............Why Did God Sacrifice His Son for the Sins of Mankind?............




Genesis 3:21 states the first known blood covenant God made with man in His great love, for the forgiveness of sin.

In that blood covenant, God sacrificed an innocent perfect lamb which provided sanctification and a covering of their exposure or nakedness which was in essence an awakening to their senses as knowing the difference between right and wrong for the first time.

In light of that, God had set up a religious system for the cleansing of sin on a continual basis which was practiced by God’s people as a means of atonement.

At regular times throughout the year, the High Priest, who was the only one capable of going before the presence of God on behalf of the people, regulated the atonement.

Knowing man’s incapability to maintain perfection by means of the law that was set up in the old covenant, God’s compassion and great love for mankind allowed for a NEW covenant.

This would be an everlasting covenant to be established through the SENDING of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus became the true Lamb of God that took away the sins of the world and bring peace and restoration to a broken relationship between God and His people once and for all.


This covenant is from everlasting to everlasting and has eternal significance to the soul of man. Our souls were destined for eternal punishment because of our inability to be righteous and tendency to given in to temptations.


Praise God that Jesus became that High Priest for us.
In Hebrews 2:5, it states,

For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. But one testifies in a certain place, saying, “What is man that You are mindful of him, or the Son of man that You take care of him? You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor. And set him over the works of Your hands. You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him. He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.


Also, it says in Isaiah 53:10:
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him. He has put Him to grief when you make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great.


Jesus our High Priest forevermore ,died so we could be set free from eternal death. GOD SAW FIT TO MAKE THE SACRIFICE OF HIS ONLY SON, JESUS CHRIST, as a seed sown for the harvest of our souls for eternity and so we could be redeemed into the family of God.


Do You Want a Relationship with God?

If you want this kind of relationship with God, pray this prayer right now:

Lord Jesus Christ, I believe that you took the pain of the cross to give me new life. I ask you to come into my life and to give me your peace and joy. I confess that I am a sinner -- that I have gone my own way and have done wrong. Please forgive me for my sins. I receive you now as my Lord and Savior. Please fill me with your Holy Spirit. Help me to follow you and to serve you all my life. Thank you, Lord Jesus. Amen.


If you prayed that prayer, you are now a child of God. The things of your old life have passed away and He has made all things new.





http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/evangelism/Gambino_Sins.aspx

........................Brian Cole’s Testimony former J/W for 30years...........................


Brian Cole’s Testimony, June 2003
(Former Jehovah’s Witness of 30 years)


I was a Jehovah’s Witness for 30 years — from ages 16 to 46. My mother became a member before I was born. I can’t remember a time when we didn’t attend meetings at the Kingdom Hall. Not long after graduating from high school, I was invited to serve at the Watchtower headquarters in Brooklyn, NY. I lived and worked there from 1974 to 1979.

Thereafter, I moved to Oregon and began work as a field minister — eventually becoming a “pioneer,” that is, spending about 20 hours a week in a public outreach work: mostly house-to-house canvassing and conducting Bible lessons. For more than 20 years, I also served as a minister — which involved public teaching, congregation oversight, and consultations with those facing problems in their lives.

And, from 1987 to 1989, I was a “circuit overseer,” a full-time traveling representative of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. During that time, I supervised 21 congregations in Northern Minnesota. However, I had to come back to Oregon because of health issues. I started to get better in March 1990, and was able to resume my work as a minister in the local community.

I’ve worked as a newspaper reporter for about the last six years. However, I was offered a higher-paying job as a technical writer for a software start-up company. After working there for 14 months, I was laid off in March of this year. I went back to working at the daily newspaper. But while I was a tech writer, I was on the Internet all day. I would scan media and other Web sites for a few minutes at a time, and would then get back to my work.

One day in the fall of 2001, I decided to see if my aunt’s church had a Web site. I entered “Apostolic Faith and Portland” into the Google Web directory. I came upon the Apostolic Faith Church’s Web site and began to look it over. My Aunt Gertie has been a Christian since before I was born. She is the genuine article, a pillar of faith. I turned to her as a resource. The exchange of letters and phone calls with her helped me come to Christ.

At about the same time, I was reading material on Web sites that were critical of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I had questions, and doubts, about some the things I had believed and taught for so many years. Now, I wanted to put them to the test: Is what I have believed all these years really the truth? The only truth? I had to know. (More about that later.)

I disassociated myself from the WT organization in May 2002. In the time since then I’ve learned I had to pretty much start over, build a new biblical foundation. There are still a few things that I think the JWs have right, but most of their doctrines have proven to be UNBIBLICAL.

The first issue that bothered me was counting and reporting hours spent in field service. I have always tried to support my beliefs with what the Bible says. But there is nothing in the New Testament that even remotely suggests we should keep track of hours and report them to the congregation.

I also felt “counting time” sends the wrong message — too works-oriented. We should simply spread the Gospel. My disillusionment with JW beliefs was accelerated by reading critical literature of ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses and others.

The JW leadership tells the flock to never accept or read such literature, an argument that comes from a position of weakness, I believe. If JWs have the truth, what is there to be afraid of? Perhaps the Governing Body would rather ignore doctrinal inconsistencies and historical foibles.

The next big revelation was that the Trinity REALLY IS a Bible teaching. I began to read and study mainstream translations and saw places where Jesus is clearly presented as Almighty God.

I was STUNNED to discover that the 1984 NWT Reference Bible admits that Col. 2:9 says that Jesus is God? The main text says that in him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” But the footnote for “divine quality” says that the Greek “theotetos” is literally rendered “Godship.” So I took the footnote and placed it in the main text.

Thus, “it is in Christ that ALL the fullness of the Godship dwells bodily.” Therefore, Jesus IS everything the Father IS. Also, all Christians have the hope of going to heaven. The NT presents no other hope.

Recall Eph 4:4, 5 say there is but: “one Lord, one faith, one baptism,” and “one hope to which you were called.” There is no “earthly class” of Christians. There was only one hope, in the first century and only one today. This is confirmed by such passages as Romans 8:14: “For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons” (NWT), and 1 John 5:1: “Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God” (NWT).

I could see that these statements apply to me, too! To anybody who accepts Christ. There are at least two factors that KEEP JWs FROM TRUE CHRISTIANITY : (1) Their faithful and discreet slave doctrine, and (2) the New World Translation.


When Jesus spoke of this slave at Matthew 25:45-47, there is NO indication that he was setting up a special class of Christians. He was exhorting Christian leaders to take good care of the sheep in their churches, and not be slothful and abusive like “that evil slave.”

Second, I believe the NWT is the most biased translation in English. I began to read mainstream Bible translations, ones produced by truly qualified translators.

Examples include the New American Standard Bible, and the New International Version. The NWT New Testament does all it can to CONCEAL the Deity of Christ!!!

When you read a legitimate translation, it is plain to see that Christ IS God Almighty.

As you can tell from my testimony, it took some time for me to come to Jesus. That’s the key. Some former JWs seem to flounder after leaving the WT. On the other hand, some probably think I jumped from the frying pan into the fire by fellowshipping in a fundamentalist church. For me, however, my disillusionment with JW doctrine did not affect my love for God, Jesus and the Bible. So I joined with a group that helped me find Jesus, and be saved. I found among them strong evidence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, Christians aren’t perfect. In fact, Christians will always need fine-tuning as long as they are in this world. Phil. 2:6 says that “He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” That gives me assurance Christ will never give up in me, continue to work with me.

I miss my Witness friends, but they truly believe Jehovah expects them to SHUN me, and all other DFed or DAed persons. I was at one time a staunch elder. I have many regrets because I hurt people under the category of doing what was “right.” What I THOUGHT was right.

But Jesus’ yoke is “easy and his load is light.” I pray for my JW brothers and sisters. As for “new light,” I came to appreciate the statement at Jude 3: “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” All the light a Christian will ever need was established and “delivered” to the first-century Christian congregation. It’s all been there for 2,000 years!


In early 2002, something was stirring inside me. I read and re-read about Salvation, Sanctification and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Apostolic Faith Church Web site. I was attracted to these basic Bible teachings — experiences I had never had, nor what I ever thought I could experience.

I wrote a letter to my aunt, asking her to tell me about salvation and Jesus Christ. My somewhat hesitant questions to her were my first step toward the Lord. Later, during my period of correspondence with headquarters staff member Sam A., he wrote me that he was certain the Lord was DRAWING me. “Very definitely,” he wrote. He was right. I also made inquiries of other Christian research Web sites. To me, some of them came off as arrogant, condescending. But Sam never did. His humble and clear answers to my Bible questions were appealing. We became friends — and eventually, brothers — over the early months of 2002.

But even though I was beginning to SEE CRACKS in the belief system I had espoused for three decades, I was struggling against the plain, simple truth of the Gospel. But, if I was to adopt a different faith after all these years, it would greatly affect me. I would have to break away from the legalistic structure I had lived with, and advocated my entire adult life.

First, I would be excommunicated, “disfellowshipped,” or would be considered one who “disassociated” himself from the congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I would lose virtually every friend, as I would be shunned by all Jehovah’s Witnesses. The apostolic injunctions: ‘Don’t invite him in your homes; not even eating with such a man’; and ‘never say a greeting to him’ are taken to an EXTREME degree, and OVERUSED, by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The Governing Body of JWs is responsible for the doctrine of shunning. I don’t blame the average witness, or even the elders. They’ve all been taught to believe God requires them to SHUN disfellowshipped persons. The loss of friends, some of them for most of my life, has been painful. But Jesus said whatever we lose for choosing Christ will be offset a hundredfold, even in this world, and in the one to come.

God has kept His word. When I left JWs, it was an immediate relief from incessant “do-more” pressure. But I still needed a place to land. That place is a person: JESUS CHRIST.

I now know the Lord continued to lead me; he never let go of my hand. I could not escape the powerful testimony of the Scriptures. I could not shake off the simple beauty of the Gospel. I finally made my “pilgrimage” to my aunt’s church in late May 2002. I attended church services with my family on the Friday evening of my visit.

When I walked into the church for the Sunday evening services, I didn’t feel well. But I enjoyed the music and singing. And was affected by the testimonies I heard. My 15-year-old niece related how the Lord had saved her the previous Friday night. At the end of the service, I went to the prayer altar at the front of the auditorium, this time offer praise and thanks.

Suddenly, I was overcome. I cried harder than any other time I can remember. Jesus had come into my heart. I wasn’t sad. I had no reason to cry. But I experienced a profound feeling of relief and peace. Someone later told me: ‘God knows the language of tears.’ The brothers who were praying with me and for me all seemed to sigh in relief. They knew what I was feeling. I had received the witness of the “Spirit with my own spirit, that I was a child of God,” as stated in Romans 8:16. By the great mercy and grace of the Lord, I had been saved!

Since then, I have been safe in the Lamb, Jesus. But as the Apostle Paul wrote at Romans 3:27-31, I had nothing to boast of. “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” (vr. 27) It was Jesus who made me righteous in the eyes of God. He did for me what I could never do for myself. Boasting was “excluded.” It was the Lord who did this, by His grace.

Since then, I have tried to thank my brothers and sisters because they all prayed for me. I can’t begin to know how many people I’ve met who told me: ‘Oh, yes. I’ve prayed for you.’ The Lord has answered so many of my prayers, and given me so many provisions. “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Rom. 7:25)


An excellent popular history of Christianity is, “Church History in Plain Language.” It gave me a picture of how Christianity really developed, warts and all, over the centuries. It is a record of my true Christian heritage. This book helped me get my bearings. There is so much more. I will be happy to try to answer anyone’s questions. Feel free to send me an email, using the hyperlink below.


http://www.craom.net/briancole.htm

i am a little bit lost here,
ok! Let me make my believe clear;
i believe in the Trinity.
I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.
I believe they are One God.

So do I....

By the way, it didn't go over my head. Yes God may have sent his son to do this, not denying this. But he wouldn't have had to do this if we didn't sin, so thus he didn't HAVE to send his son. But because of our failings, he did.



I'll explain why I said this in more detail. God didn't "have" his son crucified, it wasn't done for his pleasure. We put Jesus on that cross because of our failures. If we weren't disobedient and didn't fail the father, there would have been no need to fulfill the first covenant. There would have been no need for Jesus to have been crucified. For again, if we weren't disobedient there would have been no sins to be atoned.

I NEVER once said this, why you assume such things?

This is supposed to be a story of a CREATOR, not of a fascist dictator.

It is utterly insane to have a CREATOR who punishes people for not obeying him, when it is in fact, HIS demand that they do obey him.

In other words, if he CREATED people for the sole purpose of having them obey him, then it would be utterly foolish for him to punish those who don't. That would be an extremely evil act on his part. Especially considering the fact that he must necessarily being doing this via a pure crap shoot!

He obviously does not have the POWER to create soles who are actually designed to have the same desires and will that he has. After all, if he had the POWER to design such creatures then he would not need to even worry about whether or not they would be willing to "obey" him. They would already all have precisely the same wants and desires that he has.

So in order for this story to even make sense at all, this God necessarily has to be POWERLESS to create soles in his own image (unlike the claims being made by these false fables).

This God would be creating souls on a crap shoot. And when he punishes sole who don't measure up to his wants and desires all he's doing is displaying his own immature ability to control his own frustrations over the fact that he is indeed POWERLESS to create soles that are anything at all like himself.

All this story amounts to is a tale of a pathetic God who is totally frustrated with himself because he cannot create soles who have the same wants and desires as himself. So he takes out his frustration on the soles he creates by punishing them with crude and rude punishments when in fact all of this can only be due to his own ineptitude of a creator.

If a creator is so inept to begin with that he can't even create the kind of soles that he desires, then he should also be mature enough to take on the responsibility of putting them out of their misery peacefully. If anything, this God should be offering everyone who doesn't wish to obey him an apology for having created them in the first place!

Threatening to punish them because he isn't pleased with them would be extremely selfish and arrogant on his part.

Just because a being has the POWER to create life does not dismiss them from the need to be responsible for what they create.

This would be like you creating life and then being mean to it because it simply doesn't agree with YOUR moral standards. That's nonsense. If you had actually created that life from scratch, and it didn't turn out the way you had hope you would be totally out of line taking out the frustrations of YOUR INEPTITUDE on the creation that YOU FAILED to create in a way that satisfied your desires.

There is no justification for any God to be punishing the objects of its very own creation. That's a ludicrous idea right there.

~~~~~~

I would even hold this same standard over mortal human parents. Although they are POWERLESS to "create" life. They have no control over the genetics or anything else of their offspring. When mortal parents have a child they truly are taking a wild chance at what might be produced from their procreation. In other words, they are actually experiencing God's CRAP SHOOT.

Just the same, if they have a child who happens to be "defective" via the very simply definition that the child didn't turn out as they has wished, then it's foolish to blame the child for this. The fault can only be one of the following:

1. The Child was genetically or medically defective in the first place (and that can indeed include mental illnesses)

And let's not forget that "mental illness" by definition can basically include any consistent behavior that is deemed to be inappropriate by the bulk of society (i.e. what is considered to be the norm)

So, in other words, any child who has an abnormally high desire to harm others, or show extreme disrespect for others, is automatically "mentally ill" by that definition.

There's really not even any need to bring a concept of "sin" into the picture. All that truly exists by this definition is mental illness.

A person is either mentally healthy (i.e. they have respect for themselves and others), or they are mentally ill (i.e. they have no respect for themselves and others)

There can be no 'sin' in such a world. All that exists in this case is either "healthy" or "unhealthy" minds.

It's ludicrous to "punish" a mentally ill person for being mentally ill.

Yet this is what the Biblical GOD must necessarily be guilty of!

He is unable to distinguish between his own limitations as a creator, and the behavior of the objects of his creation.

That would be a foolish and ignorant God.

~~~~~~

2. A second reason that a child could turn out in a way that the parents aren't happy with could simply be a failure on the part of the parents themselves. Poor mentoring, and/or mixed messages can result in a child that becomes confused and ultimately rebellious against their parents wishes.

Well the Biblical God fails miserably in both of these areas. The Biblical good is an extremely poor communicator and mentor. The Abrahamic tales of God are extremely convoluted and filled with contradictions, inconsistencies, and mixed messages.

There can be absolutely no denying this.

The Abrahamic religions have fallen apart from the original Judaism, into Islam, Catholicism, and a myriad of arguing rebellious Protestants. None of whom agree on what this God supposedly wants from us or which "doctrine" should officially represent the directives, commandments, and desires of this God.

So there can be absolutely no denying that the Abrahamic God has sent vastly mixed messages that have fallen all to pieces and have no solid foundation at all.

This God could not blame anyone for not believing in any of the many convoluted mixed messages of the Abrahamic religions. This God would represent a "parent" who has absolutely no clue of how to properly mentor his children.

The Jews themselves (the original CHOSEN people of this God) reject the rumors of Jesus as being "The Christ". And they point out quite clearly that this cannot possibly be true because Jesus was never handed the throne of King David by God (which the prophecies make perfectly clear should be the case for any REAL messaih)

Therefore anyone who DOESN'T worship Judaism is actually following a false version of this religion.

But regardless of which of the many fragmented versions of the Abrhamic religion you might follow, the mere fact that they are fragmented already established the fact that they "God" of this religion is a horribly mentor and therefore a horrible parent.

Moreover, what about the rest of HIS CHILDREN? Why does he allow so many other cultures to worship totally different Gods?

That would be like you allowing your children to go and obey some other kids parents and ignore you without you even making an attempt to explain to them that they have made a mistake.

You can't just hide in the corner of one little culture on Earth paying attention to your "chosen children" and expect all your less revered children all around the Globe to accept your teachings to that one culture.

That itself is a ludicrous behavior to expect from a supposedly ALL-POWERFUL God.

An all-powerful God should be able to communicate with all of his children equally. And if he can't do that, then he was irresponsible in the first place by creating more children than he could properly mentor directly.

He shouldn't have bitten off more than he can chew.

~~~~~~~~~~

There are just way too many things that these Hebrew Fables fail to consider when they pretend to speak for a supposedly all-powerful God. These fables necessarily reduce God to being irresponsible and grossly inept, and far from all-powerful.

The whole thing is truly absurd.

It can't be true.

It's just a false myth that has no more merit than any other mythological tales of a human-like Godhead.

You can makes "excuses" for this religion all day long, but in truth, no amount of excuses would suffice. There is no excuse for this religion. The God this religion describes simply does not live up to the character traits and infinite power and wisdom that it's supposed to have.

No science required to dismiss these myths.

They are clearly false based on their own ineptitude.

This right here tells me you don't know what free will is. If God would have done as you state, we would have been nothing more then robots, puppets, ect. What would be the point in that? God wants us to make our will his will, not for us to automatically programmed to do as such. He wants it to be heart felt, and desired. For again, what would be the purpose in making us if he would have just made us to automatically obey him without no real thought to it? That wouldn't be again heart felt, would not have been OUR desire, OUR will.

The whole problem with the Adam and Eve story is that if Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between right and wrong BEFORE they ate the forbidden fruit, then they could not have understood that it would be WRONG to do so.

Thus they would have had to have made the "fall from grace" in a state of complete innocence of the fact that they were doing something "WRONG".

So the fable falls flat on its face right there with the story of Adam and Eve and the "fall from grace".

Yet this God punishes ALL WOMEN with painful childbirth, and to be the subjective slaves to their men, as punishment for Eve's SIN.

But Eve could not have committed any "sin" if she wasn't even aware of right from wrong to begin with.

This would be like a human parent expecting a baby who doesn't know right from wrong to obey them.

"Don't try to climb out of your crib!"

The child had no clue what was even said much less that it would be wrong to disobey the direct. The baby tries to climb out of the crip and the irate parent curses the baby with punishment that will follow the baby all the rest of its days.



That's what we'd need to believe this God is like.

If Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong before they ate the forbidden fruit then they couldn't have understood that it would be "wrong" to eat it.

The fable shoots itself in the foot with it's opening scenario.






If this God was truly omniscient and truly knew everything, then he would have know that mankind was incapable of maintaining perfection from the get go.

Therefore there would be no need for this God to CHANGE any covenants. He could have just gotten it RIGHT the first time.

Yet another failure of these fables.

They require that their God actually had to change the way he deals with mankind because he clearly wasn't AWARE of mankind's frailties in the beginning.

This flies in the face of a supposedly all-knowing God who should have understood his creation from DAY ONE.




But in truth, there are lots of things that are beyond the subjection of man.

Plague from viruses and bacteria for example. Not to mention natural disasters.

Back when these fables were written it was still believe that the "God" itself was responsible for sending plagues and natural disasters, so since these things were seen as "Acts of God" they weren't seen as things that should be placed under the subjection of men. However, today we know better. In truth, Mankind hasn't even been placed above bacteria. Potentially the entire human race can someday be wiped out by a bacterial or viral infection.

So these fables were created based on the superstitions of the times. They have no basis in reality.



I most certainly would not want a relationship with the God that is described by this religion.

This God is clearly inept, confused, and unstable.

If I truly thought that this God was the real creator of this universe this would be my prayer to this God.

~~~~~

Dear God of Abraham,

I am sorry to hear that you are having such problems with the objects of your creation. After having read the supposed history of your relationship with your creation I feel that I can offer you great insight into how to better deal with humanity. I would be more than happy to share my insights with you and offer you consultation pro bono. I expect nothing in return. Just knowing that I have helped both you and humanity to gain a better relationship will be more than enough reward for me.

I'm personally not interested in eternal life. Especially after having read the history of your views on what life should be like. I would like to politely decline any offer to spend eternity with you, and ask that you accept this in a positive spirit with the same degree of politeness in which is it offered.

There's really no need to become upset about it. From what I've read you lose the vast majority of souls that you create anyway so I would think that losing souls is something you have grown accustom to over the millennia.

All I ask is that you un-create me in the most peaceful and pleasant way that is within your capabilities. If you can't manage that, then perhaps an instantaneous lightening strike could suffice. It would be over with before I knew what happened and that would be cool with me.

Having said that, I am willing to stick around for a while to help you with humanity if you would truly like to have a better relationship with them.

I will do this for both you and for humanity, and like I've already said, just knowing that I have helped the situation will be more than enough reward for me.

I don't require eternal life, or any other rewards.

Thank you very much.

Tell Jesus I said Hi. And tell him that I thank him very much for his attempt to better the situation even though it actually served to make things far worse.

Sincerely,
James

No, that's not true at all.

Free will does not automatically equate to an evil-minded person. If it did, then everyone who has free will would automatically be an evil person.

This conclusion that you state about people needing to be robots in order be good people is simply false. This is nothing more than false propaganda spread by Christian religion in an attempt to justify the absurdities in the religion.

We already know from medical knowledge that many of humanities worse criminals were indeed MENTALLY ILL. They often had actual physical defects in the brain.

Moreover much of mental illness cannot even be physically detected.

~~~~~

In fact, in order to hold up your notion that all humans are "PERFECTLY MENTALLY HEALTHY", and the only reason some of them turn to sick demented acts is because of free will, then you'd have to confess that you yourself would actually LIKE to go out and do harm to other people, but only restrain yourself out of FREE WILL.

~~~~~~

This has been a major source of controversy among theologians. Why is it that some people simply have no desire to rape, pillage, murder, steal, etc?

It's not simply a matter of having a free will choice of restraining themselves to not do these things. On the contrary, they have no DESIRE to do them.

Creating people with a predisposition to DESIRE good things, would NOT require than they be robots, puppets or anything like that.

On the contrary they could be as FREE as the WIND!

They could do whatever they want to do and be whatever they want to be. The only difference would be that every human would have a DESIRE to be something GOOD and to only do GOOD things.

That's hardly a ROBOT or PUPPET.

This feeble excuse of religious apologists simply holds no water.

A creator would not need to create Robots or Puppets, in order to give them FREE WILL.

~~~~~

Basically all you're saying is that "FREE WILL" cannot exist unless the ability to do harmful and dastardly things in included in the list of choices.

That's baloney.

Besides, if what you claim were true, then when you got to the Heavenly Paradise your FREE WILL would necessarily need to be taken away if that were the case.

You could not be said to have FREE WILL if you could no longer choose to bad things (according to YOU!). Because if you were like that you'd be nothing more than a robot or puppet (according to YOU)

That simply can't be made to fly.

A person's disposition and desires has absolutely nothing at all to do with having FREE WILL.

A God would need to do is create people with Good Disposition and Good Desires and they could still have total FREE WILL.

I have good disposition and good desires, and I have FREE WILL.

I also have absolutely NO DESIRE to do harmful or cruel things to other people, neither for my enjoyment, nor for my personal gain.

I most certainly would not enjoy harming someone else.

And I have no desire to even do something that would be detrimental to another person for my own gain.

So according to you I'm already a ROBOT.

I have no desire to do evil things.

What are you talking about? We aren't automatically evil. Free will doesn't make us automatically evil nor does it make us automatically saints. Making a creature to do certain things automatically eg., obey God, that would be taking away their free will. Would be making them not think of what they are doing, they would just do the right thing automatically, thus no free will. No option of making their will one with God or not.

I never said anything about creating people who will "obey God".

You're the one who's hung up on the concept of "obedience".

I suggested creating souls who simply already have the same desires as God. Then there would be no need for anyone to have to "obey" anything. Everyone would naturally what to do constructive positive loving things.

~~~~

We can clearly see that this is already the case in humanity. Everyone is not the same. Some people are clearly out to get over on other people. Some even seem to get a thrill out of harming other people. Whilst others are extremely loving and kind NATURALLY.

Moreover, many of the naturally loving kind people are atheists, or of religions and spiritual beliefs far removed from the Abrahamic religions.

~~~~~

It's crystal clear that "obedience" of the Abrahamic God has absolutely nothing at all to do with goodness.

These Abrahamic scriptures themselves contain lies concerning this very thing. There are places in the Bible where it states that no good can come from a "heathen" (a non-believer of the Abrahamic God), yet we know that this is a falsehood.

The authors of these scriptures were caught red-handed making up outright lies about the rest of humanity.

~~~~~~~

In fact, the very idea of a God who is driving by a lust to be "obeyed" is not very attractive anyway. That's a horrible foundation to build a religion upon. Especially since this God is so quick to curse people with painful punishment when they disobey him. And even threaten people with everlasting punishment if they merely don't believe in him.

I don't think the Greek Zeus was even that bad.

Abra...You just described what "being born again" does to a person!!!

That's exactly what happens.....a born again christian WANTS to

follow God in ALL His ways now..it's no more like before,

where he felt he HAD to obey, or else.

A BRAND NEW BORN AGAIN SPIRIT.....a NEW HEART in him now, makes

him WANT to please God.....out of LOVE for God Now.

Well, if they haven't been turned into robots or puppets at that point, then how would it have been any different if they had just been born that way to begin with the first time?

Moreover, if that's the result of being "born again", then I must have been "born again" the first time I was born.

Clearly this can't have anything to do with accepting Jesus as your savior. Otherwise, no one could be "born again" until they've heard of Jesus.

Moreover, this really makes no sense. Because Jesus himself suggested that people need to be "born again", and he didn't preach that within any context of accepting him personally as anyone's lord or savior.

The whole "Born Again" idea actually comes from Buddhism. It's considered to be the "Enlightenment". It's simple when a person realizes that they aren't their ego. Then then suddenly "dissolve" into the oneness of the universe and realize that all is one.

However a person can be "born again" in this sense at any stage in their life. Even as a very young child.

In fact, since the Buddhist actually believe in reincarnation it's quite possible to have come a long way toward enlightenment during past lives. It's also not important for everyone to become enlightened within a single lifetime. In fact, many spiritualists believe that that is highly unlikely for any human to actually achieve such a thing in a single lifetime.

Jesus was definitely teaching the spiritual ideals of Buddhism by teaching people that they had to be "born again". That's precisely where that idea comes from.

There was nothing in the Torah about being "Born Again", that's an idea that clearly came from the Mahayana Buddhism that Jesus was obviously trying to teach as best he could in the face of the current hostile religion of the Torah. The religion of the Torah was ultimately the cause of his demise via the idea that the God of Abraham commanded that heathens should be put to death. That's where that idea come from, and that was what was used by the Pharisees to incite the mob to have Jesus crucified.

Basically Jesus was a Buddhist. The Jews of the time where like the Taliban. And they had Jesus crucified because he blasphemed against their religion.

And now Christianity stands in support of that crucifixion. That's how horribly ironic the whole religion is.

Because they had a choice to give their life over to God or not. They had FREE will to make their will one with God or not. If people were born that way, that would rule out the choosing to or not.

Free will is given to every man, but NO man ever

CHOOSES to

follow God on his own , without GOD FIRST DRAWING Him.



NO MAN ON HIS OWN , CAN SAVE HIMSELF....GOD IS THE ONY ONE WHO

SAVES.


God will begin DRAWING that person unto him...and PREPARING HIS

HEART .....and CONVICTING him of his sins...and it is GOD

ALONE who eventually SAVES that person that He has FIRST DRAWN

unto Him.

Very true, but nevertheless in the end it is that person's choice or not to obey or not and that was my point. That's what free will is. Once God draws that person in, that person right there is going to use their free will to choose to make their will the will of God or not.

But that's a moot point Cowboy.

They would need to be aware of the choice they are making, otherwise it could hardly be a free will choice. In fact, if they weren't even aware that they had made a choice, then in fact, they could not have made a free will choice.

So the only people who can reject God via free will choice, are those who know precisely what they are doing and who have indeed chosen to reject God.

So when it comes to other people's relationship with God it really has nothing at all to do with you. You don't need to explain anything to anyone. Unless, of course, you don't TRUST GOD to know what he's doing.

No one could reject God without being fully aware that they are indeed making that choice. Otherwise, it would not have been their "Free Will" choice since they would not even be aware that they had made it.

You could hardly call that a FREE WILL choice if the person isn't even aware that they had made it.

~~~~~~

I personally reject the biblical portrait of a God. I don't care for the way that God handles things, nor do I care for his attitude about various things. Such as thinking that cursing people with physical pain is a wise means of dealing with his problems. I also don't care for his male-chauvinistic attitude. There's a lot of things I don't like about the God portrayed in the Bible.

Perhaps, if those stories are indeed a true description of our creator then by rejecting these stories I am indeed rejecting this God. They may very well be true. But if the stories are a correct description then it is indeed true that I reject this God.

Possibly, since I am very polite in my rejection of this God, maybe this God has decided to accept my rejection of him with equal politeness and just allow me to perish without pain as I have requested of him.

If that's the case, then I'm happy with my FREE WILL choice to reject his offer of an eternal life of obeying him. I would not be happy obeying such a God, and therefore I truly would not wish to live in that predicament for the rest of eternity.

~~~~~

So if that's the truth of reality, then I have no desire to be "saved", nor would I want to be "saved". On the contrary being granted a peaceful demise would be the greatest gift this God could offer to me.

And wouldn't that truly be the meaning of FREE WILL?

Should I have the FREE WILL to politely decline this God's offer to live in his male-chauvinistic punishment-oriented fascist heaven?

If we truly have FREE WILL, we should be able to politely say no.

Why does it have to come down to a WAR between "good and evil" with all the supposedly "good" people going to heaven, and everyone else being proclaimed to be "evil" and sent into a state of everlasting punishment?

Where's the FREE WILL to be able to simply and politely say, "Hey look I'm just not interested in this stupid male-chauvinistic heaven, and I'm not interested in the stupid hell either. So how about allowing me to have the FREE WILL to just be politely dismissed from this whole frigg'in nightmare?"

~~~~~

This is a very deeply serious problem I have with the Christian religion. It's too divisive. There's no way for GOOD PEOPLE to get out of this nightmare!

There's no provision to POLITELY DECLINE the offer of everlasting obedience to this male-chauvinistic God.

What kind of FREE WILL would that be if we haven't even been given the FREE WILL to politely decline the offer to be the obedient slaves of a God we don't agree with?

If the only alternative to declining this offer of everlasting slavery to this God is to be sent into a state of eternal damnation and suffering, then there is no such thing as FREE WILL at all in this whole religion.

You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. There's no way out for someone who simply isn't interested.

That is NOT free will. That's a hell of a predicament to be in.

If this God is truly "Righteous" there has to be a way to POLITELY decline his offer without him getting all bent out of shape and becoming demonic over it.

There would simply be nothing "righteous" about a God who becomes demonic when someone tries to POLITELY decline his offer.

No...when God DRAWS man( and only God knows when man

is really ready to receive Him),it is that person's choice

to RECEIVE God into his heart first,NOT OBEY GOd yet.

Why?

Because man simply CANNOT OBEY God ON HIS OWN..OR WITH HIS OLD

NATURE, without

FIRST Inviting JESUS in his heart!!!




THEN, AFTER believing and receiving Jesus into his heart , THEN he

GLADLY OBEYS NOW, because he now has a NEW HEART....because he

is now BORN AGAIN...OR...BORN OF GOD NOW!!!



He is REJOINED back WITH GOD now ..thru Christ Jesus..and has

the heart of God beating in Him now...and the Holy Spirit

INDWELLING him now....and has a " heart of stone turned into a heart

of flesh"...or in other words....

he has the a HEART OF GOD NOW...A HEART THAT LOVES LIKE

GOD LOVES NOW.

God KNEW man could not obey on his own...God KNEW man would

fail miserably at keeping the old testament laws, for

imstance....and that is

WHY God SENT us His Son....

GOD DOES NOT FIND US, and DRAW US and PREPARE OUR

HEARTS, and CONVICT US of OUR SINS ...SO THAT WE WILL JUST OBEY

HIM!!!!


NO NO NO!!!!!!!


GOD DOES ALL THAT SO THAT WE WILL RECEIVE HIM!!!!!!!!!!

SO THAT HE CAN SAVE US!!!!!



THEN...WE GLADLY OBEY GOD AFTER WE ARE SAVED!!!

AND GOD ALREADY KNEW THIS !!!!!


GOD ALREADY KNEW THAT WE WOULD NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN FIRST,

IN ORDER TO BE EVEN ABLE TO OBEY HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!


(AND BTW, WE NOT ONLY GLADLY OBEY GOD NOW BECAUSE WE WANT TO,

BUT BECAUSE WE ALSO NOW UNDESTAND THAT IN OUR OBEYING GOD ;

HE IS ABLE TO FULLY UNFOLD HIS PERFECT PLAN FOR OUR LIVES.....

WHICH IS FOR OUR OWN BENEFIT....RESULTING IN A LIFE OF GREAT

JOY AND PEACE..AND GREAT VICTORY IN EVERY AREA OF OUR LIVES !!!


IN OTHER WORDS...WE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THAT " FATHER KNOWS BEST"!!!)



YES.....WE GLADY OBEY GOD AFTER WE ARE SAVED !!!


BUT AGAIN, GOD KNEW WE WOULD HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN FIRST, IN

ORDER TO BE TRULY CAPABLE OF OBEYING HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

IN FACT, THIS WAS ALL IN GOD'S PLAN FOR US....RIGHT FROM THE VERY


BEGINNING!!!


SEE.....AFTER WE ARE BORN AGAIN, WE OBEY GOD NOW WITH A GLAD

HEART...BECAUSE WE NOW HAVE BECOME BRAND NEW CREATURES IN

CHRIST JESUS.....AND ARE FREE FROM THE BURDEN OF SIN NOW,

BECAUSE JESUS ALREADY BORE IT ALLLL ON THE CROSS FOR US!!!


AGAIN....GOD KNEW NONE OF US WITH OUR OLD NATURE COULD TRULY

BE ABLE TO OBEY G0D!!!!!


THAT IS WHY GOD SAID, "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!!!"


WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN, OBEYING GOD IS A JOY NOW!!!!

(OH...WE MAY SLIP UP FROM TIME TO TIME AND BECOME

DISOBEDIENT..BUT QUESS WHAT....

WE CAN'T STAY DISOBEDIENT FOR LONG!!!!

WHY?

SIMPLY BECAUSE WE WANT TO PLEASE GOD OUT OF OUR LOVE FOR GOD NOW.

AGAIN.....NOT NOT NOT BECAUSE WE HAVE TO OBEY....BUT BECAUSE

WE WANT WANT WANT TO OBEY....

WHICH IS THE RESULT OF THE NEW NATURE WITHIN US NOW !!!

WE WANT TO PLEASE GOD...OUT OF OUR GREAT GREAT GREAT LOVE FOR GOD NOW!!!!