recrimination in an afterlife that NO ONE is really sure exists. Im just a human, so I can't really see the big picture, but the piece Im given to look at ( the arguement here) leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

yeah, what he said!

According to the bible if you die and you are not a Christian you are going straight to hell fire . So you are either a Christian or you go to hell . .

Sorry folks double post .

According to His Holiness Christ...

the mansion has many rooms...

enough for all of us.

The other stuff is an example of twisting a message by intrepretation.

I have always found it highly amusing when a religous fanatic dies they leave this planet with their last words apologizing on how they treated people when telling them they will go to a hell or a worse place because they don't believe the way they do or because a scripture man had written.

It is too bad that those who are not of the same idealogy have to hear this from a religious fanatic or follower when dying to show that all humans are unique regardless of what they practice individually for their soul or happiness. That in their mind should be thinking that everyone should go to a better place and those who did wrong are forgiven by a higher intelligence or power because it is the bravest and most difficult thing to do for most mortals to do.

For me personally, I would like to believe that every single soul after death goes somewhere good regardless in what spiritual or religious idealogy they found to be good for themselves.

And it is no secret that this alone will be refuted by some religous fanatics, but ask yourself truly, do you really want a person to suffer in a abyss just because they don't do or believe in the same idealogy as you do? That is the reason why wars start because of such thinking. Change your ways and perhaps there will be more tolerance and peace for many around the world.

May you find internal serenity and practice the importance of positive energy and peacemaking in the near future.