I’ll be the first to agree that a relationship with God is a feeling one and not an intellection one.

However that flies in the face of the idea that we need a book in the first place, or that it would be important to intellectually believe that some guy was God and died for our sins. Those are intellectual concepts.

So if you’re going to preach the idea that you can only know God spiritual and not dogmatically you’re not going to be very convincing that a person needs to believe in a particular dogma to know God.

Sorry Wouldee, but your very premise flies in the face of trying to support a dogmatic approach to spirituality.

The book wasn't necessary and it might have been better if it weren't compiled, bu it does serve as a guide to what is not real and truthful, doesn't it?

But then, we can be certain that the troubles in this life would still exist for man. Either way, good or bad is not coming from the book but man.

Which is why no'sorrys' to me are needed.

Dogmatic approaches to thoings are employed in explaining pantheism as well, at least in your estimations.

Isn't that what we are discussing, or have been?

It's not my premise, it is yours.

You 'feel' compelled to bash that which you have not apprehended.

The dogma is yours. Keep it. It is of no good use to me.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Each must employ ones own spirituality to know what that avails.

The Bible employs spiritual discernment of the freedom that Chrsit spoke of.

Pantheism does the same for its own porposes.

Best to teach pantheism and leave out the dogma of smearing Christian thought and thereby have no need to be confronted with your hypocrisy.

You won't be hypocritical if you don't ehgender the strife you create in trying toi make Christianity fit your beliefs or defend the superiority of your pantheistic belief.

Stand on the merits of what has apprehended you and leave the dgma out of it.

It is your dogma that is being answered, Abra.

Remove the dogma by simply not addressing Chrisstianity while teaching your beliefs in pantheism.

Chrisitanuity speaks of its own so others might see it, not anything else.

Any mention of other gods in Christianity is just that. That there are other gods in the hearts of men.

Why make it a personal attack on your beliefs that are otherwise?

You make no sense to me trying to ewxplain away your own doings.

It doesn't affect me. I have no problem or dissaffection with your beliefs, just thje way you discredit that which does not suit you.

And that, my friend, is a sipritual discernment of spiritual things, not dogma.

You need to admit to yourself that you are a different religion than Jesus, Abracadabra. Or maybe you really are a christian in your heart, it seems that way. Theres 0% chance Jesus was anything but a monotheist. He's the guy that promoted monotheism onto a worldwide level This is historical fact. Nothing wrong with being a pantheist but Jesus most certainly was not a pantheist His lifes work was spreading monotheism to the world at large and it was wildly succesful even after his death. It was a revolutionary idea in the ancient world

Mirror, I wonder what has brought you to this conclusion...

Could you quote a parable which displays such?

Im not interested in mysticism. There are no answers there. Lets look at what is known Lets look at historical fact. Thats what Im discussing. Thats how Im answering the question. With historical facts The rest of you keep wanting to debate mysticism and metaphysics.

Could you quote a parable of Jesus which supports your claim?

I have no use for what people afterwards have had to say about it...

The winners write the history books Mirror...


Could you quote a parable, of which Jesus spoke, that supports your claim that Jesus was monotheistic in belief?

Jesus was the founder of a break away Jewish sect called "The Twelve Disciples", although he had far more than twelve followers. Upon his instruction his followers began converting non-Jews (The Gentiles) to monotheism. This small cult was wildly succesful and in time became the popular world religion that we today call "Christianity". These are the facts CreativeSoul, and always have been. Everything Ive stated can be easily confirmed with a small amount of research. This is not mysticism, this is historical facts. Its not my opinion. Its the truth.

I will not discuss mysticism. Im sticking to historical fact. I'll leave the mysticism to everyone else.

I don’t think so. You just don’t understand what I’m saying. I’m saying that I believe that even Jesus would denounce what Christianity has become.

Wouldee, you can’t detach to dogma from Christianity. In order to believe in Christianity you must believe that God is a male chauvinist. It states clearly in the doctrine that it is God’s wish that women be subservient to their husbands, and it even proclaims that women should not speak publicly on important matters, especially regarding ethics and religion.

There are many other ways in which the bible demands bigotry. The doctrine causes people to become judgmental of others, even if that amounts to nothing more than the belief that non-believers are ‘lost souls’ or worse yet, that they have actually chosen, freely and knowingly, to rebel against God and his bigoted laws.

Christianity is a religion of bigotry and judgment. I don’t care what anyone says, that’s what the religion gives rise to, and it’s what the doctrine proclaims. The God depicted in the doctrine clearly instructed people to stone ‘sinners’ at one point. That requires that they judge them to be sinners based on their actions.

Yet, Jesus (the man who didn’t come to change the laws), clearly did not support that view, and he even preached that we should not judge others which flies in the face of what the godhead of the old testament had in mind.

The personas and desires of Jesus and the God of Abraham simply don’t match up with each other. They conflict head-on. To believe that they are the same deity is quite literally impossible for me.

You’re asking me to ignore these ‘intellectual facts’ and just believe.

But what is it that am I supposed to ‘just believe’?

Just believe that Jesus was the God of Abraham?

Duh?

Mirror,

Can you understand that the biggest difference in the teachings which have been attributed to Jesus lie in the parables?

That was revolutionary thought... attributed to Jesus...

Christianity grew up after Jesus' death... it is in serious question, and has been for quite some time, as to the validity concerning the authenticity of any of the gospels...

What did Jesus say in his parables? That is what was so different about his teachings, Mirror... the parables...

Now, rather than repeat to me what Christianity claims....

Can you repeat a parable of Jesus which supports your claim?

True, Jesus (Yeshua), was definitively, Jewish.



Not at all...Monotheism was already well established, and
if you are referring to "Christianity", that was Paul.



Not really....His goal was to reform Judaism; in this regard, he failed.



Really? Unlike the concepts of Aten (Amenhotep IV or Akhnaten), Ahura Mazda (Gathas of Zoroaster), The One (Indian Rigveda) or Theos (Plato's Euthyphro)......?

It sounds like you may be confusing the proliferation of Christianity with the advent of monotheism, which is not historically accurate.

Abraham invented monotheism. He taught this practice to his descendents. In time his descendents became the Hebrews. The practice of worshiping one god was unique to the Hebrews. Its set them apart from other peoples. In time the Hebrews became the Jews. The Jews were monotheists. Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was a rabbi. Jesus and his followers began promoting the monotheistic practices of the Jews to the non-Jews (The Gentiles). This was revolutionary in its time it was wildly succesful. These are the facts Abracadabra, no matter what you believe bro.

Mirror :

Okay, so where do you get your "historical Facts" when there in no proof that the man named Jesus even existed outside what is written in possibly forged scriptures of the new testament?

A thing does not become a "fact" just because it is a widely held belief. There are no such facts.

No I will not repeat a parable of Jesus. I wont discuss mysticism. Im sticking to the facts. i dont need to quote a parable. All I need is to quote historical facts.

Monotheism was only entrenched in the Hebrew/Jewish community before Jesus. You got your facts all wrong But at least your trying to discuss the historical facts and not mysticism.

Mirror,

You are making claims which you cannot support as fact.

You are claiming what Jesus' beliefs were.

I will not debate about what Christianity's history is, or what christians wrote in the history books, other than Jesus words... in particular, the parables, because those are far less likely to have been forged...

Now, can you quote a parable which supports your claim?

Christianity was born after Jesus died, not during his life.

Im getting my facts from the common interpretation of history. I take it your trying to argue a radical reinterpretation of hstory.

Mirror you will not look at Jesus' teachings concerning his belief(s) in order to determine what his beliefs were?

Unbelievable...

Have a good conversation then...

Good luck believing what others have claimed...

Go back 200 years in history books, you will find a different history has been written since...

Thank you for the dialogue.

Jesus instructed his followers to promote monotheism to The Gentiles (Non-Jews). Jesus had many Jewish followers but after his death, he had many, many more non-Jewish followers. This is what he wanted This is what he set out to do This is what his followers did before and after his death Its in the bible and its historical facts.

I look at them but I wont discuss mysticism. The answer requires facts, not conjecture and hypothesis. There is an answer to the question and I answered it.