"The Lord was pleased to bruise him;

he has put him to grief;

when he makes himself an offering for sin,

he shall see his offspring,

he shall prolong his days;

the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Not incorrect. None of these verses say that God the father sent Jesus to be crucified for us.



Gave him to us, as in sent him to us to give us the new covenant. Yes they knew he would eventually be crucified for doing as such. But still wasn't God the father whom put Jesus on that cross, they just knew it was going to happen.

The problem I have with all of this is the very idea that God would be wallowing in "glory" over this.

Gee whiz. After reading this I can only imagine that God was absolutely thrilled when Adam and Eve fell from grace. And he must have also been extremely thrilled that humans were constantly disobeying him and giving him reasons to have his son crucified to he can wallow in the "glory".

~~~~~

In all seriousness MorningSong, and with all due respect, it truly surprises me that you have no problem with this.

What do we have here really?

A creator who supposedly creates beings who aren't even compatible with his own desires. They have such a need to disobey him that this is all they can ever seem to do. In fact, to make this story even work we must assume that there does not even exist such a thing as a human who could agree with God, or who would actually want the same things that God supposedly likes.

The creator creates a whole world of these pathetic disobedient bozos who are totally unworthy of saving themselves and supposedly even incapable of behaving properly on their own merit even if they wanted to.

This creator supposedly misjudges the whole situation thinking that maybe human can somehow turn themselves around TWICE. Once before the great flood, and again after the great flood but before the coming of Jesus. Humans failed to turn themselves around in both cases, and thus God was mistaken in thinking that they might even be able to do this on their own.

Finally, this God proudly sends his own son to be crucified by these bozos so that he can offer them salvation. And now God is wallowing in the "Glory" of this new tactic and his saints are rejoicing.

In fact, where did the "saints" come from? Where they fluke humans who were able to turn themselves around ON THEIR OWN? That would kind of blow a hole in the whole idea that humans aren't supposed to be able to save themselves on their own merit.

The whole story is truly unbelievable as far as I can see.

A God who would find "Glory" in having his son crucified on cross so that he can offer "salvation" to defective souls that he himself had created?

This sounds more like a Frankenstein movie, where God would be the scientist who is trying to create a decent life form, but for some reason can't seem to create anything but defective unworthy souls. So in desperation he finally gives up trying, sends his only begotten son to die for them so that he can offer them GRACE, even though they will forever be defective worthless inferior lifeforms that can never be worthy of anything on their OWN MERIT.

And, as humans, we're supposed to "rejoice" at this situation?

To be perfectly honest with you MorningSong if this truly represents the truth of our reality as humans I would request that this God provide me with euthanasia (in a spiritual sense). Just un-create me and quit playing around with trying to create life if that's all the better this God can do.

I have absolutely no desire to be granted entrance into any paradise where I will forever be seen as an inferior being that is unworthy of being there and was only allowed in because God was somehow glorified by having his son nailed to a pole.

To me that would be like living in a Freddy's Nightmare or something.

With all sincerity I would be far more attracted to a completely atheistic universe where we just happened to evolve by accident.

This idea that we are the pathetically inferior creations of some insane God who is "glorified" by having his son crucified so that he can "forgive" the defective souls that he creates, is just not an attractive scenario at all.

~~~~

What truly disturbs me is the fact that so many people actually view this kind of scenario as being inviting somehow.

That's almost scarier than the fable itself.

You're not giving God enough power Cowboy.

If all is all-knowing and all-powerful, then surely God could have chosen a place and time to send his son with his message without putting his son in harms way.

He also could have very easily just told Jesus to disappear when the authorities came looking for him. Jesus was already "hiding out" anyway, and supposedly Judas revealed his whereabouts.

In this same story, God seemed to have no problem telling Mary to take the baby Jesus and flee when King Herod was killing all the first born babies.

So clearly this God can protect his son anytime he so chooses without interfering with anyone's "free will" etc.

So there is NO EXCUSE for this God to allow Jesus to be crucified if it was not HIS DESIRE AND WILL to have this done.

Your claim that the crucifixion of Jesus is on humans simply can't stand. It had to be God's will otherwise it could have never happened because this God is supposed to be "All-powerful". There is nothing this God can't do. Therefore saving his son from a crucifixion would be a piece of cake for such a God.

For such an all-powerful omniscient God to "allow" this to happen, would be no different from him having PLANNED it.

God created man PERFECT..in His very Own Image....

then sin came into the picture....

YET.God even told them(Adam and Eve) right from the very


beginning(immediately after they sinned), thst He had a

redemptive plan in store for them....


(God's plan was actually a PERFECT plan)

What would this have accomplished? Jesus was here to give us the new covenant. What kind of truth would it have carried if Jesus gave it to us and just disappeared? And with disappearing, it would have made Jesus seem afraid of something. What did Jesus have to fear?

A PERFECT plan?

He first has to flood all the sinners off the Earth, save for a few that he kept around to try to reseed humanity. Then he participates in eradicating the Canaanites.

By the way, how would the Canaanites have fit in with Adam and Eve? Where they some of Adam and Eve's offspring, or did they come from somewhere else?

Then after the flood he waits thousands of years before offering up Jesus as his "sacrificial lamb".

This doesn't sound like a very PERFECT plan to me. Moreover, according to the gospels even Jesus has the vast majority of humans failing to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven and only FEW will make it.

That's a "PERFECT" plan?

Why didn't God just offer Adam and Eve a chance to accept Jesus as their savior right then and there at the Garden of Eden?

They could have either accepted or rejected the offer and it all would have been settle PERFECTLY.

Dragging this on for centuries whilst people argue over which interpretations of convoluted religious doctrines to believe in hardly sounds very "PERFECT" to me.

Why is it not perfect? If someone doesn't make it to Heaven, it boils down to being their fault. Not God's, or anyone elses. Heaven is a REWARD for our obedience to the father. If one isn't obedient to the father, then they don't deserve Heaven in the first place. What kind of Heaven would it be if EVERYONE made it? Including, but not limited to Murderers, Rapists, Thieves, ect ect. What form of paradise would that create?

It would have accomplished a LOT as far as I'm concerned.

I would be far more impressed by a story of a "Son of God" who constantly eludes his enemies. Every time they go after him or think they have him he slips through their fingers and keeps returning in unexpected places.

That would have made a LAUGHING STOCK out of the Pharisees and authoritarians, and it would have shown that God is truly invincible.

Allowing these bozos to actually crucify Jesus would be a pathetic show of weakness on the part of a God.

What kind of a God can't even protect his own son from the malicious hands of bozos????

So yes, having Jesus constantly elude the authorities and making a laughing stock out of them would have been FAR MORE IMPRESSIVE.

There very fact that Jesus was crucified proves that he was not the son of any God.

Besides, you keep forgetting that the whole significance of this crucifixion in this religion is that Jesus was supposed to be the ultimate unblemished "Sacrificial Lamb" sent by God to pay for the sins of men.

But that's utterly absurd, IMHO, because this would be a God who is making sacrifices unto HIMSELF to pay for the sins of men.

In fact, this even flies in the very face of your own position:

You claim that sacrifices were necessary for men to show their sincerity to God because mere words are not enough, so you claim.

Yet, he God would be sacrificing his son as the "ultimate sacrifice" so that no one would have any need to make any more sacrifices.

So according to your theory, that would be relieving men of having to prove their sincerity.

That would be nonsense.

Why should men no longer need to prove their sincerity to God?

So your theory falls all to pieces when it comes to the crucifixion of Jesus.

Well, if men have to earn their way into heaven by showing obedience to God, then what would be the point in the crucifixion of Jesus.

Clearly if what you say here is true, then men can earn their own way into heaven simply by being obedient to what they believe God expects from them.

Yeah, sure would work if they were enemies. Jesus was here out of love, not out of war, or anything of such. He was here to bring piece and all they did was spit in his face. Their loss, not his.



God is invincible. No one has or ever will defeat God. God wasn't defeated at Calvery, what are you talking about?



What weakness did it show? Nothing was destroyed, God didn't loose anything. Again, what weakness did it show?



How so? Jesus was sent to show us the path to Heaven. And all they did was laugh and spit in his face. Again, how does it prove he was not the son of God?



Not necessarily. Jesus wasn't "sacrificed" for God. Sacrificing was in the old covenant. Jesus brought forth a new covenant that did not require sacrifice.



It is only seen as the ultimate sacrifice figuratively speaking. Yes Jesus sacrificed his entire life for us, I'm not demeaning what Jesus did in anyway. But the crucifixion wasn't any blood "sacrifice" to appease God the father. There was no longer any need for a blood sacrifice.

No, not true. What does either things you stated have anything to do with one another? They didn't get to Heaven for crucifying Jesus. Getting to Heaven and the crucifixion have nothing to do with one another, you're out in left field here. The below verse is how one gets to Heaven. Jesus was crucified for giving us this path.

John 14:6

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Last post to Cowboy:


You have been told numerous times, that a lot of what you

spread on here

is Incorrect, and thus,misrepresents what the bible truly says.


Yet You continue to spread a false gospel, ignoring all

correction.

I trust God will make His Word Clear To You in time .


I tried, but I can do no more now.

I spread no false gospel. Please correct me here if I'm incorrect. And use verses to show evidence of what you claim please. All I say is backed by scriptures not taken out of context. Please I encourage you to show me my error(s) here.

Cause I mean this with all sincerity, if I am wrong I do want to know how.

This is LOVE:

not that we loved God, but that HE LOVED US

and

SENT HIS SON

AS AN ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS.




NOTICE!!!!!!!!!!


"SENT HIS SON AS AN ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS,"


Meditate on this scripture.....and go spend time in God's Word

BEFORE further posting on here.


Hoping you will consider this suggestion prayerfully .

Please take care now...this is my final bit of advice.

Cowboy, you DO NOT speak for Jesus, God, or the official religions of Christianity.

You're more than welcome to climb down off that silly giraffe anytime you're ready.

In fact, the Catholics, and the many different denominations of Protestantism, don't even agree with each others interpretations of scriptures.

So where do YOU get off thinking that you speak for God?

You're just an example of how these kinds of jealous God religions can have a negative impact on some people causing them to delude themselves into believing that only they hold the correct interpretations of "the gospels".



You're a shining example of just how these religions can so easily go awry.

She just showed you in blood red words:

"SENT HIS SON AS AN ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS,"

Even I know this Cowboy.

This is the Heart and Soul of Christianity Cowboy.

Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of God sent to PAY for our sins.

You're trying to belittle this, yet this is the central core thesis of the religion!

Jesus was the ATONEMENT for your sins!

~~~~~~

At least I know what I'm OBJECTING to.

You keep forgetting Cowboy, I WAS a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN at one time. You act like I don't know what I'm talking about, but evidently I understand the religion far better than YOU do!

............Why did Jesus have to die on the cross to save us from SIN?............


This question is the core to our salvation. Too often Christians believe that they will reach heaven because they lead a "good life". This is a belief found in almost every religious group. If you do good, you will be saved.

I have bad news my friends. The Bible makes it clear that leading a "good life" is impossible: Rom 3:10 "There is no one righteous, not even one." And Rom 3:23: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

My friend, if you base your salvation on your own merit, you will not make! Rom. 5:21 tells us that there is only one way to get to heaven: "Through Jesus Christ our Lord." There is only one way to salvation: John 10:9 9: "I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture."

Eternal life is not given to those who try to do good, but to those who believe in Jesus and accept Him in their life. John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Why? Rom 5:8-10: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

We are saved by the blood of the Lamb. This is the only way to salvation! Jesus is the only answer for our salvation!

Is there any other way to obtain salvation?

Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Salvation can only be found through Jesus Christ! No other name can save you, not even your own!

It's not to late to accept Jesus in your life. Will you accept His salvation for you now?



______________

Preamble: There was no prophecy about the death of the Lord Jesus on the cross in the Old Testament. Although there was prophecy that he was to die from the Old Testament writings. It was not specifically stated that the Lord was to die on the cross. Both the Roman and the Jews were not having things in common in the historical record. However, when the Lord was to be crucified, they united in order to achieve the common goals.

Discussion:

Crucifixion was not practiced in the OT (where execution was by stoning) although dead bodies were occasionally hung on a tree as a warning (Dt. 21:22ff; cf. Gal. 3:13) Phoenicians and Carthaginians practiced it; the Romans later used it extensively, rarely for Romans citizens but usually for slaves, provincials and the lowest type of criminal.

There were 3 types of Cross: The T-shaped St Anthony's cross; the X-shaped St Andrews's cross, and the dagger-shaped cross which is likely to have been the one Jesus was crucified on, because of the inscription nailed to it above his head.

After a criminal was condemned, he was "scourged" with a ship with leather thongs, and then made to carry the crossbeam like a salve to the scene of his execution outside the city. He was stripped naked, laid on the ground with the crossbeam under his shoulders and his arms or hands tied or nailed to it. This was lifted and secured to be the upright so that the victim's feet (which were tied or nailed) were just clear of the ground.

The NT writers were more interested in the theological significance of what happened. Through the cross God reconciled Jew and Gentile to each other and to Himself. (Eph. 2:14ff).

The cross portrays Jesus Humility

Philippians 2:8

"And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!"

One of the biggest problems of humanity today is pride. Jesus humbled himself and died on the cross. The Lord is expecting humanity to be humbled and accept Him as Lord and Savoir.

He died on the Cross-to Prove His Messiah ship:

1 Cor. 1:23

"But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

The Symbolism of the cross is discipleship:

Mark 8:34 "When he called the crowd to Him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follows me.

This was Jesus speaking to the crowd. Since the cross was not an easy thing for Him to carry, he knew that Christianity calls for denial. He enjoined people to carry their cross (shun worldliness, sins and cares of this world) and follow him. Following Jesus calls for dedication, consecration, and sanctification.

Jesus Died on the Cross-to Reconcile Us:

Sinful people are God's enemies (Romans 5:10), the NT pictures God as a vigorous opponent of all that is evil. The way to reconciliation is to grapple with the root cause of the enmity. So Christ died to put away sin and so open up the way for true reconciliation between God and man.

Jesus Died in order to Redeem Mankind Back to God:

Sinful people are in bondage to sin (John 8:34) for which death is the only possible consequence (Roman 6:23). The cross of Christ is the price paid to release the slaves, to let the condemned prisoners go free. Even in the OT, where God is said to have redeemed his people from Egypt and where there is no actual 'price' paid, The NT word for this costly redemption occurs only 10 times (there is another word which means simply deliverance without a price being paid. The price is Christ's shed blood on the cross (Eph 1:7 cf. 1 Cor.6:19F.).

Conclusion:

The Christian response to that gracious provision is to live a life of service to Christ, which does not submit again to slavery of sin (Gal. 5:1).

Have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Personal Savior? Accept Him today and live forever more! The reason why He died on the Cross is to Redeem, Deliver, Save and Restore everything the enemy has stolen back to you.



______________

This is the crux of the true biblical gospel.

All throughout the history of creation, God had never executed complete justice. Even when he sent the great flood he still spared 8 people. He showed Noah and his family grace. Exodus 33:19, the Lord said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." God's compassion is for those that meet the requirement in John 3:16 "Whosoever believes in Him (Christ)" This means God will show mercy on those who trust in Jesus. Jesus died for all the people before and every one after.

Why Jesus had to die on the cross makes simple sense:

Romans 6:23 "The penalty of sin is death." Sin garners the death penalty and thus total separation from God. Jesus experienced both. On the cross, he cried out, "My God My God, why have you forsaken me?!?" In Hebrew as well, not in Aramaic. Also, when rabbis wanted to bring a passage to mind, they only had to quote the first portion. See Psalm 22 written centuries before the crucifixion... it describes it in prophetic detail.

The whole Jewish animal sacrificial system existed so that the world could understand what Jesus' sacrifice was. A goat can't truly die in a man's place, only another man can. AND only a sinless man can die for another's sin. And only God is without sin. One who has sinned must die for his own transgressions.

Why death, why not just punishment?

He had to die so he could be raised from the dead. The lynchpin of Christianity is the Resurrection. A dead savior isn't much of a savior. AND if Jesus stayed dead it was probably because he was a fraud and God killed him for his blasphemy.

Why crucifixion?

This is simple. One reason is for total humiliation of God. NO ONE can say, "Oh God's just up there on His throne being a party pooper!" No, the gospel says a living and loving God took it upon Himself to put on human flesh and enter our world of flesh and blood, of tears and death. God took the initiative when he didn't have to. God would have been totally justified to wipe us all out and still be just. But he's also loving. Christ's death on the cross satisfies both justice AND love. Crucifixion is especially humiliating because it's in public, it's slow, and its victim is completely helpless.

The Roman Empire used it on kings and criminals to show they didn't mess around. Furthermore, it served to satisfy prophecy which ties the bible together and gives one confidence that scripture was inspired by God. Crucifixion didn't exist until hundreds of years after Psalm 22. Secondly, many suggest that Jesus didn't die on the cross but just "fainted" and that he woke in the "cool of the cave". Of course this is absurd. For the Resurrection to be valid and unquestioned, EVERYONE had to know without a doubt that Jesus was dead. DEAD DEAD.

God chose the Romans to execute him because the Roman Empire was known then and throughout history since to not fail in executions. If the Roman soldiers who were charged with execution failed in their duty, they were put to death themselves. So you can imagine they made sure Jesus was dead. The spear in the side was confirmation, by the fact that water and blood came out. They knew how to crucify and they knew how to confirm death. God made sure to stamp out all doubt in a historical sense. He waited until the moment in history when everyone knew what crucifixion meant before sending His Son to the cross.



______________

First of all it is necessary to understand why no one else could do it. When Adam sinned it was in fact a sell out to Satan. Adam may not have realized the full consequences of what he did but nevertheless, he was disobedient to God. Prior to this Satan (Lucifer, as he was known then) rebelled in heaven and managed to gain the support of a third of the angels.

Revelation 12:7-AV And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:3-AV And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4-AV And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Luke 10:18-AV And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

After seducing Eve and Adam to sin, Satan became the prince of this world.

John 12:31-AV Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John was talking about Satan being defeated by Jesus. But what really happened here? Let us go back to the book of Job where Satan is pictured as the prince of this world in a dramatic way.

Job 1:6-AV Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7-AV And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

There are two occasions such as this mentioned in Job. What I believe happens is that God, from time to time calls a conference of planetary leaders. Certainly the language explains that Satan appeared there as the prince of earth. God did not show him the door but permitted him to attend the conference since it was his right, as owner of the earth and mankind, to do so. He had been defeated in Heaven when he mounted what we would call a military coup, and was cast out, but had now gained a planet of his own to call home.

But how could we get it back? Why, by redemption of course. The redemption process given to the Jews so that they would understand the big picture, provided for a purchase agreement to be drawn up when a man sold land or slaves. This agreement would also include an agreed redemption price and other conditions of sale like how long the new owner would be able to remain (to get a crop off for instance) after the redemption price was paid. Either the man who sold the property could redeem it or a direct descendent such as a son. If the ‘tenant’ refused to vacate the land or return the slave, the redeemer could open the seals on the original purchase agreement, and with the open document as his authority, use whatever force was necessary to take back the possession. There was a 50 year limit on any such sale to safeguard family property put there by God for man’s benefit.

However there is no such limit involving the big picture. Now since the wages of sin is death, according to God, the redemption of the earth required the blood sacrifice (death) of a man, Adam or a descendent. This man of course, had to be in the same moral condition as Adam was when the deal was made. Are you starting to get the picture? Mankind could never produce a redeemer! As a condition of Adam’s fall, every child born of man was born into legal slavery to Satan (original sin).

Now God had a couple of options open to Him here. The easy way was to let things run their course and when Satan had demonstrated the utter haplessness of his position to the watching universe, just zap the earth, Satan, mankind and all. That of course would have meant that everyone who ever lived on the planet would only have the time allotted to them here as a life and not have a chance for eternal life which was what was originally intended when we were created.

The other option was to somehow provide a way mankind, and the earth, could be redeemed. And the only way to do this was for God Himself, in the form of His Son, to take on human flesh as a man and pay the redemption price for mankind. It had to be the Son part of the Godhead that did this because the Father had to remain aloof. In fact we are told that this plan was made before the world began. God had foreknowledge of what mankind would do and provided a solution even before creating him.

We all know the story of how the Holy Spirit caused the conception of the baby in the virgin Mary. Since he was not conceived of man, but of God, He was able to be born without the ‘original sin’ condition common to all mankind. Because this redemption thing had to be done by a Man and not a God, Jesus was totally unable to use any divine power while He went through this process. He was also tempted severely by Satan, who gave his personal attention to the task, because not being stupid, he knew what was being done here. Jesus could have sinned just as Adam did. Imagine what might have resulted if that had happened!

Now because Satan had such an interest in getting Jesus to sin, even to think an angry thought, he arranged for Him to be killed by the cruellest and most horrible means ever thought up by an evil mankind. Maybe he could get Jesus to get angry with the soldiers who were torturing him. When that didn’t happen he arranged for one of the thieves to tempt Jesus to use His divine power to come down off the cross. He could have done that, but it would have meant failing His mission.

It was known beforehand what method would be used to kill Jesus because when the children of Israel were in the desert at one time they were being bitten by a plague of poisonous snakes. God gave instructions to make a brass serpent and hang it on a cross. Any snake bitten Israeli who looked upon the brass serpent on the cross was healed of the snake bite. This was a prelude to when Jesus, (who took upon Himself the sins of the world and was therefore pictured as a snake, a symbol of sin), would be hoisted up on a cross and all who look upon Him (believe in Him) will be healed of sin and have everlasting life.

Jesus paid the redemption price for the earth and mankind and as the result of this, we all now belong to Jesus, or can if we choose to. In Revelation we are given a vision of the Father holding up a scroll sealed with seven seals, and calling for someone to take the scroll. Only one being could come forward and take that scroll, and He is pictured both as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and as a Lamb, slain. Our redeemer, Jesus. He took the scroll out of the Father’s hand and proceeded to open the seals. We are given other visions of history, prophecy when Revelation was written, as each seal is opened. When the last seal is opened, there are thunders, and lightening and great noise and Jesus comes back to earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords to take back his possession by force.

My study of prophecy and that of every other bible student I have encountered, reveals that this time is almost upon us. There is now quite an urgency to spread the Gospel message of salvation while we are still able.

I pray that readers not already saved will do something about it. And that those who are, will be taken with this sense of urgency I and others now feel.








http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/salvation/Die_on_the%20cross.html

ok I studied up on it a bit and it seems the new covenant started with the resurrection of Jesus Christ. My apologies, didn't mean to cause any form of confusion. Was learning myself. And had questions and previous thoughts on the matter. Again, I apologize for any form of confusion.