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| Topic: what do you believe? | |
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Lets see, they go play in the Elysium Fields, Summerlands, etc, whatever you want to call it. Course, I believe we really just morph back into atoms and are "reborn" as something else. Doesn't make a big deal whether good or bad... |
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Edited by
Flatline
on
Fri 08/28/09 04:24 PM
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I worked as a nurseryman part time when I was still in college. One morning an anxious and slightly beer-buzzed home gardener came in and said he was very worried about his tomatoes.
Atheists, he said, had arrived almost overnight and now the foliage of his prize tomatoes were covered with them. "Danmed atheists," he said, "what am I to do about them." I agreed with him that atheists on his tomatoes were certainly not to be ignored. If he were environmentally sensitive, I told him, he could use soapy water to flush them from the plants, or, if he was prudent in its use and didn't use it often, an insecticide could be used to good effect. A week later he returned to say he had used the most benign chemical athiest killer he could find, and the result had been dramatic. There was not an atheist to be found in his tomatoe rows. I'm not saying it's for everybody, but it worked for him. |
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Question on your definition of religion. if it is "the product of years of installment by the family, peers and community", then why are there atheists? All societies of the past had a belief in religion. so if always the same values are taught over and over who is teaching the values of atheism?
Atheism is not the lack of belief in a religion, its the lack of belief in god.
Also if each person determines if they lived appropriately well everyone has. How many people live day by day selling crack to kids. sexually exploiting women, etc. they all live an appropriate life if you ask them. They can justify everything they do. I would address the rest but we are going off topic. instead i will email the response and we can talk there. |
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I realize that. My point was if people only follow what they are taught and what society teaches than atheism could not exist since past cultures and nations were highly dominated by religion. Not everyone who chooses religion does it because it was what they were taught. obviously, people don't only follow. some lead. And a very few just sorta wander off in their own direction. 
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Edited by
Arcamedees
on
Sat 08/29/09 12:54 PM
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How did it come about? By being able to think for oneself. I realize that. My point was if people only follow what they are taught and what society teaches than atheism could not exist since past cultures and nations were highly dominated by religion. Not everyone who chooses religion does it because it was what they were taught. So to the question of what me definition of religion is? Come on, we're in the general religion chat area, it's pretty clear  That was a little glib, sorry, but anything that has to do with spirituality is "religion", not something you do over and over "religously".
Why are there atheists? That was how I was raised, to not believe in a higher power, I was always taught to always depend on Numero Uno, which is myself. I dont resent the upbringing, it's left me selfsufficient and Ive turned out to be a pretty decent person. I feel that its how you are raised as to what your views are and when you get older, you have EVERY right to decide for yourself. I should leave this next part for your email, but what the heck! One reason Im an atheist is Im gay. I refuse to bend a knee to any religion that has already promised me an eternity in a fryer basket for something I have NO control over. I've heard so often from many religous people just how sick,disgusting,abominable and unnatural I am soley based on me being gay. And I've been told that there is no hope, even though the Arms of Love open wide, just not wide enough for me. That's all. Later! I, too, was raised w/o any dogma or any particular belief system. Also, to their credit, my parents allowed me to make my own decisions regarding what I would believe. As a child, they allowed me to go to various churches with various friends (w/o my parents). On the whole, I found them to be laughable....and sad (not to mention filled w/ hypocritical a-holes). I also tend to agree w/ the opinion that raising a child "religiously" is a form of child abuse, along the same vein as not reading to a child and not making them wear seat-belts. Thinking for one's self is not a common thing. More's the pity. My condolences for being gay. Not because you're gay, but because of the way people in this country treat anyone who isn't just like everyone else. And the more different, the worse it gets. But I'm sure they'll get forgiven on Sunday.... Except for potential mates, I've never understood why anyone would give a crap what genitalia someone fancies. But then again, I don't really understand much of what humanity does... |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Sat 08/29/09 01:10 PM
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Boo wrote:
And having grown up in a so called Christian family I can also see why it might very well be called child abuse. I think it is as well. No child should be taught any dogma until they are old enough to make up their own minds what they choose to believe. You can teach the basics of ethics to a young child with out getting into biblical rhetoric that can't be proved much less authenticated. Absolutely! 
Lying to young children isn't nice, and to tell them that the Bible is the word of God or that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God who was nail to a pole to pay for their sins is absolutely a lie because no human on planet Earth knows that there is any truth to this claim whatsoever. I've read the book and it sure looks to me like the Jesus character (whether an actual historical figure or not) was nailed to the pole for blaspheme and for having rejected the previous teachings of "God" (Yahweh). So the idea that he was sent by Yahweh as a sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of man doesn't even look plausible to me, much less credible. So teaching children that God is so heartless and nasty that he would have his own son nailed to a pole is pretty sick IMHO. I've known quite a few people who have confessed that as a child this story traumatized them. Not because they felt guilty about anything. They were just traumatized by the whole idea that God could be so heartless, cruel, and utterly stupid. How can a person look up to a supreme being who's so stupid that the only way he can figure out to solve problems it by using horrible violent methods? What a dissapointment to discover that our surpreme creator isn't even as wise as some mortal humans. Ironically, Christianity has caused a whole lot of people to become hardcore atheists. They don't even want to hear about any "God" after having been traumatized by Christianity. I don't blame them. This religion should definitely be listed under 'child abuse' as far as I'm concerned. 
What the hell, it's even based on a God who abuses his child. Sick, sick, sick. 
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While researching various religions I have come across something interesting that is hardly addressed. Fist most sites indicate what happens to a person who believes that particular religion. what I find that is not talked about is what happens to those who do not believe. So i pose this question to everyone. According to the religion you practice what happens to the person who has lived a good life and dies but does not believe your religion? It's interesting you say that the religions on't say what happens to non-believers. All the ones I researched in the judeo-christian realm all say that non-believers burn in hell, gnash teeth and are flung into outer darkness. They say the non-blievers deserve this because they have "denied a god", whatever that means. We are energy and condensed energy, i.e. matter. Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, it can only change forms. I didn't say that they do not say what happens to non-believers. I apologize if that is the way it came across. What I meant was this is not normally addressed on such sites as religioustolerance.org and a few of the other sites that attempt to tell you the beliefs of all the religions. To me this seems interesting. The biggest question I have for any religion and person who believes different than me. What does your religion say about the good person who does not believe. For example Mormonism says that all go to hheaven except the worst people in society. mass murderers. serial killers. terrorist. really the worst people in society. Now everyone else will goto heaven and get a chance to hear the Mormon doctrine. only the select few who did everything right according to the Mormon doctrine will become God of their own planet. So the way I would see this. i live a good life and I am okay. don't suffer in hell according to their religion but make it at least to heaven. so why waste my time because the opposite is what if they are wrong. What if another religion is right. then I wasted my time. More or less its an expansion of pascals wager. not so much a belief in God. But using it to apply to religion in General. if you are okay by living a Good life. no harm in moving on and researching the ones that may hold a different theology. As trunner pointed out. all those who do not accept Jesus are doomed well that to me should be worth looking into. Do you not agree? http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ Religion is a deeply personnal choice to people and the product of years of instillment by the family, peers and community. But when you say "good life", we need to look at what comprises that sort of life. Is it merely following all human laws to a "t", being nice to all for your entire life and helping all those that you can in your power? That seems like a nice life, in that YOU get the personnal satisfaction that YOU are not a "bad" person. why do you need validation? Now, as to a "bad life", this can get a little grey. Circumstance is tricky when we make choices in life. Is a murder wrong if you are truly defending yourself from being murdered? Is cruelty or revenge wrong when you finally snap & crack from others treating you poorly? This can go on and on, I think ultimetly it resides in the person if they feel they have lived an appropriate life. Now as to the comment on all those that deny jesus burn in hell, I feel that is really BLEEPED up. The message there is not one of love, but an ultimatum: EITHER you are with this god OR you are against it. I feel that life is not so cut and dry. You are basically forced into subservience through fear of recrimination in an afterlife that NO ONE is really sure exists. Im just a human, so I can't really see the big picture, but the piece Im given to look at ( the arguement here) leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Question on your definition of religion. if it is "the product of years of installment by the family, peers and community", then why are there atheists? All societies of the past had a belief in religion. so if always the same values are taught over and over who is teaching the values of atheism? Also if each person determines if they lived appropriately well everyone has. How many people live day by day selling crack to kids. sexually exploiting women, etc. they all live an appropriate life if you ask them. They can justify everything they do. I would address the rest but we are going off topic. instead i will email the response and we can talk there. to address one of your questions, "Why are there atheists?" Some are raised that way. Some become that way after realizing that all they've been told about some belief system isn't necessarily true. Right I understand that part. but the question was if no one was teaching it how did it come about. The response was to a previous post where they had said that peoples belief in religion came from what they were taught, by family peers and community. I know this is not always the case. For example take the northern Sudan area. Just by claiming to be a anything but Islam there you can receive the death sentence. So how would people like that choose anything but Islam? Yet they still do. So many people in the rest of the world. Often turn from their family and communities religion with fear of death in order to follow the christian religion. So to say people just choose because they were taught that by family peers and community may be valid in the US. but is certainly not valid in other parts of the world. Why do the wealthy complain the most about religion? Don't think you are wealthy. get a new perspective. the site i listed shows where your salary is at compared to the rest of the world. http://globalrichlist.com/ How did it come about? By being able to think for oneself. I realize that. My point was if people only follow what they are taught and what society teaches than atheism could not exist since past cultures and nations were highly dominated by religion. Not everyone who chooses religion does it because it was what they were taught. So to the question of what me definition of religion is? Come on, we're in the general religion chat area, it's pretty clear That was a little glib, sorry, but anything that has to do with spirituality is "religion", not something you do over and over "religously".
Why are there atheists? That was how I was raised, to not believe in a higher power, I was always taught to always depend on Numero Uno, which is myself. I dont resent the upbringing, it's left me selfsufficient and Ive turned out to be a pretty decent person. I feel that its how you are raised as to what your views are and when you get older, you have EVERY right to decide for yourself. I should leave this next part for your email, but what the heck! One reason Im an atheist is Im gay. I refuse to bend a knee to any religion that has already promised me an eternity in a fryer basket for something I have NO control over. I've heard so often from many religous people just how sick,disgusting,abominable and unnatural I am soley based on me being gay. And I've been told that there is no hope, even though the Arms of Love open wide, just not wide enough for me. That's all. Later! Okay I do feel for you. Whoever told you there is no hope for you because you are gay is full of it and doesn't believe their own religion. I believe that you being gay either by design or choice is no different then the people who are judgmental they struggle with a different issue the issue of judging others. Everyone has some characteristic that is unique to them. Is this anything new? not at all. I work with a lot of diverse people. some gay, some straight, some whatever. I do not treat them any different because of their sexual orientation. Honestly if that is their only complaint about someone than they should be overjoyed. My beliefs teach me all these things are equal in the eyes of God A lie, being judgmental, rage, abuse, murder. I also believe that the Grace of Christ is sufficient to cover this. No where in the teachings of Christ does he say that one sin is not greater than another. So for those self-righteous Christians you have dealt with I hope they realize that the judging that they have done is just as bad as the sin they accuse you of. Just to let you know I also believe that I am no where near perfect. I know I will never be there either. So if you would like I would love to introduce you to the Christianity I know. Not the one that has been accusing you in the past. email me and we can talk more. |
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While researching various religions I have come across something interesting that is hardly addressed. Fist most sites indicate what happens to a person who believes that particular religion. what I find that is not talked about is what happens to those who do not believe. So i pose this question to everyone. According to the religion you practice what happens to the person who has lived a good life and dies but does not believe your religion? It's interesting you say that the religions on't say what happens to non-believers. All the ones I researched in the judeo-christian realm all say that non-believers burn in hell, gnash teeth and are flung into outer darkness. They say the non-blievers deserve this because they have "denied a god", whatever that means. We are energy and condensed energy, i.e. matter. Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, it can only change forms. I didn't say that they do not say what happens to non-believers. I apologize if that is the way it came across. What I meant was this is not normally addressed on such sites as religioustolerance.org and a few of the other sites that attempt to tell you the beliefs of all the religions. To me this seems interesting. The biggest question I have for any religion and person who believes different than me. What does your religion say about the good person who does not believe. For example Mormonism says that all go to hheaven except the worst people in society. mass murderers. serial killers. terrorist. really the worst people in society. Now everyone else will goto heaven and get a chance to hear the Mormon doctrine. only the select few who did everything right according to the Mormon doctrine will become God of their own planet. So the way I would see this. i live a good life and I am okay. don't suffer in hell according to their religion but make it at least to heaven. so why waste my time because the opposite is what if they are wrong. What if another religion is right. then I wasted my time. More or less its an expansion of pascals wager. not so much a belief in God. But using it to apply to religion in General. if you are okay by living a Good life. no harm in moving on and researching the ones that may hold a different theology. As trunner pointed out. all those who do not accept Jesus are doomed well that to me should be worth looking into. Do you not agree? http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ Religion is a deeply personnal choice to people and the product of years of instillment by the family, peers and community. But when you say "good life", we need to look at what comprises that sort of life. Is it merely following all human laws to a "t", being nice to all for your entire life and helping all those that you can in your power? That seems like a nice life, in that YOU get the personnal satisfaction that YOU are not a "bad" person. why do you need validation? Now, as to a "bad life", this can get a little grey. Circumstance is tricky when we make choices in life. Is a murder wrong if you are truly defending yourself from being murdered? Is cruelty or revenge wrong when you finally snap & crack from others treating you poorly? This can go on and on, I think ultimetly it resides in the person if they feel they have lived an appropriate life. Now as to the comment on all those that deny jesus burn in hell, I feel that is really BLEEPED up. The message there is not one of love, but an ultimatum: EITHER you are with this god OR you are against it. I feel that life is not so cut and dry. You are basically forced into subservience through fear of recrimination in an afterlife that NO ONE is really sure exists. Im just a human, so I can't really see the big picture, but the piece Im given to look at ( the arguement here) leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Question on your definition of religion. if it is "the product of years of installment by the family, peers and community", then why are there atheists? All societies of the past had a belief in religion. so if always the same values are taught over and over who is teaching the values of atheism? Also if each person determines if they lived appropriately well everyone has. How many people live day by day selling crack to kids. sexually exploiting women, etc. they all live an appropriate life if you ask them. They can justify everything they do. I would address the rest but we are going off topic. instead i will email the response and we can talk there. to address one of your questions, "Why are there atheists?" Some are raised that way. Some become that way after realizing that all they've been told about some belief system isn't necessarily true. Right I understand that part. but the question was if no one was teaching it how did it come about. The response was to a previous post where they had said that peoples belief in religion came from what they were taught, by family peers and community. I know this is not always the case. For example take the northern Sudan area. Just by claiming to be a anything but Islam there you can receive the death sentence. So how would people like that choose anything but Islam? Yet they still do. So many people in the rest of the world. Often turn from their family and communities religion with fear of death in order to follow the christian religion. So to say people just choose because they were taught that by family peers and community may be valid in the US. but is certainly not valid in other parts of the world. Why do the wealthy complain the most about religion? Don't think you are wealthy. get a new perspective. the site i listed shows where your salary is at compared to the rest of the world. http://globalrichlist.com/ How did it come about? By being able to think for oneself. I realize that. My point was if people only follow what they are taught and what society teaches than atheism could not exist since past cultures and nations were highly dominated by religion. Not everyone who chooses religion does it because it was what they were taught. So to the question of what me definition of religion is? Come on, we're in the general religion chat area, it's pretty clear That was a little glib, sorry, but anything that has to do with spirituality is "religion", not something you do over and over "religously".
Why are there atheists? That was how I was raised, to not believe in a higher power, I was always taught to always depend on Numero Uno, which is myself. I dont resent the upbringing, it's left me selfsufficient and Ive turned out to be a pretty decent person. I feel that its how you are raised as to what your views are and when you get older, you have EVERY right to decide for yourself. I should leave this next part for your email, but what the heck! One reason Im an atheist is Im gay. I refuse to bend a knee to any religion that has already promised me an eternity in a fryer basket for something I have NO control over. I've heard so often from many religous people just how sick,disgusting,abominable and unnatural I am soley based on me being gay. And I've been told that there is no hope, even though the Arms of Love open wide, just not wide enough for me. That's all. Later! Okay I do feel for you. Whoever told you there is no hope for you because you are gay is full of it and doesn't believe their own religion. I believe that you being gay either by design or choice is no different then the people who are judgmental they struggle with a different issue the issue of judging others. Everyone has some characteristic that is unique to them. Is this anything new? not at all. I work with a lot of diverse people. some gay, some straight, some whatever. I do not treat them any different because of their sexual orientation. Honestly if that is their only complaint about someone than they should be overjoyed. My beliefs teach me all these things are equal in the eyes of God A lie, being judgmental, rage, abuse, murder. I also believe that the Grace of Christ is sufficient to cover this. No where in the teachings of Christ does he say that one sin is not greater than another. So for those self-righteous Christians you have dealt with I hope they realize that the judging that they have done is just as bad as the sin they accuse you of. Just to let you know I also believe that I am no where near perfect. I know I will never be there either. So if you would like I would love to introduce you to the Christianity I know. Not the one that has been accusing you in the past. email me and we can talk more. wow. An actual open-minded AND non-judgemental christian. Do you have any idea how rare you are? You should start your own religion.  
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I think that if more christians were more like Jon85213, I wouldn't have to struggle with my own anti-christian bias.
And yes, I have a bias. Unlike most people, I'm willing to admit I have one. However, I do try not to let it influence my decisions per individual. If you're wondering why I have that particular bias, think of it this way. If everytime you walked out of your house, you got punched in the head from someone wearing a blue shirt, pretty soon you'd start hating anyone wearing a blue shirt. Now substitute "blue shirt" with "christian cross" and you get the idea. One of the bumperstickers I have on my car says, "God, protect me from your followers!" |
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I think that if more christians were more like Jon85213, I wouldn't have to struggle with my own anti-christian bias. Well, you should be happy then because Christianity is indeed moving very rapidly in that direction. The "organized Religion" is quickly dying. Designer Christians are becoming the norm rather than the exception. More and more poeple who call themselves 'Christians' are actually denouncing the official religion. This was bound to happen. After all, the whole basis of Protestantism is to protest against the orthodox. Protestantism began by people protesting against Catholicism and the Pope. They they started protesting against each other and continued to fall into so many denominations that it requires a computer just to list them all. Those denominantions are continuing to fall apart into actual indivdiual who reject the whole religion and all they kept was Jesus and the label "Christian". Anyone can call themselves a "Christian". I could do it. But I don't want to even support that label anymore. Besides my "Christianity" would denounce that Jesus was the sacrifical lamb of Yahwah. Most people would claim that I took my Protestantism just a tad too far.
But who's to say where the line is when a person is Protesting? |
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I have no respect for the morman religion. They take every religion on earth mix it up and call it their own. How fake is that. I belive in the bible and God and people should read the bible before they make statements. Faith is something you have not actual prof of you either belive it or you don't and that goes with everything not just religion.
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I belive in the bible and God and people should read the bible before they make statements.
I agree. If they are going to comment directly on the book they should certainly read it and even study it. However, I think it's also fair for some people to simlpy comment on what religions proclaim without having to read their book. After all the story is pretty obvious by now. 1. God creates a perfect heaven with angels 2. The angels rebell and disagree that heaven is 'perfect' 3. God casts them out with their leader Satan 4. God creates humans 5. Satan sneaks in the garden without God's permission or knowledge 6. Satan temps 7. Mankind falls from grace 8. All humans are now sinners 9. God, a stable unchanging deity, floods out the planet to deal with sin saving a few people on a boat. 10. Those few people replenish the Earth with more sinners. 11. God, a stable unchanging deity, has his son nailed to a pole to deal with sin 12. Mankind continues to be sinners There really isn't much need to read the book to see that this whole story overall is all about a God who can't control his creation and has no clue how to save it. He apparently tries different things (all of which are extremely violent) and he still isn't having much success. He screwed up with his angels, and now he's screwing up with his humans. He can't seem to do anything right ever. No need to read the book. This is just the overall story that the religion supports. Faith is something you have not actual prof of you either belive it or you don't and that goes with everything not just religion. Faith in what? That's the big question here. When I read the Old Testament I'd have to put my faith in a bunch of authors that I've never met that they actually speak for "God". Why should I do that? Instead I read what they say and ask if it makes sense. My answer to that is absolutely NO. What they claim about God is totally contradicting to what they claim God is supposed to represent. In the Book of Job they have God taking Satan up on a bet. They also have Satan asking for permission before he screws over people makeing Satan appear to be a very obedient angel rather than a fallen angel who's God's enemy. Also, why would God need to "test" Job's loyalty? God is supposed to be all-knowing and know what is in the hearts of men. The very idea that God would need to "test" someone's loyalty suggests that God isn't all-knowing, nor does God even have the ability to trust anyone. It's just flies in the face of what these authors have claimed God is supposed to be. When we get to the New Testament it gets even worse. I'm suppose to put my faith in these authors? They have Jesus totally denouncing the ways of Yahweh, not supporting them. Jesus denouncing the judging of others and the stoning to death of sinners. Yahweh DEMANDED that we do this! Jesus said we should turn the other cheek and forgive our trespassers. Yahweh taught us to seek revenge as in "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" Why should I believe that Jesus had anything at all to do with Yahweh? The Gospels don't support this at all. Moreover, this would also be a horrible reflection on Yahweh. In the Old Testament he commamnds his followers to murder heathens. A heathen is defined as anyone who disagrees with his teachings (i.e. everything that the authors of the Old Testament had written as the 'word of God') And then supposedly he sends his only begotten son into this crowd to reject the teachings of the Old Testament. Anyone who nailed Jesus to a pole was only doing what Yahweh commanded them to do. So if Jesus was the Son of Yahweh, then Yahweh is an idiot. In more ways that one! He'd be sending mixed commands for one thing. But God is supposed to be stable, unchanging, and TRUSTWORTHY! But a God who sends mixed messages and keeps changing what he expects from us is neither stable nor trustworthy. He supposedly even changed how he deals with sin. Flooding out sinners at one point, and then having his son nailed to a pole as a sacrifice to Satan the next. In fact, that's a big question right there! Why would an all-wise, all-powerful, God have to 'sacrifice' anything? And who is it that he's making the sacrifice TO? Clearly he's not making the sacrifice TO mankind. That makes no sense at all. The idea of blood sacrifices in the first place was to appease God. God would have no reason to appease man. So who was 'appeased' by the this blood sacrifice? If God was appeasing Satan this implies that God is desperate and considered Satan a REAL THREAT. On the other hand if God is appeasing himself that becomes so sadistic that it makes God out to be truly sick. As far as I'm concerned there's a FAR BETTER EXPLANTION! Jesus was a mortal man who tried to teach people brotherly love and he was rejecting the nasty horrible ways of the ancient mythology of Yahway (the Old Testament). Poor Jesus was charged with blaspheme and nailed to a pole (as per the commandments of the God of the Old Testament). The story of Jesus become famous and people were saying that he was wrongfully crucified because all he did was preace love in the face of a horrible supersition cult based on Yahweh. So the authoritarian wrote the New Testament and claimed to SPEAK FOR JESUS and tried to make it look like Jesus was actually the sacrificial lamb of Yahweh thus re-estabishingly their violent horrible Old Testamant! And they demanded that anyone who doesn't believe THEIR VERSION of the story will be MURDERED BY THE SWORD. And the crusades were born! I have completely FAITH that this is indeed what happened to poor Jesus. So you have FAITH that the authors of the New Testament SPEAK for Jesus. I have FAITH that they don't. 
Like you say, it's ALL a matter of FAITH.
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To the person above me your and idiot. Everyone has faith in your car to get you where your going and other things etc. God also gave us free will and he can control his creation he can do anything he chooses anytime he chooses. You just don't get it thats ok though you probably never will.
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To the person above me your and idiot. Everyone has faith in your car to get you where your going and other things etc. God also gave us free will and he can control his creation he can do anything he chooses anytime he chooses. You just don't get it thats ok though you probably never will. YEAHHHHH!! follow my religion or you're an idiot!! |
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To the person above me your and idiot. Everyone has faith in your car to get you where your going and other things etc. God also gave us free will and he can control his creation he can do anything he chooses anytime he chooses. You just don't get it thats ok though you probably never will. Thank you for reading my post. But what you've just said doesn't make any sense. You say that God can do anything he chooses anytime he chooses. But that would mean that he could solve problems without violent methods and communicate with his creation without ambiguity. The idea that a God who can do anything he chooses anytime he chooses would need to 'sacrifice' his Son as a Blood Sacrifice is absurd don't you think? Who would this God have been trying to appease by this sacrifice? Mankind? God needs to appease sinful men? 
That makes no sense. Satan? God needs to sacarifice his son to appease a fallen demonic angel? Again that makes no sense for a God who can do anything he chooses any time he chooses. The only thing left to appease is himself. But a God who goes around being appeased by having people nailed to poles would himself be a demonic God. It doesn't make any sense no matter how we try to look at it. The only thing that makes sense is that this story is just as ficticious as the stories of Zeus (yet another God that was appeased by blood sacarifices). Don't you think that it makes far more sense that Jesus was a very wise man who saw how absurd (and violent) this story is and so he basically denounced it? After all, according to this story people were indeed still stoning each other based on the myths of Yahweh. Jesus saw that this was a horrible thing and tried to teach people to forgive each other instead. This flies in the very face of Yahweh. Why would Yahweh send his only begotten Son to come to Earth and denounce his very own commandments? Doesn't that make sense to you? You're the one who's calling me an idiot. I respect your view, but I ask you to consider precisely why you think I might be an idiot. I'm just considering the absurdities that are in the Bible. I'm not making them up. Like you've said, I read the book and this is basically what the story is saying overall. Also what sense does it make that the Virgin Mary was sinless? If that's true then why didn't God create Adam and Mary instead of Adam and Eve? Then we wouldn't be in this pickle in the first place. You'll probably say because God can do anything he damn well chooses. But still, why would it be our fault that God fixed Adam up with that wretched Eve instead of fixing him up with Mary? He could have saved everyone a lot of heartache and not have had to sacrifice his own Son later to pay for his own stupid mistake of creation. Clearly if God can do anything he chooses anytime he chooses then we aren't responsible for a single solitary thing. God is responsible for the whole mess. I'm really only asking you why I should put my FAITH in the idea that God is an idiot when I could choose to put my FAITH in the idea that Yahweh wasn't God at all, and the REAL Goddess isn't that stupid. Look at the Wiccans. They worship a very intelligent female deity who simply says, "Do as ye will and harm none". You don't see her going around having any of her daughters nailed to pole. In fact, she doesn't even have any fallen angels to be at war with. As a spiritual tradition it just sounds far more intelligent don't you think? I mean I'm not trying to convert you to Wicca. I personally don't buy into any formal religions myself. But I'm just saying that if you're going to put your FAITH in folklore why not at least choose a sane God who doesn't go around trying to solve everything using violent bloody methods? I have faith that God is good. That's the only faith I need. I don't see the value in these religions that try to make God out to be an angry jealous idiot who turns people into pillars of salt, has his own son nailed to a pole, and is at war with a demonic angel that he needs to appease. I ask you. Why would I even want to put my faith in an idea that God is so innept? I would rather believe that God is at least as intelligent and compassionate as me. That pretty much eliminates any of the Mediterranean mythologies. I would never have my son nailed to pole to appease myself. And if I'm supposedly all-powerful and can choose to do anything I want, I wouldn't allow a demonic angel to pee around with my pet humans. And like I mentioned earlier, I'd be at least nice enough to have fixed Adam up with a nice girl like Mary instead creating a bimbo like Eve for him. 
We never had a chance if this Mediterranean mythology is true. So I put my faith in the idea that the real God is actually nice, and not at all like the ficticious God of the Old Testament. Even Jesus denounced the ways of Yahweh. That's why he was nailed to a pole in the first place. He was accused of blaspheme against Yahweh. For whatever it's worth I don't think you're an idiot. I think your just a victim of a mythology that you haven't truly thought about in depth yet. 
I was a victim of it myself for the longest time. It basically ruined my life to be perfectly honest about it. It made me feel guilty about ever stupid little thing. Things that I had absolutely no business feeling guilty about at all. It's truly sad. |
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@Abra :
Thank you for another wonderful post .  .
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Edited by
tohyup
on
Sun 08/30/09 03:12 PM
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Double post......
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Boo wrote:
And having grown up in a so called Christian family I can also see why it might very well be called child abuse. I think it is as well. No child should be taught any dogma until they are old enough to make up their own minds what they choose to believe. You can teach the basics of ethics to a young child with out getting into biblical rhetoric that can't be proved much less authenticated. Absolutely!
Lying to young children isn't nice, and to tell them that the Bible is the word of God or that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God who was nail to a pole to pay for their sins is absolutely a lie because no human on planet Earth knows that there is any truth to this claim whatsoever. I've read the book and it sure looks to me like the Jesus character (whether an actual historical figure or not) was nailed to the pole for blaspheme and for having rejected the previous teachings of "God" (Yahweh). So the idea that he was sent by Yahweh as a sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of man doesn't even look plausible to me, much less credible. So teaching children that God is so heartless and nasty that he would have his own son nailed to a pole is pretty sick IMHO. I've known quite a few people who have confessed that as a child this story traumatized them. Not because they felt guilty about anything. They were just traumatized by the whole idea that God could be so heartless, cruel, and utterly stupid. How can a person look up to a supreme being who's so stupid that the only way he can figure out to solve problems it by using horrible violent methods? What a dissapointment to discover that our surpreme creator isn't even as wise as some mortal humans. Ironically, Christianity has caused a whole lot of people to become hardcore atheists. They don't even want to hear about any "God" after having been traumatized by Christianity. I don't blame them. This religion should definitely be listed under 'child abuse' as far as I'm concerned.
What the hell, it's even based on a God who abuses his child. Sick, sick, sick.
I couldn't agree more. When I had difficulty with what I learned at sunday school I had no one to turn to, my teacher ignored my questions and my parents could not be approached. They used religous beliefs in every thing including punishments even when we didn't do what we were accused of. I grew up thinking adults had some form of mental problems though I couldn't articulate that at the time. But you learned not to questions religion, therefore you learned not to question authority. That to me is not just abuse but dangerous. |
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So for those self-righteous Christians you have dealt with I hope they realize that the judging that they have done is just as bad as the sin they accuse you of. Just to let you know I also believe that I am no where near perfect. I know I will never be there either. So if you would like I would love to introduce you to the Christianity I know. Not the one that has been accusing you in the past. email me and we can talk more. I'm gay and I would never come to you for advice or councel. First of all you don't even realize how judgmental you are as well. You who I am to sin? 'Their judgement is as bad as the sin of homosexuality?' That makes you as selfrigteous any other christian and just as judgemental. You are just looking for someone to convert so you can justify what you believe. If I took you wrong I apologize but I can't see where I did. |
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I have no respect for the morman religion. They take every religion on earth mix it up and call it their own. How fake is that. I belive in the bible and God and people should read the bible before they make statements. Faith is something you have not actual prof of you either belive it or you don't and that goes with everything not just religion. If you believe the bible, you too believe in something that was manipulated by many many different people, who then structured it to fit their own prejudices and their urge for control and power. So if you hate the mormon religion you might as well hate your own too, because your's is no better. Most people here 'have read the Bible' and it's the reason they reject it. |
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