Yes it is. Again, it's not bought or anything of that nature. A "gift" alone is earned. It is earned through love. What is a gift? A gift is something one gives another to show their appreciation. Why would one appreciate that other? Because the two have a good relationship, have had loving moments, they care for one another. That is how it is "earned". Again, one can not just believe in Jesus and earn the gift of Heaven. Jesus told us that himself. Faith without works is dead.



That's the last thing I'm gonna quote from this particular post of yours, cause they will all be answered with the same thing. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. One can not just believe on Jesus and be saved. The gift Jesus gave us wasn't only on the cross. The gift was the knowledge he gave to us, which in the end got him crucified. Once again, faith without works is dead.

You say we are saved by our faith alone. That exact question is asked in verse 14 and answered in 15-16.

James 2:14-16

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

Believe as you wish then.....

I can do no more to help you see that works

are NOT required for salvation.

Only God can make His Word clear to you.

Take care now, Cowboy.

Then please explain why it goes into detail about faith without works is dead. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something in these verses. Please explain how someone could believe in Jesus, but do anything and everything they wished, including but not limited to, stealing, adultery, killing, ect. But all this time, they have faith Jesus is the true messiah and the only way to Heaven.

Ok Cowboy.......listen with your heart now.....

when one TRULY BELIEVES and RECEIVES JESUS INTO ONE'S HEART

BY FAITH....AND MEANS IT.....

quess what Cowboy...Jesus will come in and dwell in that

person...making His abode in that person's heart....

God's Holy Spirit now INDWELLS that believer.....making that

person a brand new creation in Christ !!!!!


old things are passed away, behold, all things are now become

new in that believer's life now......


meaning...that person cannot and will not live according to his

old ways anymore.


NOW.... IF a person SAYS he is saved, but is still

living like the

world, and not bothered by it one bit, then that peron is

NOT saved....and his faith is

DEAD...caue he aint really saved at all....and that is why no

works follow in

that person's life either...meaning...no true salvation ever

took place in that person's life!!!


Now...I am not talking about babes in Christ,who still at

first will be CARNAL ,but will at least run to Abba

Father ,crying when

they poo poo in their spiritual diapers and mess up ..... but

who in time, WILL hopefully grow up!!!


No, I am talking about so called "christians" who are NEVER

bothered in their heart , about continuing to walk in the

world...cause nothing ever happened in their lives in the first

place...hence dead

faith and no works...

again, one can have head knowledge and THINK cause they

mouthed some words, that they are now Saved...but never

meant it in their heart.


(Btw, it is not our place to judge who is saved and who is

not saved....some beleivers grow at different rates from

others..our place is just to love and pray for all...and let God

deal with other people's hearts...Amen?)



So...point being..... a truly saved person WANTS to please

God now...because he LOVES God now.....


and if he messes up, he will be grieved in his spirit..and

will run to God to get right if he falls.....


See now?

One who is saved wants to FOLLOw God's ways,

out of LOVE for God...

he wants to PLEASE God out of LOVE for God now....and works

WILL follow BECAUSE of a changed heart now........not because

he is just trying to earn his way to God ....

but because he LOVES God ...


which is the evidence of his now having become a new

creation in Christ.


Salvation makes a person LOVE God.....and makes a person WANT to

please God..and obey God....

again, because that person IS NOW a brand

new creation in Christ Jesus.

We are JUDGED come judgement time. Obviously believing in Jesus alone doesn't change the person, for even the devils believe. The new creation you speak of comes from their own decision, not just from accepting Jesus. It comes from accepting Jesus and CHOOSING to change and obey their new found Lord and Savior. When they choose to obey is where the works comes into play.

Jesus doesn't alter us, this in reference to the "new creature" scripture. That is the choice of the person in mention. They have chosen to change and obey again their new found Lord and Savoir. They chose to do it, eg. it's done by their works through the power of Jesus Christ.

Found a good verse that explains what I'm trying to say. This is through the will of the person in mention. They are to do it with their own free will. We are to obey the law and do good "works". Again this comes from the own person's choice to behave as such.

Romans 12:2

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

God ALONE makes us a new creation in Christ..to

think we could make ourselves into new creations in Chrst,and

change our old nature into a new nature,on our own doing , is

sheer foolishness.



But please know......it is Our spirit man ONLY that is born

again....NOT our mind and NOT our flesh.




That is why God's Word says , we are to RENEW OR MINDS

daily with the Word of God......


again.....that part is OUR job to


do as new born again believers in Christ (yes our job).....


and is not God's job to do.


God's does the SAVING part..that is of His doing only...not

ours..ours is to just come to Him by Faith in God, believing...

He does the rest.


Again....

our job AFTER WE ARE NOW SAVED,is to renew our mind daily

with the Word of God,

and study to show ourselves approved, a workman not needing to be

ashamed.....

yes..we are to work OUT our salvation,AFTER we are

already saved...but please know, we are talking here about

working out our salvation AFTER we are saved ,and NOT before

we are saved.....because we can NEVER EARN our salvation, no

matter how hard we try to do good works in ordee to try and be saved!!

No.....

working out our salvation Comes AFTER we have ALREADY been

Saved.


Also....after we are saved.....

We are also to put our bodies under subjection to the Holy

Spirit,and present our bodies a living sacrifice unto God...

that is our part to do also...not God's job....

but again..

this all follows AFTER salvation, and is NOT in any way,

meant to EARN our salvation.


Again, when we are born again, we WANT to OBEY God now....because

we now LOVE God....and not because we HAVE to obey...but simply

because ,

again,


we WANT to OBEY GOD...out of our Great LOVE FOR GOD NOW!!!!

...............Why is Faith without Works Dead?...............






Question: "Why is faith without works dead?"

Answer: In his epistle, James makes the statement “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Faith without works is dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many Scriptures that make it very clear that true saving faith will result in a transformed life which is demonstrated by the “works” we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.

James 2:14-26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other Scriptures. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God, but instead he is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ with a life that shows no works has a false or dead faith and is not saved. James is clearly making a contrast between two different types of faith—truth faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

Many profess to be Christians, but their lives and their priorities indicate otherwise. Jesus put it this way; “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matthew 7:16-23).

Notice that the message of Jesus is the same as the message of James. Obedience to God is the mark of true saving faith. James uses the example of Abraham and Rahab as the type of works that demonstrate salvation, and both of those examples are of people who obeyed God in faith. Saying we believe in Jesus does not save us, nor does religious service. What saves us is a life of faith demonstrated by ongoing obedience to God.

Misunderstanding the relationship of faith and works comes from a misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches about salvation. There are really two errors in regards to the relationship between works and faith. The first error is the gospel of “easy believism.” This error is the belief that one can “make a decision for Christ” or “pray a prayer of salvation,” and based upon that profession of faith salvation occurs. This is also called “decisional regeneration” and is dangerous and deceptive. Often those who advocate this view of salvation say that once a person has prayed the sinners’ prayer or made a profession of faith they are saved regardless of how they live afterwards. This leads to the creation of a new type of person called the “carnal Christian” in order to excuse the ungodly lifestyles of many who have made a one-time profession of faith in Christ. Yet as we can see in James and other verses of Scripture, this type of profession of faith that does not result in a life of obedience to Christ is in reality a dead faith that does not save.

The other error in regards to the relationship between works and faith is to make works part of what justifies us before God. The mixture of works and faith together creates a works-based system of righteousness which is totally contrary to what Scripture teaches. There is no conflict between Romans 4:5, “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” and what James wrote when he said “faith without works is dead.” Works come from true faith and a heart that has been justified by God by faith alone. The works that follow salvation do not make us righteous before God; they simply flow from a heart that has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit as naturally as water flows downhill.

Understanding the relationship between faith and works is important because it helps us avoid the errors mentioned above. Saying we believe in Christ does not save us, nor does praying a prayer of salvation or making a “decision” for Christ. Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby unregenerate sinners have the “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5) poured out on them, thereby causing them to be born again (John 3:16). When this happens God gives them new hearts and puts a new spirit within them (Ezekiel 36:26). God removes their sin-hardened hearts of stone and replaces them with hearts of flesh and fills them with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit which causes them to walk in obedience to His statues and judgments (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Faith without works is dead because it reveals a heart that has not been transformed by God. When we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and experienced the “washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit,” our lives will demonstrate that by the way we live and our works of obedience to God. It will be evident by the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) in our lives and a desire to obey God and live a life that glorifies Him. Christians belong to Christ and as His sheep they hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:26-30).

True saving faith is always manifested by good works and a life that desires to live in obedience to God. Ephesians 2:8-10 makes it very clear that works do not save us but that we are saved “for good works which God prepared beforehand that we would walk in them.” When we are truly born again you will have hearts that are transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit where God’s law is written so that we might walk in His statutes and judgments. As Paul wrote in Galatians 5:17, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

Faith without works is dead because it comes from a heart that has not been regenerated by God. It is an empty profession of faith from someone to whom Christ will say, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.”

............Question: "What is a carnal Christian?"............


Answer: Can a true Christian be carnal? In answering this question, let’s first define the term “carnal.” The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” This descriptive word is seen in the context of Christians in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. In this passage, the apostle Paul is addressing the readers as “brethren,” a term he uses almost exclusively to refer to other Christians; he then goes on to describe them as “carnal.” Therefore, we can conclude that Christians can be carnal. The Bible is absolutely clear that no one is sinless (1 John 1:8). Every time we sin, we are acting carnally.

The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a TRUE Christian will NOT REMAIN carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). Such a concept is completely unbiblical. James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Ephesians 2:8-10 declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.

Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away (see John 10:28; Romans 8:37-39; 1 John 5:13). Even in 1 Corinthians 3:15, the carnal Christian is assured of salvation: “If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).

Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.

............Question: "What does it mean that God draws us to salvation?"............



Answer: The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo which means to drag (literally or figuratively). Clearly this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.



Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10, we see Peter drawing his sword and in Acts 16:19, helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come although we have no part in the drawing.



Why does God need to draw us to salvation? Simply put, if He didn’t, we would never come. Jesus explains that no man can come unless the Father draws him (John 6:65). The natural man has no ability to come to God, nor does he even have the desire to come. Because his heart is hard and his mind is darkened, the unregenerate person not only doesn’t desire God, but is actually an enemy of God (Romans 5:10). When Jesus says that no man can come without God’s drawing him, He is making a statement about the total depravity of the sinner and the universality of that condition. So darkened is the unsaved person that he doesn’t even realize it: “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). Therefore, it is only by the drawing of God through His mercy and grace that we are saved. In the conversion of the sinner, God enlightens the mind (Ephesians 1:18), He inclines the will toward Himself, and He influences the soul, without which influence, the soul remains darkened and rebellious against God. All of this is involved in the drawing process.



There is a sense in which God draws all men. This is known as the “general call” and is distinguished from the “effectual call” of God’s elect. Passages such as Psalm 19:1-4 and Romans 1:20 attest to the fact that God’s eternal power and divine nature are “clearly seen” and “understood” from what has been made, and that there is no excuse for denying these facts. But men still do deny God and those who acknowledge His existence still do not come to a saving knowledge of Him outside of His drawing them. Only those who have been drawn through special revelation—by the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God—will come to Christ.



There are tangible ways in which those who are being drawn to salvation experience that drawing. First, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sinful state and our need for a Savior (John 16:8). Second, He awakens in us a previously unknown interest in spiritual things and creates a desire for them that was never there before. Suddenly our ears are open, our hearts are inclined toward Him, and His Word begins to hold a fascination for us that is new and exciting. Our spirits begin to discern spiritual truth that never made sense to us before because we were in a natural state: “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14). Finally, we begin to discern new desires which He has created within us. He places within us a new heart that inclines toward Him, a heart that desires to know Him, to obey Him and to walk in the “newness of life” (Romans 6:4) which He has promised.

Not necassarily. If God alone did it, he would do that to all the people that ever existed. Takes you to make the first steps of the process. God will help and give you knowledge of how to do this.



Yes very true. Except we can not be saved if we don't put the first step forward into it.

It's utterly absurd to believe that an "all-wise" and "all-powerful" God had no choice but to be nailed to a pole in order to communicate with his creation.

That's just plain utterly stupid and there is no excuse for it.

You ask, "How else was he going to give us the message?"

I can offer a gazillion better ways to communicate with the objects of your creation.

In fact, allowing yourself to be nailed to a pole by your creation would be an absolute sign of weakness and stupidity on your part if you are the creator.

There is no excuse for such an ignorant approach to communication. Especially in terms of Christianity where they places this utterly foolish act to be the CENTRAL FOCAL POINT of salvation. That's even makes it stupider yet.




You're continuing to beat the dead horse Cowboy.

I've already told you that there are infinitely many ways that a God could communicate with his creation without having himself nailed to a pole.

Also, you can't pretend that this was the doing of men, and then turn around and demand that accepting this act of crucifixion on your behavior to pay for your sins is paramount to being "Saved".

That is stupidity beyond stupidity Cowboy.

I've already explain this in detail.

In order for the crucifixion to be "God's sacrificial lamb" to pay for the sin of mankind then it would have had to have been God's IDEA and PLAN!

But that is sick twice over. It's sick in an of itself that a supposedly divine God would even need to have a bloody crucifixion associated with, and required for his love and forgiveness.

And it's also sick in the sense that if this was God's IDEA and God's PLAN, then clearly the people who nailed Jesus to the pole would have been doing GOD's WILL!

The whole thing is utterly absurd and, quite frankly it's even disturbing that so many people would think that a divine supreme being would be this mentally ill.

A God who deals in crucifixions as a means of obtaining his love and forgiveness?

That is the epitome of an oxymoron, IMHO.

Jesus as a mortal man who tried to "save" a disturbed culture from their sick religion makes far more sense.

But the idea of an all-wise supreme being actually plotting all this morbid stuff as a means of obtaining his "love and mercy" is nonsense.



I do come to discuss religion. But that includes discussing the reasons why various ancient religions should be rejected as being clearly ungodly.

What you would like to see is censorship where only people who support a particular religion should be allowed to voice their views on it. This is precisely how the religion has been kept alive for so many centuries. Anyone who spoke out against it was banned from any churches, or any other public places were they could be heard.

We've gone through this a million times before. This religion accuses everyone of being a 'sinner' who is in dire need of "salvation" from a mean nasty God who will condemn them into eternal punishment if they fail to cower down to this religion and support all of it's ignorance and religious bigotries.

That's what the problem is Cowboy.

It's a hateful religion based on a mean nasty jealous God who will supposedly condemn everyone who doesn't buy into it as being the ultimate "authority" of God.

That's hogwash. That ignorance needs to be addressed.

~~~~~~

I have offered quite positive and healthy explanations that easily explain all of this nonsense away.

It's really quite simple:

1. The Old Testament is nothing more than man-made fables of a male-chauvinistic ignorant male Godhead not all that much different from the Greek Zeus. He's even appeased by, and requires bloody sacrificial to appease him.

2. Jesus was most likely a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. There is nothing negative about that. That is a very respectable and positive thing to be. Even the New Testament has Jesus renouncing the ignorance of the Old Testament and preaching against those sick demented teaching. I have no doubt that he probably was brutally crucified for his views and teachings. But this had nothing to do with any plan from any God to offer anyone salvation.

3. The New Testament was put together in an effort to use the rumors of Jesus to create a new imagine of "God" as "The Christ" who must be accepted if salvation is to be had.

Even the Jews didn't fall for that one!

Neither did the Muslims.

So there are a lot of people who actually believe in the Old Testament but even they don't buy into the New Testament scam.

So that's a commonly accepted way to go right there.

~~~~

I just take it a step further and renounce the whole shebang including the Old Testament.

And as a human being I have every right to voice this view. After all, these fables are proclaiming that I am at odds with this creator. A male-chauvinistic creator, that is depicted (IMHO) as being a really lame idiot who can never even solve a problem. All his solutions were violent and disgusting, and evidently even according to the fables themselves they never even worked very well at all.

It's a lame picture of a lame God.

Hey, that's my honest sincere view of a religion that keeps trying to make out like as if there is something wrong with ME, for not liking this insane idiotic male-chauvinistic pig of a "God".

I get sick of being treated as though I am refusing or rejecting all that is "Good and Loving" just because I refuse to believe that our creator is as sick as these ancient Hebrews claim.

It's a stupid story.

If there is a creator, let's all PRAY that are creator had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrews!

Rather than being God's "Chosen People" the Jews were probably rejected by God a very long time ago and that's why they wrote fables about God trying to depict him to be the ignorant fool.

Now that actually makes some sense.

~~~~~

In the meantime Cowboy, I have absolutely no respect for anyone who uses this religion to look down their nose at me suggesting that because I don't buy into this utter foolishness I am somehow out of touch with God whilst they are so close to God they have actually been authorized by God to speak for God.



Get real!

This religion actually attracts egotists who love to pretend that they are backed by God whilst everyone else is at odds with God.

The jealous God religions were failed from the get go.

Jealousy can never be the basis for divinity.

It's utterly absurd that I asked for another way God could have given us the message and you refuse to give it. Again, it's not the fact that Jesus WAS crucified that was the sacrifice. Jesus didn't live his life for him, he lived it for us. Starting at a very young age. He sacrificed his entire life to spread the gospel.



Again, yes you've said there were infinite ways, but you have yet to give even one. And again, his crucifiction wasn't the communication. Him spending his entire life on Earth starting at a very early age spreading the gospel was the sacrifice. Which in the end got him crucified.



Oh but, you don't just disagree with it. You try to totally degrade it and anyone who follows it. You don't "discuss", cause in a discussion there are times to listen and times to speak. All you do is speak and ignore every and all bit of responses that are opposite to what you're saying.

I know nothing about your relationship with God, if there is one, not one, if it's good, bad, strong, or weak. Or do I even rightly care. That is between you and God, not you God and a third party. I'm here merely to discuss the belief itself. Not to change anyone's views, not to be in any "competition" between the different beliefs. So I don't know what you're speaking about in the quoted comment.

Look who's talking about speaking and not listening.

I've offered you alternative explanations for the entire biblical cannon. But you refuse to listen. Instead you keep PREACHING your views.

"Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God!"

"You must accept him as your lord and savior!"

"There is no other way to appease God!"

I'm quite familiar with the brainwashing scheme of this ancient religion Cowboy.

I'm just telling you that I don't buy into this nonsense. And I try to explain why I don't buy into it. You just become upset because my objections to this ancient religion make perfect sense.

1. I don't believe that I'm at odds with any Zeus-like angry God.
2. I don't believe in Gods that are appeased by blood sacrifices.
3. I don't believe in male-chauvinistic Gods.
4. I don't believe in Gods that would curse women with painful childbirth.
4. I don't believe that Jesus was a virgin-born demigod.
5. I don't believe in a God who would have his own son nailed to a pole.


These are all utterly absurd notions, IMHO.

Jesus as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva makes far more sense to me. A mortal man who rejected the foolishness taught in the Torah, and who was unfortunately brutally crucified for his views.

The New Testament is nothing more than superstitious rumors, or worse yet, calculated religious propaganda created to try to win followers using the rumors of a dead Jesus in an attempt to make him out to have been "The Christ". (a claim that doesn't fit in any case). Even the Jews themselves didn't fall for that one.

~~~~~~

All of this is a perfectly legitimate conclusion and explanation to explain away religious superstitious fables that would otherwise require that our creator is sicker than many mere mortal humans.

~~~~~

Yes, I reject the religion because in order for it to be true, the God it depicts would need to be mentally ill.

That's more than sufficient grounds for rejecting this religion.

You're just upset because you know I'm right. No "all-wise" God could behave this crudely. The stories simply don't match up with the character traits that this God is supposed to have.

This is precisely why I reject these stories.

1. People aren't at odds with God naturally, they choose to be. They are not automatically born with odds against God. Again, they choose to be with their/our disobedience to him.

2. How else was they to show their sincerity in their asking for forgiveness? Actions speak louder then words. People can say words all day long. So what are some alternatives you had in mind someone could show their sincerity of their remorse in what they had done?

3. You know that saying, to many chiefs and not enough Indians? That's what would have been in the world if God would not have appointed one person in the family head of the house hold. This doesn't make men greater, doesn't make us/them more important. Doesn't even put them in charge, cause they still are under the law as well. A man could not and can not just order the woman around just because they wanted to.

4. Why not? Again, what was an alternative punishment God could have put on women for their disobedience in the Garden? An alternative punishment that would be just as severe keep in mind.

5. That's your own view. You have absolutely no way to validate if this is true or not. You've chosen to believe this, there's nothing anyone can do to change this view, nor is anyone attempting to. Glad to hear you're comfortable with your decision. Hope it pays out in the end for you my friend.

6. God didn't have Jesus put on that cross. We did, we as the human race put him on that cross. Not God. Jesus was here to spread the message, and in response and show of our appreciation we crucified him. Go figure.

Well I have never chosen to be at odds with God. Therefore, for me personally this religion makes no sense.

It can only make sense to people who have indeed chosen to be at odds with God. I'm sorry to hear that you feel that you are such a person. And evidently you must feel that way, otherwise how could you believe in a religion that requires that you have indeed made that choice?



This is utterly absurd Cowboy.

The idea is that this God is supposed omniscient and know what is in the hearts of men. There is nothing you can hide from God.

Therefore, there would be absolutely no reason for anyone to prove or demonstrate their sincerity to this God. This God would automatically know whether a person is sincere at heart.

So you're excuse for this religion doesn't wash. It flies in the face of what this God is supposed to be capable of.



I don't buy that mentality Cowboy. In fact, IMHO, that very mentality right there is ignorant.

There is no need to have "chiefs". If a relationship is based on true love and devotion to one another the couple who truly love each other should be able to arrive at a mutual consensus in everything they do. Even if it's a matter of give-and-take.

The excuse that people aren't capable of this is nothing but pure ignorance that I personally do not support.

So again this lame excuse for this religion doesn't wash.



Punishment is STUPID to begin with Cowboy. That is already a totally unwise and ignorant way to deal with things.

The very idea that an all-wise God would stoop to such ignorant and stupid methods of trying to "teach" people lessons via punishments is already an asinine idea.

Moreover, as you can clearly see from the history of humanity and what this religion claims that God wants and expects from people this sort of physical painful punishment DIDN'T WORK anyway!

So there you have it. Proof positive. Not only is it a stupid way to deal with things, but it's clearly ineffective anyway according to these fables.

Therefore, it cannot possibly have been the tactics of any supposedly all-wise God.



I'm not worried about any "payoff" in the end Cowboy. You seem to be the one who is totally obsessed with winning prizes from some God.

This kind of trivial mentality does not appeal to me. Either there exits a truly righteous and wise God, or there doesn't. I'm certainly not going to worry about being let down or punished by some ignorant demon just because I refused to support an ignorant male-chauvinistic fable of an angry egotistical Godhead who would be as evil as you require.





No Cowboy, the human race did not have Jesus crucified on any cross. That's totally false. The stories themselves do not even support that. Pilot himself washed his hands of the whole affair showing his disapproval of what the Pharisees wanted to do with Jesus.

Moreover, it makes no sense to try to pin the crucifixion on men whilst simultaneously holding this event up as the only means by which to receive the grace and mercy of a creator.

Again this is just you wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Either Jesus was the "sacrificial lamb of God" sent to pay the price for the "sins" of men, or he wasn't.

You can't have men deciding to do this without God's consent.

A God would need to go along with this. And that's extremely problematic right there!

You can't have a God sending his son as a messenger to mankind with a new covenant and not intending to have him crucified to pay for the sins of men, only to have mankind crucifying this messenger without God's will and plan.

That cannot be made to work, IMHO.

Then you would have mankind making God jump through hoops.

Moreover, you could hardly expect a God to then use this crucifixion of his son as the focal point of his LOVE and GRACE, just because a handful of jerks crucified him (certainly not all of humanity as you have falsely claimed). Even the stories do not support that nonsense.

~~~~~

You would have this God cowering down to the actions of a few bad men, and forcing this God to create his entire religious requirements for salvation based on a few bad apples.

That can never be made to work.

The only way that this religion could be made to work is if your claim that the entire human race would have indeed crucified Jesus.

But that would mean that every single living human being would have to have been of the mindset to do such dastardly things. Even Pilot washed his hands of this affair and did not approve of it, so you've already got a problem right there!

This is a huge problem with this religion Cowboy. In order for it to work, every single human being would indeed need to be as disgusting as those who would nail people to poles or burn people at stakes.

But we know for a fact that all humans aren't like this. In fact, we can be very thankful that the vast majority of humans are not like this.

So this religion cannot be made to work. Everyone would need to be a hateful evil person in order for this religion to even begin to work.

And that itself would be extremely problematic right there. Because that would imply that our creator can't even create half-way decent people. All he can create are evil hateful people.

What kind of a creator would that even be?

You've basically got a religion that demands that every single human being is a disgustingly evil person, and that our creator can't even create a good soul.

That doesn't say much for the creator.

~~~~~~

This religion needs far too many excuses for this God.

No matter what you try to do with it, it always ends up being the result of a truly inept creator.

Humans would have never had a chance if they had been created by such an inept creator.

The creator has to take some responsibility for the souls he creates. Especially if they ALL end up being bad, which is what your version of this religion requires.

That doesn't say much for the creator.

Cowboy wrote:




Incorrect, Cowboy....God SENT His Son.....


king james

For God so loved the world, that he GAVE his only begotten Son, that

whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is GIVEN, and the government

will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful

Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.





Romans 5:8

But God DEMONSTRATES his own LOVE for us in this: While we were

still sinners, Christ DIED for us.


Romans 8:32

He who did NOT SPARE his own Son, but GAVE HIM UP FOR US ALL--how

will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?



Ephesians 2:4

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,


2 Thessalonians 2:16

May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us

and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,



Hebrews 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now

crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by

the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.


1 John 3:1

How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should

be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the

world does not know us is that it did not know him.



1 John 4:9

This is how God showed his love among us: He SENT his one and only

Son into the world that we might live through him.


1 John 4:10

This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and SENT

his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Revelation 1:5

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn

from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who

loves us and has FREED us from our sins by his BLOOD,

New International Version

............It Pleased God to Crucify His Son............


There is no truth more breathtaking than God’s gift of His Son. It could not have been said better than when it was spoken by John, the Apostle that leaned on Jesus’ breast. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) Neither the Romans nor the Jews crucified Jesus. The Father sent His Son, His own Eternal Son, out of His own bosom for the designed purpose of being the sacrifice of death to save from sin. Just as the Father slew the first sacrifice in the Garden of Eden to provide a temporary covering from sin, the Father provided the finished work on Calvary.


No one ever described the death of the Son of God better than Isaiah, Israel’s statesman prophet. Isaiah first spoke of the viciousness of Jesus’ suffering in His fleshly body that He bore as the instrument of sacrifice. "As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men." (Isaiah 52:14) He did not bare this body, His instrument of sacrifice, that we might glory in the beauty or the pain. It was God’s love and Christ’s love in that we were to rejoice, the willingness to take our place in the judgment of sin. This is the glory of the cross. The writer strengthened this truth in the following words, "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (Isaiah 53:2-3) We are not to glory in His flesh or our flesh, but in the triumph of that cross where God bridged the gap of separation between Himself and His redeemed saints.


Isaiah spoke of that bridge of redemption as He continued to prophesy of Christ, hundreds of years in advance. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." (Isaiah 53:4) He was our substitute; He took our place. Everything we deserved was laid upon Him. For all the pain that sin had earned, He was God’s answer and God’s offering in our stead. It is so easy to glory in the gore of His death without one moment of deep repentance for our own sins that he was dying to amend and atone.


This prophecy is careful not to bypass the real truth of His death. The Spirit said, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6) The Father laid on the very heart and soul of His Son every transgression of human history.

The Word said, ".laid on him the iniquity of us all." No sinner need despair because the debt is paid for all that turn wholly to Him. How could one man bare the sin of the world? Only because He was God in the flesh. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." (Matthew 1:23) The sacrifice was the Son of God because no one else could possibly be the sufficient sacrifice. It had to be God or all was lost.


The pleasure of the Father in this great moment of redemption must be understood by the largeness of His Divine capacity. We understand on a human level, but our Father knows love in the glory of His holiness. Isaiah dared to describe this glory of His love. "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isaiah 53:10-11) This is an even greater expression of love that John spoke about in his gospel. "For God so loved the world" is beautiful; but, to say, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him," overwhelms our soul. This is too high for me; it is love that stretches the breadth and length of this universe and must lift our hearts to reverence our God and to love Him with an everlasting love.


When the Son of God was dying and the throes of suffering had reached the highest levels, the Father turned from this universe and darkness enveloped the whole of it. Men have often contemplated those three hours of utter darkness. "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour." (Matthew 27:45) The answer for this darkness is so beautiful. The Father was willing, even pleased to sacrifice His Son, but He turned His head from the sorrows of this supernatural accomplishment. He could not watch, nor did He allow the crowd gathered around the scene to watch the darkest moments. "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46) It was done; the Father was pleased, although His heart was grieved for His Son.


The Son of God had walked where no one else could walk and He declared, "It is finished." The Father has NOW EXALTED HIS SON and GIVEN HIM A NAME,, which is ABOVE EVERY NAME. Eternity will reveal the glory of the Father’s love for His Son and His saints will rejoice in that glory.



http://www.pawcreek.org/salty-saints/pleased-crucify