Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: For JW Who Believe "Jesus Christ is not God"
CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 11:20 AM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such.

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/21/11 11:28 AM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 11:30 AM
There is nothing in the Old Testament about sacrificing the messiah. Killing is PROHIBITED. Period. The writing of David you cited above says nothing about it. All the stuff from Matthew is of course in the New Testament. There was no such prophesy in the Old Testament or in an Old Covenant. You're just arguing for the sake of it, cause I said No the crucifixion wasn't required, there was no physical sacrifice required to fulfil the covenant. I It was the PROPHECIES from the old Testament that Jesus fulfilled in his life on Earth that completed the covenant. Jesus was crucified for doing this. He wasn't speaking blasphemy against the law as they seen him as doing. He was fulfilling the old covenant and giving us a new to replace what was completed. Cite the prophesies. There is no prophesy which calls for Jesus' martyrdom. Or any martyrdom. In the Old Testament it is just not there. I do not have the space to cite them all. There are 351 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. But I will cite some of them. And in order to save some room, I will merely cite the verse of the prophecy. If you're truly interested in knowing, you can find what the verse says yourself. Gen. 3:15 ------ Galatians 4:4-5, Matthew 1:18 Gen. 5:24 ------ Mark 16:19 Gen. 9:26, 27--- Luke 3:36 Gen. 12:3------- Galatians 3:8, Acts 3:25, 26 Gen. 12:7------- Galatians 3:16 Ex. 12:5-------- Hebrews 9:14; 1Peter 1:19 Ex. 12:13------- Romans 5:8 Ex. 12:46------- John 19:31-36 Ex. 15:2-------- Acts 7:55, 56 Ex. 15:11------- Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27 Lev. 1:2-9------ Ephesians 5:2 Lev. 14:11------ Luke 5:12-14; Acts 6:7 Lev. 17:11------ Matthew 26:28; Mark 10:45

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 11:32 AM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer?

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/21/11 11:46 AM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 11:50 AM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/21/11 12:01 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 12:09 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 12:13 PM Edited by CowboyGH on Wed 09/21/11 12:14 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ.

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/21/11 12:14 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ. are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 12:16 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ. are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? Christianity doesn't do that. If someone claims to be Christian and does this, they are liars. All judgement has been laid in the hands of Jesus. We are not to judge another. So no, it's not in the doctrine of modern day Christianity.

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/21/11 12:24 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ. are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? Christianity doesn't do that. If someone claims to be Christian and does this, they are liars. All judgement has been laid in the hands of Jesus. We are not to judge another. So no, it's not in the doctrine of modern day Christianity. Ok lets see if i get this right. anyone who follows such beliefs and preaches them is not chr-stian and those who go to churches who's doctrine is Hells fire for the unsaved is decieved?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 12:34 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ. are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? Christianity doesn't do that. If someone claims to be Christian and does this, they are liars. All judgement has been laid in the hands of Jesus. We are not to judge another. So no, it's not in the doctrine of modern day Christianity. Ok lets see if i get this right. anyone who follows such beliefs and preaches them is not chr-stian and those who go to churches who's doctrine is Hells fire for the unsaved is decieved? Ok I apologize, I misunderstood you a minute ago. When you said this are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? I thought you were referring to Christians doing the burning and torture of unsaved people. It is not our place to make a judgement on weather one will or will not miss out on the gift of Heaven. We know not their hearts. Jesus is the only way to God, the only path. That is all we know. The only for sure way to be denied Heaven is to deny Jesus. Death is the automatic end of life. Heaven is a gift earned through faith and obedience. Death isn't a punishment put on individual people, death is a punishment put on the human race for our disobedience in the Garden of Eden. It is only through Jesus we may receive the gift of Heaven and Eternal life.

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/21/11 12:41 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ. are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? Christianity doesn't do that. If someone claims to be Christian and does this, they are liars. All judgement has been laid in the hands of Jesus. We are not to judge another. So no, it's not in the doctrine of modern day Christianity. Ok lets see if i get this right. anyone who follows such beliefs and preaches them is not chr-stian and those who go to churches who's doctrine is Hells fire for the unsaved is decieved? Ok I apologize, I misunderstood you a minute ago. When you said this are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? I thought you were referring to Christians doing the burning and torture of unsaved people. It is not our place to make a judgement on weather one will or will not miss out on the gift of Heaven. We know not their hearts. Jesus is the only way to God, the only path. That is all we know. The only for sure way to be denied Heaven is to deny Jesus. Death is the automatic end of life. Heaven is a gift earned through faith and obedience. Death isn't a punishment put on individual people, death is a punishment put on the human race for our disobedience in the Garden of Eden. It is only through Jesus we may receive the gift of Heaven and Eternal life. what i want to know is anyone who preaches and or believes the unsaved will be tortured in hell forever decieved and not a chr-stian?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 12:49 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ. are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? Christianity doesn't do that. If someone claims to be Christian and does this, they are liars. All judgement has been laid in the hands of Jesus. We are not to judge another. So no, it's not in the doctrine of modern day Christianity. Ok lets see if i get this right. anyone who follows such beliefs and preaches them is not chr-stian and those who go to churches who's doctrine is Hells fire for the unsaved is decieved? Ok I apologize, I misunderstood you a minute ago. When you said this are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? I thought you were referring to Christians doing the burning and torture of unsaved people. It is not our place to make a judgement on weather one will or will not miss out on the gift of Heaven. We know not their hearts. Jesus is the only way to God, the only path. That is all we know. The only for sure way to be denied Heaven is to deny Jesus. Death is the automatic end of life. Heaven is a gift earned through faith and obedience. Death isn't a punishment put on individual people, death is a punishment put on the human race for our disobedience in the Garden of Eden. It is only through Jesus we may receive the gift of Heaven and Eternal life. what i want to know is anyone who preaches and or believes the unsaved will be tortured in hell forever decieved and not a chr-stian? Jesus is our savior, our Lord. If one doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior, how is one to expect to be saved?

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/21/11 01:13 PM
Cowboy wrote: One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Jesus being crucified fulfilled the old covenant which required sacrifice for forgiveness. The new covenant doesn't require as such. We are forgiven through Jesus if and when one accept Jesus as lord and saviour. The "New Covenant versus Old Covenant" propaganda to support this bigoted religion cannot work. This would be a God who is divided against himself, and a God who can't make up his mind how he would like for things to be. It's asinine to proclaim that this was all "foretold" in prophecies as if God knew that he had screwed things up from the get go, and would eventually need to clean things up. This kind of excuse for these absurd fables just can't be made to work. The religion cannot be supported using any form of rationality. It's a broken record that just keeps repeating the same age-old claims that simply cannot be justified. The Jews themselves did not buy into this crap from the get go. So in order for these hateful Christians to be right, their God would need to condemn the Jews no different from Adolf Hitler. In fact, this kind of support for these ancient fables actually loans support to Hilter's kind antisemitism. And let's go ahead and extend that to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and basically everyone. According to the Christians the whole world is nothing but heathens. The Christians even renounce other Christian denominations that don't agree with their specific interpretations of the scriptures. Christianity has become nothing more than a competition to see who can support divine hatred in the name of Jesus as "The Christ" with the most authority. Witch Jesus marionette doll will will? The one wielded by Cowboy? Or someone else's version perhaps Hilter's version of the Christ? It's a hateful demeaning segregating religion who's only purpose is to condemn anyone and everyone who doesn't worship a specific version and interpretation of dogma. That's not even what the scriptures themselves claim that Jesus stood for. That's just a gross abuse of the the rumors of Jesus. You'll never sell Jesus to anyone using him as a vehicle to support religious bigotry and hatred in the name of Christianity. If you truly care about Jesus at all you'd be far better off supporting him as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who has become the greatest victim of the religion called "Christianity". Why continue to use Jesus as an excuse to support religious bigotry and hatred toward all who do not cower down to hateful dogma? There's no point to it, and clearly the "fruit" of that sort of endeavor speaks for itself as being grossly evil and not divine in any imaginable sense. How can you continue to support religious bigotry in Jesus' name? There is absolutely no hatred involved at all. Only in your mind Abra. Even from the Christians of this world, I can't justify all the Christians in how they spread the word, for I do not know all the Christians. We don't hate you cause you don't believe, we don't look down on you. The hatred is only in your mind my friend. Where is the most hatred being shown in the following examples? 1. A Christian out to spread the word of God in hopes to show someone the path to Heaven and eternal life. or 2. A person that totally makes absurd comments about this person's belief? A person that doesn't just settle for not believing, but continuously puts that belief down? Christians don't "put down" other beliefs. We do not go around saying things negative about them or their beliefs. So where is the hatred truly Abra? A person's belief doesn't harm another. Me believing in Heaven, Jesus being the only path to Heaven, ect ect brings absolutely no harm to you or anything negative to you. So where is the hatred Abra? Martin Luthers take on the Jews which Hitler Admired..just a small portion of his book The Lies (of the Jews) On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are (1) for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; (2) for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; (3) for their religious writings to be taken away; (4) for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; (5) for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; (6) for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and (7) for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] This was not done by Christians. They may have claimed to be Christian, but don't judge a book by it's cover. These actions were not of the Christian faith. So therefore these actions done were not acting as "Christians" therefore this can not be attributed to the "Christian" faith, for the faith does not teach us to behave as such. Then who is considered the GREAT REFORMER from the Catholic church? Lutherism is alive and well. Is it not the Protestent movement of Martin Luthern that forms anything not Catholic? Please be more specific... Great reformer? This is the founder of modern christianity aside from the catholic church. The Reformation window at St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church in Charleston, South Carolina depicts key events in the Protestant Reformation.The Protestant Reformation began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church, by priests who opposed what they perceived as false doctrines and ecclesiastic malpractice—especially the teaching and the sale of indulgences or the abuses thereof, and simony, the selling and buying of clerical offices—that the reformers saw as evidence of the systemic corruption of the Church's Roman hierarchy, which included the Pope. Both issues were dealt with in an altogether different manner by the Roman Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included John Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who likewise had attempted to reform the Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation began on 31 October 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony, where Martin Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences to the door of the Castle Church, in Wittenberg.[2] The theses debated and criticized the Church and the Pope, but concentrated upon the selling of indulgences and doctrinal policies about purgatory, particular judgment, Catholic devotion to Mary, Jesus’s Mother, the intercession of and devotion to the saints, most of the sacraments, the mandatory clerical celibacy, including monasticism, and the authority of the Pope. In the event, other religious reformers, such as Ulrich Zwingli, soon followed Martin Luther’s example. Moreover, the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to doctrinal differences—first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin—consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches (denominations), such as the Lutheran, the Reformed, the Puritans, and the Presbyterian. Elsewhere, the religious reformation causes, processes, and effects were different; Anglicanism arose in England with the English Reformation, and most Protestant denominations derive from the Germanic denominations. The reformers also accelerated the development of the Counter-Reformation by the Catholic Church. And what does this have to do with weather it was according to the Christian belief these people did such actions? I stated these actions were not justified by the scriptures, therefore were not "Christian" actions, and you posted all this about reformers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another. you are right they are not justified. But the point is the Traditions of modern chr-stianity are rooted in Lutherism.. a Power grabbing Thug that millions have followed and do not even relize that thier beliefs come more from Martin Luthers interpretation of the scriptures than from the writings of the Bible. and the Holocost was an example of this train of thought.. Be Saved or be Damned mentality.Hitler just took it a step futher and burned the Jews in the Ovens himself.. the 3rd Riech.. the burning of the unsaved. the torture of the Damned.. Christian Doctrine 101 The tradition of modern Christianity is rooted in the bible. Not from other belief. If the beliefs do not come directly from the scriptures, it wouldn't be Christian. Weather, it's beliefs, traditions, celebrations, or anything that has anything to do with Christianity. It ALL comes from the scriptures of our lord Jesus Christ. are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? Christianity doesn't do that. If someone claims to be Christian and does this, they are liars. All judgement has been laid in the hands of Jesus. We are not to judge another. So no, it's not in the doctrine of modern day Christianity. Ok lets see if i get this right. anyone who follows such beliefs and preaches them is not chr-stian and those who go to churches who's doctrine is Hells fire for the unsaved is decieved? Ok I apologize, I misunderstood you a minute ago. When you said this are you saying the burning and torture of the unsaved is not a modern day chr-stianity doctrine? I thought you were referring to Christians doing the burning and torture of unsaved people. It is not our place to make a judgement on weather one will or will not miss out on the gift of Heaven. We know not their hearts. Jesus is the only way to God, the only path. That is all we know. The only for sure way to be denied Heaven is to deny Jesus. Death is the automatic end of life. Heaven is a gift earned through faith and obedience. Death isn't a punishment put on individual people, death is a punishment put on the human race for our disobedience in the Garden of Eden. It is only through Jesus we may receive the gift of Heaven and Eternal life. what i want to know is anyone who preaches and or believes the unsaved will be tortured in hell forever decieved and not a chr-stian? Jesus is our savior, our Lord. If one doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior, how is one to expect to be saved? ok I get it you do not want to say whether people who believe the unsaved will burn in hell forever being tortured are decieved. yet it sounds like this is what you believe. well Baptists and most denominations believe the unsaved will be tormented by satan i guess because they did not believe. here is a site that says 9 out of 10 people will be tormented forever. sounds like Satan will get his kingdom of followers from his rival.. Billions of People are Going to Hell! by David J. Stewart Click here if page does not load properly There are an estimated 6 billion people in the world, that’s 6,000,000,000 people! The average life expectancy of a person is estimated to be around 70 years of age. With all the natural disasters, people smoking, the global aids epidemic, terrorism, drug overdoses, liquor related deaths, accidents, murders, war, et cetera. I’m sure the average life expectancy is much lower. Visit a cemetery sometime and you’ll be surprised how many people have died at a much younger age. Nevertheless, let’s suppose that the average person lives to be 70 years old. 6,000,000,000 divided by 70 equals 85,714,285. This means that 85,000,000 people, on average, die every year. If we divide 85,000,000 by 365 days in a year, this means that an average of 232,876 people are dying every day in this world. Are you shocked? You'd never think from listening to the daily news that so many were dying. I’ve never heard anything like this on radio or TV, but it's a fact. Every day in this world, 232,000 people fulfill their appointment with death. Could you imagine reading the front page of a newspaper and seeing something like... “232,000 PEOPLE DEAD!”? It happens every single day my friend! The reason you’ll never see something like this is because it isn’t glamorous. People like to hear about the one person who was shot to death, or the CEO that jumped out of his office window. The news media isn’t interested in how many people are dying around the world. There are natural deaths occurring all over the earth every second, 24 hours a day, but we never hear of them. Deaths resulting from crime, war, disaster, sickness, injury, poison, disease and starvation are seldom heard of from other countries. We only hear of the tip of the ice-berg! You can’t disagree with the math! 6,000,000,000 people will all be dead in 100 years! (ok, maybe 99.9%). How many people live to be 100? NOT MANY! By dividing 70 into 6,000,000,000, we found that 85,000,000 humans will die every year on average (more or less from year to year, but all will be dead in approximately 70 years). We also found that dividing 365 days into 85,000,000 means that an average of 232,000 humans die every day. Now, let’s say that one in ten people are genuine born-again Believers. We are clearly told in Matthew 7:14 that few people ever make it to heaven!, “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT” (Matthew 7:14; Luke 13:23,24). How tragic! How horrible! Honestly, I would be very surprised if more than one out of every hundred people are truly saved and on their way to Heaven! Consider the billion people in China who know not the Lord Jesus Christ! Consider the countless hundreds of millions of Arabs (Islamic Muslims) who worship Allah and the prophet Mohammed. Consider the billion Catholics around the world that worship Mary and are trying to earn their way into Heaven through the keeping of the Seven-Sacraments and good works. On and on, religion and more religion! Countless billions of people are trusting in their religion to save them instead of the Lord Jesus Christ. Surely, nine out of ten people in this wicked world are bound for a Godless, eternal hell. I have no doubts whatsoever that 90% of the people in this world are going to Hell. Why? For one simple reason friend, they do not have the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. Their sins have not been forgiven. We estimated that 232,876 humans die every day on average. 232,876 minus 10 % equals 209,588 people that perish into hell fire and destruction every single day that passes. So roughly, 200,000 HUMANS PLUNGE INTO HELL FIRE EACH AND EVERY DAY! We also see that 23,287 people (10%) make it to Heaven each day on average. The number of people which die every day can’t be denied! You can argue concerning the percentage of people going to Heaven verses Hell; however, Matthew 7:14 clearly teaches that only a "FEW" people will enter into Heaven. "MANY" are going to Hell. As I mentioned, I'd be surprised if more than 1% of the population are born-again believers. If you don't believe the Bible, then you had better hope to God that your right; If you believe the Bible "just enough" to obey it and call upon the saving name of Jesus Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of sins--you will be safe! We all must die and it’s guaranteed that were not going to escape death! It’s just a matter OF TIME! Prepare to meet thy God! Salvation is not found in religion, but in a person—Jesus Christ! Let's think a bit further on this shall we... If 232,876 people die every day (on average), then how many people die per second? Well, 232,876 divided by 24 hours = 9,703 people die every hour. 9,703 divided by 60 minutes = 161 people die every minute. 161 divided by 60 seconds = 2.6 (we'll say 2) people die every second. Can you imagine this? 2 people die in this world every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year! It's adds up to 85,000,000 people a year. Let's assume that I'm right concerning the percentages. Let's just assume that only 1% of the population is truly born-again. This means that 2,328 people enter into Heaven each and every day. And sadly, 230,548 people plunge into hellfire each and every day. What percentage of people do you believe are truly saved? If you say "ALL," then you are obviously NOT a believer. 1st John 2:22 teaches that anyone who denies Jesus Christ is a LIAR. That means all Islamic Muslims are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims deny that Jesus ever died on a cross. There are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims in the world. All followers of Judaism are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Messiah. That's what the Bible teaches in 1st John 2:22. It's Jesus or Hell. The question is: Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word? I do. By the way, the King James Bible is the only reliable English Bible that hasn't been corrupted by Satan. There are another estimated 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world, all who believe that Mary is able to give salvation, that the Seven-Sacraments are essential to salvation, that the pope is God upon the earth, that the priest has power to forgive sins and that good works can get them into Heaven. The Bible teaches that we are saved solely by Christ's righteousness, which is through faith in His precious literal, physical, blood that washes our sins away (1st Peter 1:18-19; Hebrews 9:12,24; Revelation 1:5; Romans 3:25). I witnessed to a Catholic man once who said he didn't believe Jesus was almighty God. He's not a born-again believer. How sad! Most of the world has been deceived by false religion. Jesus is almighty God (John 1:1,14; John 10:33; John 14:1-3; 1st Timothy 3:16; Colossians 2:9; Revelation 1:8). Yes friend, billions of people are going to Hell. Each and every HOUR, roughly 9,500 people die. Thousands of those people go straight to Hell. If you've never received Jesus as you personal Savior, please do so now. John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Being saved is very easy. Salvation happens when a person acknowledges their guilt of sin, coming to God on the basis of being a hell-deserving sinner; believing on Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, to forgive their sins. Acts 10:43, “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” Please understand—all one's good deeds, keeping of the Ten Commandments, water baptism, church membership, holy communion, penance, confirmation and praying are A ROAD TO HELL if you place any trust in them to save you. Salvation is solely by Christ's righteousness; and not by any self-righteousness of our own. Titus 3:5, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” God DIDN'T give us the Ten Commandments to earn our way to Heaven; but rather, to show us our sinful condition and need for a Savior. Galatians 3:24, “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” Amen! Don't rely upon anything or anyone other than the Son of God, Jesus, to forgive your sins. Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Whosoever means YOU!!! “Call” means “to appeal unto” i.e., “to go to Jesus to be saved.” If you come to the Savior, He will not turn you away (John 6:37). Isaiah 1:18 teaches that God will forgive the vilest sinner who comes through the Son of God. All that God the Father asks is that we come to Him through His dear Son for forgiveness (John 14:6). Salvation is not a prayer! Salvation is not a decision. Salvation is not an experience. Salvation is a supernatural act of God in response to one's faith in Jesus Christ. Eternal life is freely given (Romans 5:15), freely offered (Romans 10:13), and freely received (Revelation 22:15). To be saved, you simply stop trying to work your way to Heaven; and you rest in the finished work of Christ. That's what the Sabbath Day pictured in the Old Testament. Jesus is our Sabbath, in Whom we rest for salvation. The only way to Heaven is to come as a guilty sinner and cast one's self at the feet of Jesus for forgiveness. Romans 4:5-6, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.” Did you read that? ... HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS!!! You don't need to stop living in sin to be saved. Only a hypocrite would teach such a thing. Who can stop sinning? How much sin do you have to give up to be saved? Can anyone give up all their sins... sinful bad habits included? Even Jesus asked in John chapter 8, who is without sin among you? Salvation is not about us giving up our sins to be saved. Salvation is about us admitting that we are guilty, hell-deserving, sinners and therefore need a Savior to redeem us. Jesus has the nail-scarred hands and feet. Jesus is that Savior. Then, when we are saved, God will work in our heart to make the necessary changes. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance; and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith. Salvation is solely by Christ's righteousness (Romans 10:3-4; 2nd Corinthians 5:21; Matthew 6:33). THE REALITY OF HELL VIDEO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mortality rate \| Signal of Need \| How to Know Christ http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions_of_people_going_to_hell.htm

Peter_Pan69 Joined Sun 08/23/09 Posts: 2781	Wed 09/21/11 01:39 PM
what i want to know is anyone who preaches and or believes the unsaved will be tortured in hell forever decieved and not a chr-stian? I would have to say "yes"... Funny thing is, even the self-proclaimed "non-Christians" preach the same doctrines of men or at least believe they were the intended messages....

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Wed 09/21/11 06:13 PM
Cowboy wrote: Jesus is our savior, our Lord. If one doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior, how is one to expect to be saved? Saved from what? Before you would need to accept Jesus as your "savior" you would first need to proclaim God to be your enemy. Otherwise you would have no reason to be "saved" in the first place. It makes no sense to talk about Jesus being your "savior" from the wrath of God unless you first consider yourself to be an enemy of God. So the whole thing is rather senseless for those of us who have never proclaimed to be the enemy of any God in the first place. The whole scam of proselytizing Jesus as "savior" requires that a person first accept that they are the enemy of God. A religion can't get any stupider IMHO.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 09/21/11 06:24 PM
Cowboy wrote: Jesus is our savior, our Lord. If one doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior, how is one to expect to be saved? Saved from what? Before you would need to accept Jesus as your "savior" you would first need to proclaim God to be your enemy. Otherwise you would have no reason to be "saved" in the first place. It makes no sense to talk about Jesus being your "savior" from the wrath of God unless you first consider yourself to be an enemy of God. So the whole thing is rather senseless for those of us who have never proclaimed to be the enemy of any God in the first place. The whole scam of proselytizing Jesus as "savior" requires that a person first accept that they are the enemy of God. A religion can't get any stupider IMHO. Saved from death. There are two different places one can end up when one passes away on Earth. If one doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior, they have automatically taken the other rout, for Jesus is the only path, the only way, the only rout to Heaven. So on those terms if they choose to take the other rout, they will end up in it's final destination in the middle of no where or elsewhere from Heaven since Jesus is the only rout to Heaven. The whole scam of proselytizing Jesus as "savior" requires that a person first accept that they are the enemy of God. Not necessarily. Since our disobedience in the Garden we have been punished with "death" automatically from birth. It's not a punishment on a singular person for the action that person may or may not have taken in their life. Death is automatically a punishment placed on the Human race. That is where the gift of eternal life from Jesus comes into play. Heaven/eternal life is a GIFT, it is earned through our faith and obedience.

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Wed 09/21/11 08:00 PM
Cowboy wrote: Jesus is our savior, our Lord. If one doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior, how is one to expect to be saved? Saved from what? Before you would need to accept Jesus as your "savior" you would first need to proclaim God to be your enemy. Otherwise you would have no reason to be "saved" in the first place. It makes no sense to talk about Jesus being your "savior" from the wrath of God unless you first consider yourself to be an enemy of God. So the whole thing is rather senseless for those of us who have never proclaimed to be the enemy of any God in the first place. The whole scam of proselytizing Jesus as "savior" requires that a person first accept that they are the enemy of God. A religion can't get any stupider IMHO. Saved from death. There are two different places one can end up when one passes away on Earth. If one doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior, they have automatically taken the other rout, for Jesus is the only path, the only way, the only rout to Heaven. So on those terms if they choose to take the other rout, they will end up in it's final destination in the middle of no where or elsewhere from Heaven since Jesus is the only rout to Heaven. The whole scam of proselytizing Jesus as "savior" requires that a person first accept that they are the enemy of God. Not necessarily. Since our disobedience in the Garden we have been punished with "death" automatically from birth. It's not a punishment on a singular person for the action that person may or may not have taken in their life. Death is automatically a punishment placed on the Human race. That is where the gift of eternal life from Jesus comes into play. Heaven/eternal life is a GIFT, it is earned through our faith and obedience. ok "not neccessarily.. ok if Eternal life is a gift aren't then those who refuse and go to hell getting a gift of eternal life also?