Eternal punishment.... what kind of "life" is that?

yea but you said..

" Death is automatically a punishment placed on the Human race" and more to the effect..

so is death life or life death.. if we all die and then all come back to life then logic tells me.. and i can be hard headed.

That life eternal is a gift then looks to me like everyone is given a gift just a different one but still a gift from JC.. did i read that wrong, death and life

How is eternal punishment, life? What kind of life would one have? They would have none, they would not be able to go where they wished, when they wished, or even go anywhere at all. Would be eternal punishment, that is not "life". Life is living and sharing moments with one another.

Death is automatic because of what the humans have done to and or with God eg., disobedience. Through Jesus one can receive forgiveness of these trespasses and be rewarded eternal life. They will then be resurrected at the second coming of our Christ, being given life once again.

Let me be more specific, since there is the myth of eternal punishment. And I wasn't real clear on it in this discussion. This verse shows what I'm trying to say. There is no "eternal" burning. One that does not receive eternal life is destroyed, known as the second death. I'm sorry bout my previous statements on this, was not thinking and I hope I've not caused any confusion.

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It is referred to as eternal punishment for the punishment stands for eternity. One will either die eternally or have life eternally.

thats better.

death is death and life is a gift.

no eternal damnation for those who can die.. the refusers they just end.. this was thier only life

Correct, notice it says eternal "destruction", not torture, punishment, or anything of such. Just flat out destruction.

2Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I'm familiar with the story Cowboy. I don't buy into it. It sounds utterly stupid to me. I don't believe that any supposedly "all-wise" God could possible be as utterly stupid as this scenario suggests. I've already pointed out that, IMHO, it's extremely stupid to think that this God would somehow be appeased by having himself, or his son, nailed to a pole to "PAY" for the sins of mankind. That is totally insane as far as I'm concerned.

If this story makes sense to you, so be it.

However, for you to continually try to convince other people who have already read the story and have rejected is to truly nothing more than insult your very own God.

Why?

Well, if I've already read the book and I've come away from it totally unimpressed and feeling that it's the stupidest story I have ever read, then what makes YOU think that you could change my mind, when supposedly the very "God" that you claim you worship couldn't even convince me via his own book?

All you are basically doing is arrogantly proclaiming that you might be able to outdo your very own God by somehow getting through to people that even your God himself could not convince.

How utterly absurd is that?

If the Bible is "God's Word" and God himself has totally FAILED to convince someone of this, then how arrogant would it be for YOU, or any other mere mortal person, to believe that you could somehow succeed where your God had FAILED?

Think about that for while.

If both God and Jesus have FAILED to convince people of the truth of their very own words, how pathetic would it be that they had to rely on YOU, or any other mere mortal person, to succeed where they had failed.

This religion is clearly not from God. It's entirely a man-made theasco.

Some of the most intelligent humans on the planet have rejected the biblical story.

Albert Einstein, Issac Newton, Richard Feynman, Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, and the list goes on and on.

Do you honestly believe that these people are all rejecting "God".

No way. That is utterly insane.

They simply don't believe that any all-wise God could be as utterly stupid as the ancient Hebrews claim. They realize that the biblical stories can't have any more validity than the Greek stories of their Gods and Goddesses.

And if this God himself could not convince people via his very own book, then how absurdly arrogant would it be of any mortal person to believe that they could outdo God by convincing people that God himself failed to convince.

That's pretty much proof positive right there that the religion cannot possibly be true.

Thessalonians was written by Paul.

Try looking up the words that were at least claimed to have been said by Jesus,....

Matt.25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You can't endure everlasting punishment if you're no longer around to endure it.

These entire scriptures are nothing but a collection of convoluted rumors. And NONE of it was even written by Jesus himself. Not a single solitary word of it. It's all hearsay rumors by other people.

If some God actually wanted to communicate to humanity such an all-important message why even bother leaving it up to morons to write it down as belated and conflicting hearsay?

If Jesus was "THE WORD" in the flesh, then surely he could have written everything down precisely as he wanted it to be stated leaving no room for any ambiguity.

Clearly that DID NOT HAPPEN. And thus it's unrealistic to believe that these hearsay rumors came from any "all-wise" God.

Leaving such an important message to hearsay rumors and gossip is clearly NOT WISE.

End of story, right there.

What are you talking about? God wasn't pleased with Jesus being crucified. Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the old testament, that is what completed the old covenant. Not particularly the crucifixion.



Well cause for one, I'm not trying to change your mind, convince you, or anything of such. This is a discussion forum. We come to discuss our different beliefs. This isn't a discussion between you and I, this is a discussion between the forum readers of Mingle2 and I. If you already knew something that is being posted in this forum, good for you. But it's not directed at you. Only addressing the topic at hand best as I can.



God doesn't have a problem with convincing anyone. God doesn't have to. It was man that walked away from God with sin, God didn't forsake anyone. It is us that needs to return to God if one wishes to. Not God to drag him in, for God never left in the first place, again it was man that left God.



Again, it's not God failing at anything. If one doesn't believe and chooses that all their life. It is that person whom failed, not God. It's not God's job to bring us back, for we are the one's that separate ourselves from God with our disobedience.

Now you're just trying to pick a fight. The two verses say the same thing. Everlasting punishment and eternal death are the same things. Does it say everlasting torture? No, everlasting punishment. The punishment that will be everlasting is death.

so you answered what i thought you were saying along time ago.

with The Myth of Eternal Punishment.

anyone who believes this Myth or preaches a hell fire forever torment is a liar.

They do not have the spirit and are workers of Satan to decieve the world.

They..are preaching and practising this..

Rom 1:28-2:1

28 And even as they did not like to retain Elohim in their knowledge, Yahweh gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of Yahweh, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents , 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of Yahweh, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


NKJV


since they are ...

Rev 2:9-10
I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan .
NKJV


Like Martin Luther might of took Jews literally yet we know they call themselves chr-stians.

and anyone who believes "The Myth of Eternal Punishment"

its sad that web site about Hells Fire says between 90 and 99% are not true chr-stian and will spend eternal life not death in torment.

its true it says he has a small flock and they do not preach eternal torture in Hell.. Blessings of Shalom..Miles

For someone who isn't trying to convince other people of his beliefs you sure spend enough time making excuses for your religion and its God.

None of that matters anyway. What I've stated it still true. Any god who would need your help to communicate with people would be one extremely lame god for sure. So it really doesn't even matter what you think you're trying to do or not do.

What I was talking about really has nothing to do with you. What it has to do with is ANY GOD, who would need ANY MORTAL person's help to communicate his message would be a lame God.

That FACT is really totally independent of any religion or proselytizer of a religion.

The bottom line is that "ANY" religion that needs proselytizers, evangelists, or even independent religious zealots, to communicate to people what the "God" of the religion actually "meant" in his supposed Holy Book, is necessarily a false religion.

So this really has nothing to do with you or your religion. It's just an observation that applies to any and all religions where the proselytizers are trying desperately to convince people of what their God actually "meant" to say in his Holy Book.

Clearly all they are attempting to do is shove their own personal interpretations of dogma down the throats of others.

I just heard on the radio that some group of people in Europe are suing the Abrahamic religions for being a crime against humanity with their constant proselytizing harassment, telling people that God will hate them if they don't support a particular religion.

I totally agree. These religions have truly become nothing more than political terrorism.

It will all come to a head at some point and their will finally be international laws against the proselytizing of religions, and or the public claiming that some God will not accept or like people if they don't support a particular interpretation of a particular dogma.

I'm in total agreement that these are indeed "Hate Crimes" being that use the concept of a jealous God to emotionally terrorize people by threatening them that if they fail to cower down to a particular interpretation of dogma some God will hate them.

This can be quite emotionally harmful especially to young people who are unsure of what to believe and often look to adults for advice.

Having the adults fight over who God might accept or reject is truly disgusting Cowboy.

This world would be far better off without any religion at all if that's all it's going to be. Continued religious bigotry and segregation of "Us verses Them" based on what a personal chooses to believe in terms of religion.

That's just disgusting.

Hmmmmmmmmmm....

So.....here we have satan, who is in all out REBELLION against

GOD; and therefore ,is out to WIN as many souls as possible!!!


Ok....here is a question....and please...give this very

serious consideration now:



Do you think satan will do EVERYTHING he can , TO

DECEIVE many many many people into Believing

There IS A HELL , in order to WIN as many

souls as possible ???



Or



Do you think satan will do EVERYTHING he can , TO

DECEIVE many many many people into Believing

There IS NOT A HELL, in order to

WIN as many SOULS as possible ???




What thinkest thou....




http://www.gotquestions.org/hellfire-preaching.html

There are 2 main tactics that the enemy

uses to try and win souls, and turn many away from God.


One is by working thru false teachers, who present either a

watered down gospel;

or , who present a false gosplel entirely( mixed

with "some" truth, in order to deceive ).



Another main tactic that the enemy uses to turn people away

from God, is by operating thru religious spirits , or

Religious CONDEMNATION.

These are the religious spirits operating thru "religious

folk", who preach hate messages, and condemn people to hell,

instead of preaching the Gospel of

Good News in Love......and ALLOWING the POWER of GOD'S WORD

to be at Work, and DRAWING Souls unto God, instead.




The enemy is a very clever ,deceptive,

cunning, and crafy liar, who loves ESPECIALLY, to work

from "within" the "church".


What better way to wins souls ?


Yes?

Yes you are exactly right.

Thats why people must study for themselves.

Yahweh says thier must be 2 witnesses.

Thats how we test the Spirits whether its of Yahweh or not.

The schoolmaster is our 1st witness.. the WORD that was given us through Yahshua as John 1 says. now the 2nd witness of the Word in the Flesh came to show us how its done.

ANYONE who does not do what Yahshua did as he is perfect and told us also to be. which is to try your best.

They are the enemy of Yahweh.. not ones who just do not believe the True Enemy are those who say they believe and preach to others another aEvangel that Yahshua never preached.

I see you say that MS the question is do you follow your example and do as he did?

Do you practice the Law which made Yahshua perfect or the one he came to end. Mans twisting of the law for thier own good? Blessings..Miles

I personally thinkest that the very idea of a wicked fallen angel being in competition with God for souls is an utterly absurd idea.


Moreover, this would be a religion where the God actually LOSES the vast majority of souls that he creates. According to the New Testament of this religion Jesus states that the path is straight and the gate is narrow that leads to the Kingdom of God and few will make it.

That can only mean that this Satan fellow is the WINNER of most of the souls that God creates whilst God is the LOSER of most souls.

Does anyone ever THINK about how silly these fables truly are?

A God who is in competition with a fallen angel for souls?

And this God even had to have himself nailed to a pole in the process to offer salvation to a FEW souls because he would have otherwise lost ALL of the souls he created?

Step back from the story and forget about being a human. Just look at the overall story from the perspective of someone outside of this whole scenario. What would you see?

You would see a God in competition with a fallen angel for winning the souls that this God creates and LOSING at that game!

That would be a pretty sad predicament for both the humans and the God. The only winner in this whole scenario would be the evil demon who has made life miserable for BOTH God and humans.

This would be a story of an evil demon who is making God JUMP THROUGH HOOPS, not the least of which would have been getting the God nailed to a pole in the process.


Like I say, forget about being a human. Just think about this situation in connection with some other God, demon, and souls.

It would be a really pathetic situation for everyone, except possibly the evil demon since he apparently thrives on making life miserable for others!

I wouldn't want to be involved in it for sure. And I most certainly wouldn't be drawn to want to believe in such a pathetic situation on PURE FAITH.

On the contrary pure atheism would be a far more inviting picture than this theasco.

There is no "competition" for anything. Cause if someone makes it to Heaven or not is not the fault of either Satan or God. It is the fault of the person in mention. God only "shows" people the way, he doesn't force them down the path of righteousness. And so as Satan only tempts people, not forces them. So again, it couldn't be a competition between the two for the two have no direct influence on the outcome.

The people of the world have the direct influence on the outcome, if they choose to obey our God or not. It is again, their choice, their doings. God looses nothing, it the people who would be the one's with the loss.

You don't seem to get it.

If a God creates souls and loses them to a Devil then the God lost the soul that he created. Period.

It's a story about a losing creator.

You keep trying to make it out to be all about humans. But like I said before, that can't be made to work. If there actually is an evil demon who is competing with the creator for souls, than that war, or game, or whatever it is, is entirely between the God and the Demon.

Any humans in the process are nothing more than pawns in a stupid game between a God and a Demon.