Abra,

I have emboldened the words you have written here with good reason. It is this conclusory use of your phrasiology that is disengenuous.

Christianity is not a record of history, it is a way of life born of historical realities within the context of a rather large family tradition that built itself on the premise of being inheritors of a promise given an ancestor.

Be that as it may, you know where I stand with respect to the premise of your OP, whether or not you have authored that which you have shared or otherwise come to embrace.

Your picture of Christianity is disengenuous and your understanding of Christianity is distracting you from seeing my point and acknowledging that Christian thought is not pantheistic, nor are your conclusions about Christianity accurate.

Christianity is away of life, not dogma and histrionics.

I think you’re misunderstanding me Wouldee.

I’m not making any claims about ‘Christianity’. I’m talking solely about a man named Jesus and how he may have been misunderstood.

There is no doubt in my mind that ‘Christianity’ claims lineage to this man as their prophesized messiah. From my point of view those claims are necessarily demagoguery. I don’t believe that the authors of those stories where qualified genealogists and had the necessary documentation to back up their claims to the lineage they wrote about.

Moreover, when you speak of things like this all you do is remind me that Christianity is indeed a restricted religion. The biblical promises you speak of were only made to the descendents of Abraham and no one else!

Jesus didn’t come to change the biblical law!!! So he certainly couldn't change the promises either!

If you truly believe what you claim, then Christianity is a religion that is solely promised to the descendents of Abraham. So, if you believe that, then you must also believe that anything that Jesus preached was only aimed at those descendents.

If you take the biblical story on it’s ultimately verbatim word then Christians better run out and start having genealogy tests to discover whether or not they even qualify for these biblical promises.

I have no clue whether I’m a descendent of Abraham or not. I would be stabbing in the dark expecting promises that were made to his descendants to apply to me.

If Abraham was an Israelite then I very well may not be among his descendants.

Do you know whether you are a descendant of Abraham?

I have been thinking about what mirror mirror has said and reconsidering his statements for what they are. The book he referred to is a history of World religions. The history of a man called “Jesus” is written with the assumption that some people believed that such a man did exist, and if he did, this is what the book as concluded about what the man taught.

Mirror never did state that the book claimed Jesus was a God, so I doubt that it made that claim, but I don’t know. If it did, then it probably couldn’t be called an unbiased historical book.

Monotheism is the idea that there is only One god. Pantheism also proclaims only one God. So I see no disagreement here except the misunderstanding of the nature of that one god and how Jesus taught.

The “facts” that mirror mirror speaks of are the history of how it is believed the religion came into being. He even called Jesus’s teaching at the time “a cult.”

It was only a lot later that this story of a savior God became a religion and was named “Christianity” when Rome decided to make this cult leader, a renegade Jewish rabi, into a real God for the sake of combining pagan worship under the one religion with the one God.

No one was actually there to hear his (Jesus’s) words, no one really knows what he taught, all people know is what they were told that he taught, hearsay upon hearsay and what was written in the new testament by unknown authors, which some say are a forgery.

So, although Mirror Mirror proclaims that Jesus is not a Pantheist that he was a monotheist, these two terms are both about one God, so the argument is a mote point anyway. His “Facts” are established as historical information about a religion, and of course they would not have said that Jesus was a pantheist, simply because of what his teaching turned into later. But he could have been trying to teach that view, he was, after all, considered a renegade during his time, unpopular with the Jewish sects.

Metaphysics / Truth of Pantheism

'All is One and Interconnected' is not a new idea, its foundation lies with the ancient philosophers. For thousands of years, philosophers have gazed at the stars and known that One thing must exist that is common to and connects the Many things within the Universe. As Leibniz profoundly says; Reality cannot be found except in One single source, because of the interconnection of all things with one another. (Leibniz, 1670)
Albert Einstein also had a good understanding of humans as an inseparable part of the One, as he writes;

A human being is part of the whole called by us universe ... We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein)

Unfortunately (and most likely tragically), this knowledge of our interconnection to the Universe (Nature, God) has been lost (or is naively considered as not important) to modern day humanity. We are 'bleeding at the roots because we are cut off from the Earth' as D. H. Lawrence writes.

It is important to understand that although 'All is One and Interconnected' is a profound idea of the ancients, they did not actually know how the universe was a dynamic unity, what matter was, how the One Thing / Brahman caused and connected the many things.

Recent discoveries on the properties of Space and the Wave Structure of Matter (Wolff, Haselhurst) suggests that we can understand Reality and the interconnection of all things from a foundation of science / reason rather than mysticism / intuition.

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/simple-science/truth-reality-discovery-of-the-obvious.htm

Abra,

Still, you muse the inconsistencies of your understanding of the point of the Bible and Christianity and Abraham and his seed altogether.

The seed of Abraham had , bu the time of Jesus, been mixed with the seed of every other family on the planet outside of any partial genetic predisposition to Abraham's children.

Sufficiently so, that Abraham could no longer be excluded from the general population of man on the planet, forevermore.

The Samaritans are just one close reminder of that.

This is what escapes you and others, Abra.

Christ did away with the Israelite problem by overcoming the law within Himself.

What he offers is for everyone, including Israel on equal terms with you.

You and Israel may not like that, but that is the core point to what is being shared in the gospel.

I don't make this stuff up, it is in the Holy Bible.

This is why I continue to remind yoiu that your judgements are based more on the problem being solved in the Holy Bible than partaking in the understanding of the problem that brought about the remedy for Israel.

The remedy for Israel is of no consequence to anyone outside of Israel.

The remedy is not your problem.

The offer to you in the Gospel of Jesus has nothing to di with Israel, but has everything to do with receiving a better inheritance of the Promise given to Abraham.

Perhaps the slap in the face and chastisement of Israel is what ieks you, but if you ever took the time to read the whole colloection from beginning to end you would see that the problem is not there at all.

It is the filter in ones own imagination that creates a nonexistent problem with Jesus.

In all the months that we have chatted, here, there ad everywhere, I would have thought you could get past the garbage spewed in the name of Christianity and look at it in the light of its truth without filtering any shame into it.

I was wrong.

You just don't get it.

Too bad that filters and false teachings have proliferated so well as to deceive intelligent men.

Women and chidren too, because men are of such.

It will never end, nor will thr truth.

Read it, Abra.


Without your filters.

Jeannie.

excellent!

you got it.

that is what Christ taught, but we are not little gods as some suppose upon pantheism.

we are mortal men, women and children.

He says, "Come here, I have something for you!....my love and friendship on the inside!" pretty much it.



Einstein described it, but did not qualify it Christian. He doesn't need to. It is unnecessary.

Now I have thrown in? nope.

You are getting closer to where I sit, is all.

Too bad for labels.

We (our bodies) are mortal. They are the little self. And so was Jesus a mortal man. But we are not our bodies. That is not who we are.

Are we "little Gods?" That may seem difficult for you to grasp, but we are seedlings of gods. Is an embryo a "little person?" Some would claim so, but not according to man's law. While an embryo is a potential person, so a human is a potential god.

We are creators in training, or else we are nothing of importance at all.

JB

A "god" doesnt have to be "real" to wield tremendous influence on the course of human history. A "god" is basically an idea (in Jesus, and The Buddhas, and some others case based upon real people).

mmmmmmmmmmmmm??????????
that is meal for thought.

Jeannie,

Is this to me?

I am a man. Not a god, sorry, and I don't want to be. Mine does a better job and I don't have a need to be Him, only know Him and share His love with him, myself, and others.

Who cares when God Almighty dwells within ones heart.

I don't want, nor do I need more. Nor do I care.

But that doesn't mean I am telling you or anyone else what to do, as I am not. No one asks that of me. Ask me privately about Jesus, not here. That is not an invitation to discuss anything, if you follow my drift.

Be little gods, it doesn't matter to me.Just don't call Christ into it.

All I am willing rather to do and find it rather a willing and unburdensome thing to do is dispell misconceptions about Christ.

He is whose I am. Even though He doesn't need me to do it , it is expedient for others, not Him or me. I could go away tomorrow, I don't know. I don't really have an opinion about that.

What I do know is Him and that He is not as depicted here by many, and not in some of these things that drag him into it.

If no one said anything untoward about Christ, you would never hear from me here in these threads that malign Him. Not intentional, I know that, but it happens. I understand that noone really is intending to be mean and hateful concerning Christ, but it happens.

Only to the froward am I froward. That goes with that which is in Me.

The rest of me is just chatting among friends.

Simple actually, but complicated for others.

Simple is best, Jeannie.

I see. Ok, well based on that definition I suppose Jesus was God. Actually as a pantheist I must also agree the Jesus was God in spirit.

My only point is that there are other scenarios that seem to explain what he taught that have at least as much merit as the explanation given in the gospels.




I’m not concerned with that particular detail Wouldee. Clearly it seemed important enough to the authors of the gospels to make certain that Jesus had the right lineage.

More to the point,

If you prefer to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God then this whole thread is moot for you. I made that clear in the OP.

I’m viewing this from a historical perspective and offering an alternative view that may well be plausible.

You’re ‘belief’ that the Bible makes these things clear is not held by everyone. Clearly the Jews themselves did not believe that Jesus was the prophesized messiah.

So when you things like,…



I quickly point out that the original dogma fell into three parts, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Clearly, the stories are not clear!

Moreover, Christianity then went on to fall apart into two major sects, Catholicism and Protestantism, and Protestantism has so many denominations and beliefs that it’s difficult to keep track of them all.

So any claim that the Bible is unambiguous is genuinely material for Saturday Night Live.

You can make is say just about anything you’d like to believe Wouldee.

it fell into more parts than that

It also is the same for all of that

no matter. It changes not.

It is fixed on God.

disclaimer: your first quote box is not the words of wouldee.

the second and third are.

clever use of cut and paste, Abra.

We are what we are. Nothing changes that. I don't "call Christ into it." You do. Christians do. The indwelling spirit of God is the "Christ." You call it that, and have given it to one man. I use the term only because it is the language you speak and it describes the realization of the indwelling spirit of God.

true

I think our misunderstanding is simply one that involves words and the meanings..perhaps, or maybe not. Yes, God dwells within us. You say "within ones heart." Some call the heart the "seat of the soul."

If God dwells within you, then you are either part of God or God has possessed you, taking your body and soul from you. If your body and soul belong to God, then you are part of God and we are in agreement. (You just can't find it in you to admit that this is what makes you a "little God.")

For me, the dwelling within means that God lives and breathes and sees the world through me and through my body... because I am part of THAT.

I am part of God. I am not separated nor could I ever be. This claim does not mean that I go around seeking underlings to "worship" me or that I claim authority over anyone, (as you view your God does) or that I mean to tell anyone that they are not God and I am. I know that they too are part of God.

For whatever purpose we live as individual thinking centers with our own will to direct ourselves and make our own choices. I have faith in that purpose and it does not matter to me what others will believe, really. It is what it is, and if I am wrong, that does not even matter.

I am not going to reject God by saying I don't want that responsibility. That is what you seem to do when you say you do not want that, that you do not want more. What is it that you do not want more of? Responsibility? Awareness? Truth?

Would you rather feel safe and secure in the arms of your parents for eternity and leave all responsibility for everything to some other being than to realize and accept the responsibility of the Godhead which is offered to you?

The way I see it, those who do not want it, are like the people who do not want the responsibility that comes with the job and would rather work as an employee than to own their own company.

If you do not want more, you will not get more, because God gives you what you want.

Jeannie,

I want not because i have access to all and the access has rested the longings to access or possess.

possession is no longer the pursuit, observing truth and being congruent with truth is the life. The pursuit of that apprehension is over. Now it is but a wonderful journey. LOVE is expressed in the contentment of that apprehension realized.

Be it that I am not a god is where the contentment is.

I possess my soul and it was given me to.

I am loved by God and not possessed in the sense that you describe. There is freedom in the embrace.

Nor has my spirit been usurped and surrendered but dignified and filled with that which is the source of its own recognition.

The responsibility that has been attached to our lives and in our charge is still personal and unique and I shirk nothing, nor do I know any loss but have acquired the more.

The accountability within me is assuredly sound and due my person. I have been found and have found myself.

The glove turned out to be the hand it self after all. The glove turned out to be an assumption of my own device.

Gladly, it did not prevent my apprehension by the one that made me for my shallow perception in thinking a glove could be more than the hand.

But then when I watch my children explore the newness of fitting into things that I have grwon through, I can see the invisible smiles of the one who has wonderfully made me and know that I am but a child in awe of life and frolicking in the wonderment, though still naive.

The mask of cynicism had its party to attend, but the mask is no longer the one that I would wear to the party next, should I be invited among friends. My friends had learned of me by the mask, but in removing the mask they had no recognition of me, so learning of my identity requires them to see the reality without the mask. It is a mask too! How ironic. The subjectivity attached makes anonymity fun when at the party.

But alas! a season is but a season and the reality is forever.


Well, you describe the responsibilty 'of' the Godhead and not the responsibilty 'for' the Godhead.

Responsibilities can be delegated, but authority cannot be delegated, nor should it be.

My usefulness is initiated by the threshold of my competence, not by my will. I am content in that. I have no need or desire to vaunt myself.

In that business, "I don't care."

Were I to wear a crown, the one of my own making would not fit.

Were a crown given me I would wear it, given that the crown were the gift of the giver. I would refuse it not.

But I know the giver that would place the crown there that I would receive. That is discernment due my competence.

It is not an offer to allow (in reception) that is not without qualifications.

The one that I would allow such from has neither my permission nor my demand for such. It is entirely up to the one that I would allow to bestow such an authority for which comes from the delegation to the office attached to the emblem.

For which I bear the responsibilties of in performing the duties of such an office.


To visualize this in simple terms, I offer you this.


Were heaven to have a corner, I am content to sit there. I need not be in the center. Being there is here already. I didn't make it but entrance has been given me.

Were I to wait for ten thousands of years to have lunch with the householder, it would be my pleasure to wait. There may very well be others that are esteemed to precede me in dates for lunch and my patience is greater than my assurance of lunch with the householder.

Let's face it. Being in the house is being invited to a meal.

Must I be the center of attention as a guest?

May it be that I am at home with family?

You judge if you please yourself in that.

I know, but the assurance is mine. Half of the fun is leaving the exploration of knowing to the seeker.

What do you seek?

It is not for me to answer for you, nor is it for you to answer to me for.

Yet, many do not afford me the same courtesy.


peace , from the double-edged sword that sings

To claim that you “have access to all” is a claim that you have attained the Christ consciousness and that you are equal to the Christ or even better. If you proclaim that Jesus was The Christ, and that he was God, then you are proclaiming that you to are God, with “access to all.”

I hardly think that you have access to all, even though I believe it is possible to attain that power. Meaning access to all knowledge, all information, all power etc. To make a claim like this is either a lie or a delusion.




Now you claim that you are not a god and that is where the contentment is. This absolves you of any of the responsibilities of a god, but yet you claim to have “access to all,” as if you were a god.

You do not make any sense in these claims.



Your soul? You say that as if it “a soul” is an object or thing that is owned or can be possessed. Who are you that you can possess it? Your soul or your body? You obviously identify with your body, not your soul. Can you own or possess a soul? I don’t think so. If you think you can, who is the YOU that you are referring to that possess such a thing? I think you have it backwards. Your soul contains that which is you, and it operates your body IMO.





Tasks can be delegated, but the responsibility remains with both the delegator and the one delegated to, for if the one delegated to does not perform the task the buck goes back to the one doing the delegating.

Authority is granted to the one who has been given the responsibility for others who refuse to be responsible for themselves, for if you refuse to be responsible for yourself, or are not able to, you place yourself under the authority of the one who is responsible for you.

So authority is necessary for the responsible one to perform his or her tasks and if the task is delegated to others he or she is still responsible to see that it gets done.

Do you not agree with this?




Accepting responsibility has nothing to do with vaunting oneself or being the center of attention.



The crown has been offered already. You have refused it. You stated that you are content to sit in a little corner of heaven and wait.



So you have ignored the crown because you feel you are not qualified??



You are always in the center of your own reality for that is the seat of your faculty of awareness.. But If you want to sit in someone’s corner and wait , and if that gives you pleasure, that’s what you will do.

The meek shall inherit the earth but only the bold and adventuresome will attain heaven IMHO.


Peace in your corner of heaven!!

Jeannie,

We are in different places.

Sometimes the things we say sound similar, if not the same.

They are neither similar, nor the same.

They are not similar because your view of heaven is inclusive of Jesus'teachings but no different than other estimations that appear to reflect the same thing without the stigmas of Jesus' particular story to tell.

That would in and of itself disqualify the notion that Christian thought is exclusive at the expense of itself.

The man eaten by a mountain lion in an North American forest the day after Jesus rose from the dead half way around the world would be forever lost to heaven or whatever description one might give of the notions assumed about Christian thought and whether or not one must be told of the possobilities or already know such things inherently and thereby make the whole need issue vain. That sounds as ludicrous as it is.

Access and attainment of an apprehension involves mastery of that apprehension. In Christ, Being conformed into His image and likeness is afforded inspiration through the gift of that which was and is present within Him to share. A gift, to whosoever will. That requires mastery on the part of the one apprehended of the offer. It is not inherent, nor is it a demand that must be met to be accepted of. Attainment of that is available. I don't even imagine to have fulfilled the fullness of that, and the very Spirit of God has been given me.
Learning to empty myself and only follow the distinctive directions of the Holy Spirit and not my own is proving to be a very long journey, which may not reach the mastery in this lifetime while housed in the flesh that is carrying me, my soul, around here.
Access, and being that access are mutually exclusive.
I am not a god, nor am I God,incarnate. I am a man given access to God and His leading and direction for my life, which is the precious and unique soul within me that has not been shared with other entities in another or other lifetimes.
That is where you may depart from comprehending me, even though, I say that I can continue in comprehending where you are.

Arrogant on my part it is on the surface, unless I know something that you do not. I do.

Still, I may make no sense to you.

But you may learn to understand that which you have not apprehended. That doesn't preclude you from your own choices which may be otherwise for yourself, but it also doesn't usurp heaven from being available to you either. Or life after death of your body of flesh.

The soul is the unique aspect of our composite wholes as humans.

Body, soul, spirit.
Man is a spirit who possesses a soul and dwells in a body.

The spirit is the influencial trigger on the soul, but the soul houses the will and the direction in choices and decisions. The body either serves the soul or spirit or the soul or spirit serve the body.

The body is temporal, the spirit is not. The soul decides whether God will be spirit or the belly.

Where the spirit is, there is the soul. Where there is no spirit, there is only the body.

Were the spirit not the influence of the LivingWord of God, but a word, nonetheless, the soul will seek the word if the and when the body fails. If the owrd heard is not the Living Word of God, where will the soul end?
If the spiit is the Living Word of God and the body fails, where goes the soul?

Man is a spirit. Man must be equipped with either a word to inspire from God or other 'gods'. Influences all.

Man's spirit does not comprehend man's own spirit as unique from his soul without distinctions to border the difference between the two.

The Holy Spirit shows the difference when being indwelt, iinstantaineously. But the Holy Spirit is now only yet beginning to conform the man, heart, soul, to the image of itself.

The point is this. Christ did nothing of himself, as a man.

He, as man, followed the lead and inspiration of the one that gives Him the Living Word to speak or act on. That Chrsit Himself is the Living Word, and through the Holy Spirit receives that Word, He nonetheless is given the Word to speak.

The difference between Christ and us is that we were not there when the Word spoke all of this into existence. He was, and He is the singular and unique vessel of that Word being spoken.

That is the rub.

That He gives us access, does not preclude His person. He is without any lack of knowledge of this creation. We are lacking that knowledge. None of us were there, but He was.

Satan, apparently was there, but not as that Living Word.

That little word sought to drive man mocking the Living Word and initiate his own following.

The rest I will leave you to fume over or consider.

Your choice.

Anything else I may say can be answered by the difference between the wisdom in us.

Mine comes from understanding the knowledge of the Lord.

I have been in the place where there was no knowledge of the Lord to understand. There was no wisdom from God in me.

But my street smarts were given me by another who is gone now.

My spirit is still my own, but fused to God's by His. My soul is still my own and I am no god, but a child of the Most High God, and called in Christ and given the Holy Spirit that was in Christ to conform me.

My body is not the booty for my soul to wander in darkness looking for the little word to save me when I depart my body.

I did not know that before.
I know that now.

There are many gods. There is only ONE Living Word, Christ.

No one knows the Creator better than He!

Period.

Call it delusion.

It is unless you believe Christ's passion is just and unique.

But to know the extent to which the offer goes and what insights are to become real and apparent and life changing in terms of understanding oneself,.....

....well, that must come from God.

I believed that Christ was of God, and the other gods I knew did not like it, nor did they like me reading about Him either.

They really didn't like getting their game called when they were booted out of me, nor did they walk away quietly.,,,,

they tried unsuccessfully to distract me back. HA!!!!!

Not a chance in HELL!!!! KNOW THAT!!!!

That they want me dead is an understatement. They try that too!!

That they try to stop the Holy Spirit from working through me is an understatement.

That they don't like my presence here in these forums is an understatement.

Delusional as you paint me, you don't know what I know, but I know what you know. More so.




Been there, done that.

To think you know what I know "and more so," ~that is your delusion, (or perhaps it is just your ego or arrogance?) My life's experiences are not yours to "know" and you cannot know me or know what I know. To say that is a lie or else a delusion if you actually believe it.

(Unless you are claiming to be a god who has the power to know people and know what they know, without being in their shoes.)

I don't know how you arrived at the place your are, but it does even not matter! It never will matter. That we are in a different place, does not matter. None of that matters.

You simply made a statement that you have "access to all" and that may mean one thing to you and another thing to me altogether. Words are only words and they are interpreted differently.

If you really "knew what I knew" then you would understand." But it is clear you do not.

I try to interpret direct statements like that in the most literal sense to be sure I am understanding you, unless they are stated as poetry or vague.

Oh well. It does not matter. It is what it is.

perhaps...as you define ego that is entirely possible.

But no inference exists that you are delusional. nope.

nor are you less. nope

nor are you excluded from anything immortal, joyfully, to say the least. nope

nope, not from me, Jeannie.

Clearly you are not where I am.

But try to understand this one thing, if you can.

The Church of Jesus Christ is a household in heaven, an address within it.

It is not the whole of heaven. We are not all there is.

not by a long shot.

we may be actually only A FEW IN NUMBER, relatively speaking.

It appears that way to me, but I won't know til I am done here.

Still having too much fun and there is so much to do.

I can think on one thing that has garnered my attentions, though.