I have always found it highly amusing when a religous fanatic dies they leave this planet with their last words apologizing on how they treated people when telling them they will go to a hell or a worse place because they don't believe the way they do or because a scripture man had written.

It is too bad that those who are not of the same idealogy have to hear this from a religious fanatic or follower when dying to show that all humans are unique regardless of what they practice individually for their soul or happiness. That in their mind should be thinking that everyone should go to a better place and those who did wrong are forgiven by a higher intelligence or power because it is the bravest and most difficult thing to do for most mortals to do.

For me personally, I would like to believe that every single soul after death goes somewhere good regardless in what spiritual or religious idealogy they found to be good for themselves.

And it is no secret that this alone will be refuted by some religous fanatics, but ask yourself truly, do you really want a person to suffer in a abyss just because they don't do or believe in the same idealogy as you do? That is the reason why wars start because of such thinking. Change your ways and perhaps there will be more tolerance and peace for many around the world.

May you find internal serenity and practice the importance of positive energy and peacemaking in the near future.

The problem with accepting Christ as my Savior is that it necessarily means that I must also accept that God is a desperate idiot who can't handle situations wisely.

In order to accept that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of Yahweh, I'd first have to believe that Yahweh is in an egotistical war with a fallen angel, and that Yahweh is clearly desperate. So desperate that he had no choice but to sacrifice his own son in a bloody appeasement to himself just to prove something to Satan.

I'd also have to believe that Yahweh solves all his problems using violent methods (because that's what the Old Testament stories reveal to us).

So ultimately I'd have to accept that God is stupid and can't solve any problem using truly wise and constructive methods.

I'd also have to believe that Yahweh is both consistent, dependable and trustworthy (because the Bible says he must be) yet I'd have to simultaneoulsy believe that God is confused and never does things the same way twice (because that's what the stories in the Bible demand is true).

For example, at one point when mankind became sinful God simply wiped out the entire population of humanity via a flood and saved only a few people and some animals in a boat.

But then later (after his first method didn't work) he decided to send his son to be butchered on a pole to save mankind from sin.

Well, clearly if I am going to accept Christ as my "Savior" I must also accept that Yahweh is confused and is desperately trying differnt things experimentally at random.

Since his first method didn't work, there's really no reason why I should place anymore faith in his second experiment. Clearly Yahweh has no clue how to solve problems. He's already displayed gross ignorance and no wisdom at all.

Well, clearly this whole story has no more credibility than the stories of Zeus. Another God who was appeased by blood sacrifices for by some strange coincidence.

Although I don't think it was ever claimed that Zeus was all-wise. I think he was also assumed to have human frailties like a jealous personality, etc. Plus Zeus wasn't a male chauvinistic pig.

So by comparing these two ancient myths it sure looks like Zeus was both wiser and more highly moral than Yawhew.

It is claimed that Yawhew is supposed to be perfect, but the first thing out of his mouth is the commandment, "Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me for I am a jealous God".

Well, jealousy is not a perfect personality trait, so he already stuck his own foot in his mouth before the mythology even got off the ground. His very first commandment proclaims that he has an imperfect human personality.

The whole mythology just shot itself in the foot right off the bat.

Yahweh couldn't possibly be the all-wise all-perfect creator of this universe, and therefore Jesus could not possible be his sacrifical lamb.

Next!

I have ejoyed this thread, and especially Abba's posts, because the frankly make sense, where religion have never made any.

Me too!

Anyway, it's 'General Religion'. It's where the long posts are. Because it's a real discussion, unlike the TPAY'S and "I'm board" threads. (Yes, I spelled it incorrectly on purpose)

I agree about the real discussion part, but dang it I am going to go to sleep wondering what the heck TPAY's is... LOL

I didn't say that they do not say what happens to non-believers. I apologize if that is the way it came across. What I meant was this is not normally addressed on such sites as religioustolerance.org and a few of the other sites that attempt to tell you the beliefs of all the religions. To me this seems interesting. The biggest question I have for any religion and person who believes different than me. What does your religion say about the good person who does not believe.

For example Mormonism says that all go to hheaven except the worst people in society. mass murderers. serial killers. terrorist. really the worst people in society. Now everyone else will goto heaven and get a chance to hear the Mormon doctrine. only the select few who did everything right according to the Mormon doctrine will become God of their own planet.

So the way I would see this. i live a good life and I am okay. don't suffer in hell according to their religion but make it at least to heaven. so why waste my time because the opposite is what if they are wrong. What if another religion is right. then I wasted my time. More or less its an expansion of pascals wager. not so much a belief in God. But using it to apply to religion in General. if you are okay by living a Good life. no harm in moving on and researching the ones that may hold a different theology. As trunner pointed out. all those who do not accept Jesus are doomed well that to me should be worth looking into. Do you not agree?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

OK buddy, I see our misdirection. well, Im an atheist so I still stick to my original statement that we are energy that changes form.

Religion is a deeply personnal choice to people and the product of years of instillment by the family, peers and community.

But when you say "good life", we need to look at what comprises that sort of life. Is it merely following all human laws to a "t", being nice to all for your entire life and helping all those that you can in your power? That seems like a nice life, in that YOU get the personnal satisfaction that YOU are not a "bad" person. why do you need validation?

Now, as to a "bad life", this can get a little grey. Circumstance is tricky when we make choices in life. Is a murder wrong if you are truly defending yourself from being murdered? Is cruelty or revenge wrong when you finally snap & crack from others treating you poorly? This can go on and on, I think ultimetly it resides in the person if they feel they have lived an appropriate life.

Now as to the comment on all those that deny jesus burn in hell, I feel that is really BLEEPED up. The message there is not one of love, but an ultimatum: EITHER you are with this god OR you are against it. I feel that life is not so cut and dry. You are basically forced into subservience through fear of recrimination in an afterlife that NO ONE is really sure exists. Im just a human, so I can't really see the big picture, but the piece Im given to look at ( the arguement here) leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Question on your definition of religion. if it is "the product of years of installment by the family, peers and community", then why are there atheists? All societies of the past had a belief in religion. so if always the same values are taught over and over who is teaching the values of atheism?

Also if each person determines if they lived appropriately well everyone has. How many people live day by day selling crack to kids. sexually exploiting women, etc. they all live an appropriate life if you ask them. They can justify everything they do.

I would address the rest but we are going off topic. instead i will email the response and we can talk there.

interesting post but it brings up a few question. first. the intention of this post if you had read it from the begiing would be that we are just seeing what everyone's beliefs are. not what is right or wrong. just see what their beliefs say about those who do not believe. so had you been following along you would have seen that. Instead it appears you just did a find (ctrl+f)and looked for the first post with reference to Christ and attacked that. which brings me to the second question. why do you always look to attack something you do not believe in. If it were religion in general you would attack more than just christian beliefs. I suspect the christian religion or someone who has twisted the religion has hurt you in some way. Would you like to expand on this?

to address one of your questions, "Why are there atheists?"
Some are raised that way. Some become that way after realizing that all they've been told about some belief system isn't necessarily true.

Right I understand that part. but the question was if no one was teaching it how did it come about. The response was to a previous post where they had said that peoples belief in religion came from what they were taught, by family peers and community. I know this is not always the case. For example take the northern Sudan area. Just by claiming to be a anything but Islam there you can receive the death sentence. So how would people like that choose anything but Islam? Yet they still do. So many people in the rest of the world. Often turn from their family and communities religion with fear of death in order to follow the christian religion. So to say people just choose because they were taught that by family peers and community may be valid in the US. but is certainly not valid in other parts of the world.

Why do the wealthy complain the most about religion? Don't think you are wealthy. get a new perspective. the site i listed shows where your salary is at compared to the rest of the world.
http://globalrichlist.com/

Why do you take it so personally. It's not an attack at all. He could have spent far less time if he wanted to just attack something. He makes very good points, better than what I could have done. Of course I also agree with him.

How did it come about? By being able to think for oneself.