My church is VERY contemporary, and fun. We start out singing very upbeat, almost Rock music, the band is VERY talented, and my church is big, and gets very crowded, and EVERYONE stands, and EVERYONE sings. So its very moving as well, than we greet the people around us, than we watch a video,(wellmade, fun videos, that portray the happenings in, or concerning religion), and than our pastor, who is totally hilarious, talks to us, teaches us, and makes us laugh our butts off in the process. He is 60, but is extremely hip, and cool.

Than we do offerings and pray, and than our pastor continues to talk until service is over, and sometimes has people come up, and share testimony. Its always different stuff, every Sunday, always fun, always funny, and its just about my favorite place to be.

Of course, I feel loved by Christ all of the time, but I feel (for some reason) that he receives my love towards him, more when im in the church. I sing to him, I praise him, I worship him, and I feel his presence more in church, than not in church. Maybe because im still a baby Christian.

I just wonder, how I ever lived life, before I started going to church. I GET ALOT FROM CHURCH, that I was missing out on, before I started to attend. I will be doing an audition, this month, to be in the choir. THATS WHERE I REALLY WANNA BE. I was in choir at my last church, and we even went to other churches, and sang, and it was not only fun, but very fullfilling as well, to share our praise music, and to hear theirs.

There is nothing better, for me, personally, than "rockin for the rock".





God Bless All!

No I'm not, why you always try to make the person you're discussing with look bad? The definition of sin is "Disobedience to God the father". Or exact definition - An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.



What are you talking about? God hasn't specifically told us to marry in those exact words. God did make man and woman for each, this much is true. And has told us how a marriage is permitted. Marriage is between two people whom love one another deeply and wish to spend the rest of their lives with. If they have not found each other, how is it they are sinning? They aren't necessarily "choosing" to not be married. They just haven't found the one they could spend the rest of their lives with.



I do not know, I'm not God. You'll have to ask God that when you meet him.



Why would he? Why should he? The human race was kicked out of the paradise for their disobedience. They did not deserve the paradise. Why create more people in the paradise that would lead to the possibility of the same outcome? That is what life here is for, to earn our way into the paradise. To show that we deserve it, or don't. To show that we are willing to be obedient and not disobey. Why create us there and kick us out as we disobey? Why not just wait and find out which ones wish to obey and which ones don't first?



Jesus didn't just "pay" for our sins. He died for our sins. Then defeated death for us when he was resurrected. He did die spiritually, he spent 3 days in Hell for us.

Acts 2:31

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Why would Jesus spend 3 days in hell for us if hell isn't intended for us as you have claimed?

You're not being anymore consistent in your fables than the Hebrews were in theirs. But then this doesn't surprise me in the least.

Clearly are confused about your own beliefs. Let me know when you get it all straightened out.

Sounds pretty cool. A church that makes worshiping into a party with lots of singing might be fun. And a preacher who uses humor in his sermons would be fun too. I think George Carlin would have made a good preacher too, except he would probably a bit too honest.

New Age Christianity really has no choice but to start making services fun and enjoyable events if it's going to survive. And doing away with the concept of hell for humans like Cowboy does makes it far more palatable too.

I wonder if anyone has ever taken a survey of how many denominations believe in hell for humans, and how many reject the concept. Also, how many churches within a specific denomination are actually in agreement on that point. I know that Bishop Carlton Pearson got in hot water for renouncing the concept of Hell within his denomination.

The Catholic Church firmly stands behind the concept of hell for humans, and they totally renounce the forms of protestantism that reject hell for humans as being afraid to commit to the scriptures (At least that's their stance). The Catholic Church often changes what it stands for too though, so who knows when they'll finally decide to give up on hell to make the religion more attractive.

Clearly religions are evolving along with everything else I guess.

By the way, I see they moved your bible study thread to the Christians forum. I guess they don't want that thread to become a huge argument over various interpretations of scriptures, especially offered by x-Christians like myself who might have alternative views, or comments to make about people being turned into pillars of salt by an angry God.

I wonder if anyone ever wrote a gospel tune about that.

That sounds like it could make an interesting Rock Song.

"Lots of Salt for Lot's Wife!"

Boy, I sure I could have some fun writing lyrics for that one.

Don't look back!
Don't look back!
Sodom and Gomorrah
is under attack!

Run for your life!
Cling to your wife!
It'll be your fault,
if she's turned into salt!

Sounds like a nursery rhyme.

I am being consistent, you're just not keeping up my friend. Hell is a holding place, it's not eternal, hell wasn't made for man. Two thirds of the Old Testament does not mention Hell at all. Sheol, the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means "grave" by definition.

And with it being translated as "grave" makes absolutely perfect sense. Because the only reward for sin is death, and where are people kept when they die? In a grave. When Jesus returns, the one's that passed judgement will be resurrected.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

And this is also consistent with what is inside the Earth, molten lava eg., fire and brimstone.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/religion.html

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/god.html

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/faith.html

Stop bashing each other with Verses that have been written decades after the Man allegedly lived,and stert a bit of thinking on your own!
Might just get somewhere!

I Double checked the following posts, to make

sure they all lined up with scripture:



...............Question: "What happens after death?"...............


Answer: Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion regarding what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final judgment, after which everyone will be sent to heaven or hell. Others believe that at the moment of death, people are instantly judged and sent to their eternal destinations. Still others claim that when people die, their souls/spirits are sent to a “temporary” heaven or hell, to await the final resurrection, the final judgment, and then the finality of their eternal destination. So, what exactly does the Bible say happens after death?

First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36). For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24).

Therefore, after death, a person resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

...............Question: "Is hell real? Is hell eternal?"...............


Answer: It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).

...............Question: "Is hell literally a place of fire and brimstone?"...............


Answer: By raining down fire and brimstone upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, God not only demonstrated how He felt about overt sin, but He also launched an enduring metaphor. After the events of Genesis 19:24, the mere mention of fire, brimstone, Sodom or Gomorrah instantly transports a reader into the context of God’s judgment. Such an emotionally potent symbol, however, has trouble escaping its own gravity. This fiery image can impede, rather than advance, its purpose. A symbol should show a similarity between two dissimilar entities. Fire and brimstone describes some of what hell is like—but not all of what hell is.

The word the Bible uses to describe a burning hell—Gehenna—comes from an actual burning place, the valley of Gehenna adjacent to Jerusalem on the south. Gehenna is an English transliteration of the Greek form of an Aramaic word, which is derived from the Hebrew phrase “the Valley of (the son[s] of) Hinnom.” In one of their greatest apostasies, the Jews (especially under kings Ahaz and Manasseh) passed their children through the fires in sacrifice to the god Molech in that very valley (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Jeremiah 32:35). Eventually, the Jews considered that location to be ritually unclean (2 Kings 23:10), and they defiled it all the more by casting the bodies of criminals into its smoldering heaps. In Jesus’ time this was a place of constant fire, but more so, it was a refuse heap, the last stop for all items judged by men to be worthless. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna hell, He was speaking of the city dump of all eternity. Yes, fire was part of it, but the purposeful casting away—the separation and loss—was all of it.

In Mark 9:43 Jesus used another powerful image to illustrate the seriousness of hell. “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.” For most readers, this image does escape its own gravity—in spite of the goriness! Few believe that Jesus wants us literally to cut off our own hand. He would rather that we do whatever is necessary to avoid going to hell, and that is the purpose of such language—to polarize, to set up an either/or dynamic, to compare. Since the first part of the passage uses imagery, the second part does also, and therefore should not be understood as an encyclopedic description of hell.

In addition to fire, the New Testament describes hell as a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13). The very variety of hell’s descriptors argues against applying a literal interpretation of any particular one. For instance, hell’s literal fire could emit no light, since hell would be literally dark. Its fire could not consume its literal fuel (persons!) since their torment is non-ending. Additionally, the gradation of punishments within hell also confounds literalness. Does hell’s fire burn Hitler more fiercely than an honest pagan? Does he fall more rapidly in the abyss than another? Is it darker for Hitler? Does he wail and gnash more loudly or more continually than the other? The variety and symbolic nature of descriptors do not lessen hell, however—just the opposite, in fact. Their combined effect describes a hell that is worse than death, darker than darkness, and deeper than any abyss. Hell is a place with more wailing and gnashing of teeth than any single descriptor could ever portray. Its symbolic descriptors bring us to a place beyond the limits of our language—to a place far worse than we could ever imagine.

..............Question: "How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?"...............



Answer: This is an issue that bothers many people who have an incomplete understanding of three things: the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of sin. As fallen, sinful human beings, the nature of God is a difficult concept for us to grasp. We tend to see God as a kind, merciful Being whose love for us overrides and overshadows all His other attributes. Of course God is loving, kind, and merciful, but He is first and foremost a holy and righteous God. So holy is He that He cannot tolerate sin. He is a God whose anger burns against the wicked and disobedient (Isaiah 5:25; Hosea 8:5; Zechariah 10:3). He is not only a loving God—He is love itself! But the Bible also tells us that He hates all manner of sin (Proverbs 6:16-19). And while He is merciful, there are limits to His mercy. “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon” (Isaiah 55:6-7).

Humanity is corrupted by sin, and that sin is always directly against God. When David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and having Uriah murdered, he responded with an interesting prayer: “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). Since David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah, how could he claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being (Psalm 90:2). As a result, all sin requires an eternal punishment. God’s holy, perfect, and infinite character has been offended by our sin. Although to our finite minds our sin is limited in time, to God—who is outside of time—the sin He hates goes on and on. Our sin is eternally before Him and must be eternally punished in order to satisfy His holy justice.

No one understands this better than someone in hell. A perfect example is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Both died, and the rich man went to hell while Lazarus went to paradise (Luke 16). Of course, the rich man was aware that his sins were only committed during his lifetime. But, interestingly, he never says, “How did I end up here?” That question is never asked in hell. He does not say, “Did I really deserve this? Don't you think this is a little extreme? A little over the top?” He only asks that someone go to his brothers who are still alive and warn them against his fate.

Like the rich man, every sinner in hell has a full realization that he deserves to be there. Each sinner has a fully informed, acutely aware, and sensitive conscience which, in hell, becomes his own tormenter. This is the experience of torture in hell—a person fully aware of his or her sin with a relentlessly accusing conscience, without relief for even one moment. The guilt of sin will produce shame and everlasting self-hatred. The rich man knew that eternal punishment for a lifetime of sins is justified and deserved. That is why he never protested or questioned being in hell.

The realities of eternal damnation, eternal hell, and eternal punishment are frightening and disturbing. But it is good that we might, indeed, be terrified. While this may sound grim, there is good news. God loves us (John 3:16) and wants us to be saved from hell (2 Peter 3:9). But because God is also just and righteous, He cannot allow our sin to go unpunished. Someone has to pay for it. In His great mercy and love, God provided His own payment for our sin. He sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross for us. Jesus’ death was an infinite death because He is the infinite God/man, paying our infinite sin debt, so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). If we confess our sin and place our faith in Christ, asking for God’s forgiveness based on Christ’s sacrifice, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. God loved us so much that He provided the means for our salvation, but if we reject His gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.

...............Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?"..............



Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.

Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10-11 as translated in the King James Version, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.”

Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9). As He hung there on the cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. He became sin for us: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross.

When Jesus cried upon the cross, “Oh, Father, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46), it was then that He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46). His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to the paradise side of hades. Jesus did not go to hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to hell? No. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes.

...............Question: "Where was Jesus for the three days between His death and resurrection?"..............



Answer: 1 Peter 3:18-19 states, "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison." The phrase, "by the Spirit," in verse 18 is exactly the same construction as the phrase, "in the flesh." So it seems best to relate the word "spirit" to the same realm as the word "flesh." The flesh and spirit are Christ's flesh and spirit. The words "made alive by (in) the spirit" point to the fact that Christ's sin-bearing and death brought about the separation of His human spirit from the Father (Matthew 27:46). The contrast is between flesh and spirit, as in Matthew 27:46 and Romans 1:3-4, and not between Christ's flesh and the Holy Spirit. When Christ's atonement for sin was completed, His spirit restored the fellowship which had been broken.

First Peter 3:18-22 describes a necessary link between Christ's suffering (verse 18) and His glorification (verse 22). Only Peter gives specific information about what happened between these two events. The word "preached" in verse 19 is not the usual word in the New Testament to describe the preaching of the gospel. It literally means to herald a message. Jesus suffered and died on the Cross, His body being put to death, and His spirit died when He was made sin. But His spirit was made alive and He yielded it to the Father. According to Peter, sometime between His death and His resurrection Jesus made a special proclamation to "the spirits in prison."

To begin with, Peter referred to people as "souls" and not "spirits" (3:20). In the New Testament, the word "spirits" is used to describe angels or demons, not human beings, and verse 22 seems to bear out this meaning. Also, nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus visited hell. Acts 2:31 says that He went to "Hades" (New American Standard Bible), but "Hades" is not hell. The word "Hades" refers to the realm of the dead, a temporary place where they await the resurrection. Revelation 20:11-15 in the NASB or the New International Version give a clear distinction between the two. Hell is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place.

Our Lord yielded His spirit to the Father, died, and at some time between death and resurrection, visited the realm of the dead where He delivered a message to spirit beings (probably fallen angels; see Jude 6) who were somehow related to the period before the flood in Noah's time. Verse 20 makes this clear. Peter did not tell us what He proclaimed to these imprisoned spirits, but it could not be a message of redemption since angels cannot be saved (Hebrews 2:16). It was probably a declaration of victory over Satan and his hosts (1 Peter 3:22; Colossians 2:15). Ephesians 4:8-10 also seems to indicate that Christ went to “paradise” (Luke 16:20; 23:43) and took to heaven all those who had believed in Him prior to His death. The passage doesn’t give a great amount of detail about what occurred, but most Bible scholars agree that this is what is meant by “led captivity captive.”

So, all that to say, the Bible isn’t entirely clear what exactly Christ did for the three days between His death and resurrection. It does seem, though, that He was preaching victory over the fallen angels and/or unbelievers. What we can know for sure is that Jesus was not giving people a second chance for salvation. The Bible tells us that we face judgment after death (Hebrews 9:27), not a second chance. There isn't really any definitively clear answer for what Jesus was doing for the time between His death and resurrection. Perhaps this is one of the mysteries we will understand once we reach glory.

King James -
Acts 2:31
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Common English version -
Acts 2:31
31 Having seen this beforehand, David spoke about the resurrection of Christ, that he wasn’t abandoned to the grave, nor did his body experience decay.

English Standard version -
Acts 2:31
31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

----------------

The word "hell" translates to grave in Hebrew and Hades means "concealed place for dead people."

since i do not have alot of time to explain like i used to i will just copy and paste also

http://www.yaim.org/web/literature/other-topics/95-lazarusandtherichman.html


The Truth About
Lazarus and the Rich Man
*(Inside Cover) "The true name of the Savior of the Bible, Yahshua, and His Father's Name, Yahweh, are restored in these pages. Superstitious scribes and misguided Bible translators took away these true names and substituted titles--God, Lord, Adonai. The Sacred Name is easily proved in good encyclopedias and dictionaries under the heading "Yahweh," "Jehovah," "God" or "Tetragrammaton." You may also request our free booklets or read them online, "The Heavenly Father's Great Name" and "The Missing J," which prove these names conclusively from common sources and Scriptures.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No words the Messiah spoke are used more often to show the state of the dead than Luke 16, the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Supposedly, we go either to heaven or to hellfire at death.

Attempts are made to show that this story is a real situation because the name of Lazarus, a Bible person, is used. Remember, though, that the Messiah's teachings were commonly carried in allegory. What He said at times represented principles with a deeper meaning than the way they were presented. Too often, His words were misinterpreted or misapplied.

The account of Lazarus and the rich man was also to teach something more than the state of the dead. The true understanding of His message has been overlooked and the real meaning forgotten. This parable, for the most part, has been twisted. The common interpretation that it means the good go to heaven and the wicked to hellfire runs counter to the rest of the Scriptures on the subject of death. And no interpretation can be accurate if it is opposed by other Scriptures.

A Message to a Group of Jews
In chapter 16 the account beings with Yahshua* (see above) the Messiah speaking to His disciples about the unjust steward. He concludes the parable in verse 13 by saying, "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve Yahweh* [see above] and mammon." Verse 14 relates that the Pharisees, an elite group of Jews and lovers of money, heard these things and then derided Him.

Beginning in verse 15 Yahshua speaks this parable directly to the Pharisees. It is important that we understand that His comments are an affront to the Pharisees because the parable is to teach a distasteful truth about them.

Let's look at the parable of Lazarus and the rich man verse by verse.

"There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day," Luke 16:19. The parable's opening verse is often said to convey that a rich man lived in splendor and gave no thought to the Heavenly Father. This may be true, but the point is that he was not among the poor, for he wore purple and "fine linen," indicative of wealth and royalty. His food was the best and it was more than ample. He feasted on the good things of life.

This rich man represents the Jewish nation at that time. Notice first that the Jewish nation still had the Levitical priesthood in the Messiah's day. The ten tribes by now had been taken captive and were scattered abroad. The tribe of Judah was favored and it was from the nation of Judah and its royal line that kings were to come, as Genesis 49:8-12 foretold.

Second, according to Romans 3:1-2, Judah was given special consideration by Yahweh: "What advantage then has the Jew or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of Yahweh." It was to the Jews that the Heavenly Father had entrusted the safekeeping of the Old Testament. They had kept the oracles or pronouncements of Yahweh for the world.

Immediately before giving the parables, Yahshua had said to the Pharisees, "You are they which justify yourselves before men," (Luke 16:1). In other words, the Pharisees were looking for ways to flaunt their positions before other people. They wanted to be highly esteemed among men. Instead of humbly being servants of all, the Pharisees wanted much praise, adulation and recognition from the people. They wore purple and fine linen with a flair.

Judah, with the Advantages, Shunned the Messiah
Yahshua continued in the 16th verse, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the Kingdom of Yahweh is preached and every man treats it with contempt." Yahshua is telling the Jews that He was there with the message of the coming Kingdom of Yahweh. He was proclaiming Himself as the representative of that Kingdom. The Jews, however, ignored what He said and tried to set aside all His teachings so that they might have preeminence.

He implicated the Jews in verse 18, "Whosoever puts away his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whosoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery." The reason the Messiah interjected adultery was that the Jews should have recognized that He was the Messiah. He represented the bridegroom for the coming Kingdom.

The Jews did not acknowledge Him as the Messiah. They rejected Him and committed spiritual adultery by setting up their own ideas and their own traditions and customs instead of looking to the Bible to make sure that they were in harmony with the meaning and the sense of Yahweh's Word.

The Pharisees represented the tribe of Judah. They had the advantage of knowing the law as well as having the priesthood in their midst. They lived richly. Their food was the best and more than ample. They feasted on the good things of life and held the key to knowledge of life to come.

Now Yahshua enters the heart of the allegory.

"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate full of sores. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores," verses 20-21. The two men are at opposite ends of the social and financial ladder. One enjoys the world's wealth and ease while the other is in dire poverty and disease. The rich man had everything in life.

The beggar was dependent upon the crumbs falling from the rich man's table. The beggar was never invited to join the banquet. But he lay at the gate of the rich man awaiting anything discarded from the rich man's house of plenty. Paul, in Romans 11:9-10, uses the same symbol of the table to show that the Pharisees believed their prosperity was a sign of Yahweh's blessing. By their attitude, they turned their prosperity into a curse.

The Identity of Lazarus
The note in the Companion Bible shows that the name "Lazarus" is a Talmudic contraction of the Hebrew "Eleazar," meaning "El has helped." Lazarus was not blessed in being a part of the household of the rich man. He was not given the food or the blessings that were given to the rich man.

In Genesis 15:2-3 is an indication of who this beggar Lazarus (Hebrew "Eleazar") is. Yahweh comes to Abraham in a vision, promising him that the Eternal is his great reward. Abraham asks, "Yahweh Elohim, what will you give me seeing I go childless and the steward of my house is this Eleazar of Damascus?" Abraham says Eleazar will be his heir, verse 3. However, the promise is made to Abraham that he will indeed have a child, who will be the one to whom the inheritance will go.

Back to the parable.

Luke 16:21 tells us the dogs licked the sores of Lazarus. We learn the meaning of dogs in Matthew 15:22-26, when a Gentile woman of Canaan sought Yahshua to heal her daughter. He ignored her, saying, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And she worshipped Him saying, 'Rabbi, help me.' He answered, 'It is not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs.'" He implies here that she is a Gentile and Gentiles were considered by some as dogs. This fact is explained in the Companion Bible note on Matthew 7:6. The meaning of Luke 16:21 is that Lazarus is no better off than other Gentile "dogs."

Where the Beggar Went
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom," verse 22. Many preachers tell us this means the beggar was carried off to heaven. Speaking of death, however, the Pharisees would say in their idiom that he sits in a favored position known as Abraham's bosom, according to Lightfoot's Commentary.

If Abraham himself is in heaven or in paradise, as many teach, then it should be fairly easy to prove from Scripture exactly that. We read his obituary of sorts in Genesis 25:7-9: "And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, 175 years. Then Abraham gave up the spirit, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre." Therefore, we see Abraham was buried and was "gathered to his people."

If Lazarus were in Abraham's bosom then he too would be buried in the cave of Machpelah in the field of Ephron. He is not now up in heaven or in Eden somewhere.

This obituary agrees with the prophecy of Abraham's death in Genesis 15:15. "And you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age." In death, Abraham was gathered to his people, his forefathers who died before him.

Now, many assume Abraham would be in heaven. But Joshua reveals that Abraham's forefathers worshipped idols. "And Joshua said unto all the people, thus says Yahweh Elohim of Israel, 'Your fathers dwelled on the other side of the Euphrates in old times, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor; and they served other deities," Joshua 24:2. Surely idol worshippers would not be in heaven. Yet, Abraham was with his forefathers, Scripture says.

Were they in an ever-burning hell, where it is popularly believed all wicked go? If so, Abraham was with them, along with Lazarus!

But wait. The explanation is so simple.

They Both Simply Died
The Biblical, idiomatic meaning of being gathered to his people or his fathers simply means that he joined the ranks of the dead. Abraham (and Lazarus) was dead and buried as were his fathers before him. He is not up in heaven or in hell, but is buried in the earth awaiting the resurrection from the grave.

No man has ascended up to heaven, the Messiah said plainly in John 3:13, not even King David, Acts 2:34.

Luke 16:22 continues, "The rich man also died and was buried," meaning both the beggar and rich man died and were put in graves. Both await the resurrection. So there is no difference between the rich and the poor--death comes to us all, even to animals, Psalm 49:14.

Scriptures say simply, Abraham is dead. In John 8:52 the Jews remarked to Yahshua, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham is dead and the prophets, and you say, 'If a man keep My sayings he shall never taste of death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham who is dead? And the prophets are dead? Who do you make yourself?" Yahshua ignored their question.

Surely if Abraham were in heaven here was a perfect chance to straighten them out and say that Abraham is not really buried but that he is up in heaven somewhere or that his soul is in heaven. However, He said nothing of the sort. He simply went on to say that Abraham could foresee Yahshua's day and rejoice in it.

Was the Rich Man in Hell?
In Luke 6:23 we have the resurrection of the rich man (which is at the Second Coming of Yahshua, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). "In the grave [which is the real meaning of the Greek word hades, commonly translated hell] the rich man lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham." The Savior said in verse 22 that Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. This is the same expression Yahshua used in Matthew 24:31, when He said He would send his angels to gather the elect in the first resurrection just before the Kingdom of Yahweh is established on the earth. Lazarus had been accounted worthy of that first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:6.

The Kingdom of Yahweh will be established according to the prophecy of Yahshua the Messiah in Luke 13:28. Note His words, "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom and you yourselves thrust out." Obviously, the rich man was not accounted worthy to be in the first resurrection and be in the Kingdom of Yahweh.

Being in Abraham's bosom has the sense of being in a close relationship with someone in a preferred place. In Galatians 3:7 Paul tells us, "Know therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the Scriptures, foreseeing that Yahweh would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the Good News unto Abraham, saying, 'In you shall all nations be blessed.' So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." Paul here clarifies the meaning of the promise given to Abraham and those who live by the same faith that Abraham exhibited.

The beggar was one of the faithful who was in the first resurrection. A thousand years later, when the rich man is brought back to life in the second resurrection, he sees Lazarus now in a favored position--in the Kingdom with Abraham.

Mental Anguish Leaves His Mouth Dry
Verse 23 says the rich man was in "torment." The word is from the Greek basanos. It has the meaning of test, inquisition and trial. Figuratively, it means mental torment. Paul explains this in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 where the judgment is likened to fire in which works are tested to see whether they survive the trial.

Realizing that he has not attained the first resurrection with the promises given to the faithful, the rich man is anxious and tense. The roof of his mouth and tongue go dry. He asks in verse 24 that Lazarus might be sent to dip the tip of his finger in water to cool his tongue because he is in anguish over this testing.

Certainly if this were the destroying flame of the Gehenna fire, the rich man would have asked for more than a drop of water on his tongue. He would have screamed for barrels of water to save him from the all-consuming flame.

He realizes that he now has been excluded from the first resurrection of the saints.

Abraham reminds the rich man in verse 25, "Son, remember that you in your lifetime received the good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and you are tormented [tried, distressed--Greek odunaomai]. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, which would come from thence." The great gulf that is fixed is a type of the Jordan Valley, over which those that crossed were in the Promised Land.

Abraham and the resurrected saints are shown in a favored position, having inherited the Kingdom. The rich man is excluded. He does not have on the wedding garment of Matthew 22 and is being taken away as shown in verse 13. There the Savior Yahshua said, "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." He further said in Revelation 3:18, "I counsel you to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed."

Rich Man, Judah, Pleads for His Israelite Brothers
In verse 27, the rich man pleads that Abraham would send Lazarus to his father's house to testify to his five brothers, lest they end up in his situation. A strong case for showing that the rich man represents Judah is in Genesis 29, where we read of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Genesis 35:23 lists the five brothers of Judah born to their mother Leah. They all represent people who have a Bible truth. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is actually about Judah and his five brothers who have also neglected proper worship of Yahweh and fall into the same condemnation.

Notice Abraham's response. "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." Abraham tells the rich man that we today have in Scripture the writing of Moses and the prophets and can study it ourselves and repent.

The rich man objects, "No, father Abraham, but if one went unto them from the dead they will repent." Judah is certain that his brothers will listen only if one rose from the dead and went to them with the message of salvation. Notice the response of Abraham, verse 31: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead."

Abraham clearly shows in the parable that even though Yahshua would rise from the dead as a proof and witness that those who have the Bible will not come to a saving knowledge of the Messiah because they are too steeped and blinded by their traditions. They are all wrapped up in their man-made purple and fine linen.

This is a condemnation of those who have all the advantages of today. Those of us who have Bible translations, dictionaries, lexicons, concordances, commentaries--all the study helps--have neglected to come to an understanding of Yahweh's righteousness. It is a matter of "ever studying and never coming to the knowledge of the truth," 2 Timothy 3:7.

The rich man realizes that he had not done what he knew was right to do. He enjoyed the good life and did not sincerely seek Yahweh's narrow pathway. He went the broad way, like many do today, of dining on the word without applying any of it to himself. Neither did he proclaim the Word to others who might benefit from the knowledge and understanding of the coming Kingdom.

Lazarus the Gentile
Lazarus, on the other hand, represents Gentiles who snatch up every crumb of truth and live by it. Lazarus and the rich man is a condemnation of our affluence and our unwillingness to follow the truth of the Scripture as we should. Generally, the civilized nations in the northern hemisphere and in Europe have all the advantages of Yahweh's truth. But we ignore the lessons and go on to do what will satisfy our fleshly desires. We commit spiritual adultery by taking up with the world.

The ten northern tribes of Israel have been carried away captive, but Judah, along with part of the tribe of Benjamin and the priests of Levi, was left in Jerusalem. It was Judah that was given the scepter and stood in regal acclaim according to the promises of Yahweh. It was the Jews who had the Old Testament Scriptures and had the promises given to them. They were to share these with others and not to keep all the blessings to themselves. So they are depicted as dressed in regal apparel and dining sumptuously every day.

What the Parable Says and Does Not Say
Is Abraham in Heaven? Is this parable another way of telling us that Lazarus did, after all, go to heaven? Yahshua said, "No man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven," John 3:13.

The Savior is called "the first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5. If He is the first to be raised from the dead, none of the people of the Old Testament could have been raised before Him, could they? But they were promised everlasting life. Twice in the Hebrews 11 "Who's Who" of the righteous patriarchs and prophets we read that they died--not having received the promise, verses 13 and 39. Abraham and the others are assured a place in the Kingdom, though, when the dead of the earth are raised at the Messiah's Second Coming, 1 Corinthians 15:52, John 13:28-29.

When you die, your thinking and your total awareness stop, Psalm 6:5. "The dead know not anything," we find in Ecclesiastes 9:5 and "For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave whither you go," verse 10.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man shows that we cannot be smug and rejoice in our own conceits. We are to be a channel of Yahweh's Word to others, reaching out to share the glorious Good News of the coming Kingdom and the part man can have in it.

This might better be called the Parable of the Six Brothers--six being man's number with his carnal viewpoint. The lesson is, look beyond this life. Look to Yahshua the Messiah. Pursue spiritual goals that bring eternal life. "If you will enter into life, keep the commandments," Matthew 19:17.

HalleluYAH!

What are you talking about?



No he is not implying this at all. He is saying the crums are for the dog's, and gave her "real" food, real food as in more then just crums.

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

If you read further, he heals the daughter and tells her that what she wants will be given eg., the food she was asking for and more.

Amen to that!!

Miles wrote:






Miles... BEFORE Jesus became INCARNATE , Abraham

and all others who were accounted as being righteous,

went to PARADISE....or the "Bosom of Abraham" , after they DIED.

NOT HEAVEN YET.


Remember when Jesus was on that cross, He told the

good thief," THIS DAY, you shall see me in PARADISE.

Jesus said,"THIS DAY".

But also remember, Jesus walked on this earth for 40

days BEFORE he finally ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN.


So ..point being, Jesus descended into hades/sheol, where a

place called Paradise also was located(paradise was the holding

place of all those who believed and were counted as righteous

before Christ time on earth )...and Jesus TOOK all those in

paradise, UP TO HEAVEN WITH HIM.


And since Jesus has ASCENDED BACK UP INTO HEAVEN,

when Believers die now, they also go straight to heaven.


HOWEVER,, our PHYSICAL bodies will NOT be in heaven UNTIL GOD

RESSURRRECTS OUR PHYSICAL BODIES at a later time....and

of course, that time is yet to come.


(However please notice in matthew 27: 51-53:

"Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto

the ninth hour." "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in

twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the

rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the

saints which slept arose, and CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES AFTER HIS

RESSURRECTION, and went into the holy city and appeared unto

many."


So....at Jesus's ressurrection, some saints that were asleeep

ALSO AROSE .....


Wow......





P.S .... Oh....and Miles....as far as the rest of this post

that you shared here, is concerned?

I say this in all seriousness now...

Once again as before, I did

not sense the leading of Holy Spirit in this post you

just shared , either.

Not one bit.