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| Topic: I'm just asking for clarification.... | |
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Hey Lilly, I just checked out your profile. Very nice, very pretty. But you should really get out in the sun more often. You look a little green in one of the pictures.  
Watch your tongue or I'll sick my flying monkies on you..... Oh, no!! If I only had some c..c..c..courage 
huhuhuhu If I only had a brain.... |
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Hey Lilly, I just checked out your profile. Very nice, very pretty. But you should really get out in the sun more often. You look a little green in one of the pictures.
Watch your tongue or I'll sick my flying monkies on you..... Oh, no!! If I only had some c..c..c..courage
huhuhuhu If I only had a brain.... And the Wizard Of Oz references continue to fly. But, it is hurricane season. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 09/01/08 10:02 PM
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Edited by
muso948
on
Mon 09/01/08 10:10 PM
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Mon 09/01/08 10:17 PM
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So where are you going when you die?
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A banana and a pitch fork. I'm troubled by the symbolism.
Just kidding 
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A banana and a pitch fork. I'm troubled by the symbolism.
Just kidding
 I know whatcha mean brutha. I was very troubled by it too
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Many Christians claim that life begins at conception, concomitant, therefore, with the creation of a new immortal soul. Since Nature (read:God?) spontaneously aborts as many 10% of the living bodies of these alleged souls, and as theorized in this thread that these souls are given a free pass into heaven by virtue of never having the ability to make choices, does it not follow that 10% of the population of heaven must therefore be embryonic beings without free will, sentinence or moral experience? Virtual autotomatons with nothing in common with the rest of the population? I've never heard a logical refutation of this idea from any Christian. If they say anything, they'll invoke the "Mysterious" clause, drop the hot potato and burn rubber leaving the vicinity. -Kerry O. There's no reason to refute what you are saying - you are on the right track. However - the idea of "embryonic beings" falls short of the biblical doctrine of recieving a new physical body at the ressurection - until that time, it is the spirit that survives in heaven. Since there is no evilin heaven, there is no need to have to have discernment when nothing but the absolute truth is known. It is n't a matter of being an autotomaton, which I assume means having choices made for you. Why would one not remain with choices in heaven? It would be a matter of desire as opposed to the lesser of two evils, as it were. Also - why is one limited in "heaven" to the experiences here on earth - what does one have to do with the other - other than one having to answer for what they did here. If one does nothing wrong, they have nothing to answer for. What were you expecting to have to be refuted? But Eljay, most Christian doctrine says that humans by default are sinners. They are born sinful. And that choice is the basis for morality and freewill. How can a two-celled organism be said to be able to exercise choice? Here again we have contradiction explained away by special dispensations when it's convenient, while the rest of the time things are dealt out as absolutes, such as "No one cometh to the Father but by me." Then there are other observable phenomenon like human chimeras and identical twins that aren't easily explained by doctrine, either. We know that identical twins start out as the same zygote. So, were there two souls there from the start, or was one added only after the division? In the case of the rarer from of chimeras, where the embryoes of fraternal twins merge to form one fetus, we have the opposite problem. And we won't even go into the fact that embryoes can handily survive being frozen, no human ever born has. See, this is why I can't believe most Christian doctrine-- not only can it not explain these anomalies, it doesn't even allow for them! -Kerry O. Kerry; Well - my understanding of the "most christian doctorine" idea was limited in my life to Catholicism - which I abandoned years ago. Since that time I've examined the actual bible for myself, and tend to realize doctrine from that - as opposed to a large group of people who denominilize themselves with a group name and a set of standards they supposedly adhere to. That being said. The idea that man is "born sinful" comes as a hindsight obsevance more than a predictable one. It is the "soul who sins who will die." Since we're all gonna die (circuit Country Joe & the Fish) - it is generally understood that the death refered to here is one of a spiritual nature. A separation from God (He of the scriptural variety) That now brings into question "The age of reason" as a dividing line of who has separated themselves from God and who hasn't. The idea of a 5 year old having to "repent and put their faith in Jesus" is illogical to a Christian - but a point of contention for those arguing against it. The fact of the matter is - who knows. The idea of sin is an open rebellion against God, and repenting from it is just giving up the rationalizations behind it, and saying - "Yup, makes sense to me." I don't know a lot of 5 year olds capable of this process of thinking. But I digress... It is not definitive at what point an organism formed from the union of an egg and sperm recieves a "soul" as it were. At 2 cells, 8 or 16... But given the idea of omniscience as attributed to God, it can be safetly assumed He does, and remains the only one who knows when that "organism" represents one worthy of occupying a place in heaven - whether it is aborted in the 1st trimester, gets killed in an accident at 5 years old, or lives to be a hundred. The idea of the "twins" dillema is not difficult to reason out. At some point - the one will become two, and their fate is already known by God. He does not have to "wait with bated breath" to determine how he is going to distribute each their "souls" - or wait on the woman to determine when. These are not concerns for God - only man who demands answers to hypotheticals that exist outside the realm of understanding how God does his work. And expects them to fit a predetermined criteria. Christian doctrine has no "answer" for this in a scientific realm - because there is a uniqueness to every circumstance of birth. The biblical doctrine in this realm is that God knows every individual, and the path and choices they will make for themselves before He even determines if they'll see the light of day. He has exposed Himself in His word, and will remain consistent to that. If at some point, the individual rebells, and sins (recognized by a moment of conscience searing) He will have realized a spiritual death. This is a soul who now needs faith in Jesus to be reconciled back to God. Now - I really don't know the ins and outs of all "christian doctrine" - but this is a biblical "truth" as it were, and if "Christian doctrine" is equal to that, than it can be relied upon. This is to say - of course that when discussing matters as these, that the premise of a Chriatina God - and his place in heaven, is assumed a valid preimise in determining the "salvation" of those to which we are refering. The children who have no reasonable understanding of repentance and salvation, and the various stages of embrionic development. If the "Christian doctrine" that you don't belive in do not support these concepts - I stand in agreement with you. I wouldn't support them either. |
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But you'll both still go to hell is you don't accept Jesus as your saviour... Just saying... 
You are putting the cart before the horse. The correct interpretation of what the truth of this statement is - If you do not put your faith in Jesus, you will not spend eternity in heaven with Him. This is done by those who make this decision for themselves - not through any choice of Jesus. He's already done what He needed to do for man to spend eternity with Him. If they chose not to - they are ree to make that choice. The alternative to spending eternity without Jesus leaves those who make that decision left with their own idea of what awaits them, (which in biblical terms is "hell") and the reliance on what evidentuary fact supports their theory. |
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 By learning to combine Dianetics and Christian Wicca I have obtained powers far beyond an other Jedi.
 When a person passes from the plane of existence his spirit returns to The Force.
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 09/02/08 12:04 AM
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By learning to combine Dianetics and Christian Wicca I have obtained powers far beyond an other Jedi.
When a person passes from the plane of existence his spirit returns to The Force.
(...  there's something wrong with that boy... ..)
No offense Mirror... you seem rather confused... 
Come over to the light side and do God's work with me.
We must spread the word that the word is not the word. Word! JB |
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If you do not put your faith in Jesus, you will not spend eternity in heaven with Him. This is done by those who make this decision for themselves - not through any choice of Jesus.
You just don't seem to get it Elay. It can't be like that, because to not believe in the Bible is not the same as choosing to not put your faith in "Jesus". No one in this day and age has ever met Jesus! It's impossible to put your faith in Jesus Eljay! The very best you can do is put your faith in the Gospels. You are putting your faith in the stories of other men. Jesus himself never even wrote down a single word! The Bible doesn't contain a single solitary word from Jesus. All it contains is hearsay from other people. It's impossible to put your faith in Jesus. It's impossible to put your faith in God via an ancient doctrine of any kind! What you are doing is putting your faith in ancient gossip. You are believing in gossip, not gospels! The very idea that to reject the Bible is the same as rejecting Jesus just doesn't wash. It's a no-go! It can't be like that. Any God who would demand that we believe in some arbitrary mythology would be far from righteous! And from our point of view it most certainly is arbitrary. There is absolutely no more reason that I should believe in Christianity, than to believe in Judaism, or Islam, or even Greek Mythology for that matter! And those are just a few of the many mythologies that arose from the Mediterranean area. What you are suggesting simply cannot be true. No God that did that would be righteous at all. Any God that allowed his so-called "word" to become so confused and distored could never blame anyone for not believing it and claim that they are 'rejecting' him by their own free will choice. That's utterly absurd and doesn't wash. They only way that any one can reject a God is to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the God exists and precisely what it want from them. Anything less that this would be a God who gambles with human souls by making them play guessing games as to which (if any) mythologies might be true! It just cannot be like that Eljay. It doesn't wash. It doesn't hold water. A God who would be like that would not be rightesous at all. Why should I believe that we fell from grace from God in the first place? That's biblical mythology! Why should I believe that God is at war with a fallen angel he can't keep under control? That's biblical mythology! Why should I believe that God told people to stone each other? That's biblical mythology! Why should I believe that God can't forgive unless he is appeased by a blood sacrifice? That's biblical mythology! By the time we get up to Christ the story is already so outrageously unbelievable I'm not even interested in hearing any more about it. However, even if I continue to read what do I hear? I hear Jesus contradicting himself through the written words of men who are making claims about what he might have said? Why should I believe them? According to them Jesus didn't even agree with much of what the original God of the Old Testament demanded. Jesus did not condone the stoning of sinners. Jesus did not condone getting even "and eye for and eye". Instead he taught to turn the other cheek. I don't see where Jesus claimed to be God anymore than an pantheist would. I think the people who wrote about him were confused about his message and made it into something that Jesus never intended it to be! How is that rejecting Jesus? I'm rejecting the gossip that was passed on about Jesus by other men! I don't believe that the creator of this universe sent Jesus here to be nailed to a cross to appease himself for the disobedience of men so he can forgive them of their sins. That's utterly outrageous and absurdly insane! Why would I want to believe that the creator of this universe is utterly outrageous and absurdly insane? It's a train-wrecked religion Eljay. It started out being about Good and Evil behavior. Now what's it all about? Whether or not a person believes that Jesus was God? When did things change? I thought God was supposed to be unchanging. Does he care about behavior like he used to? Or has he changed now to care more about a person believes? It's a train-wrecked religion. It's not even on the same tracks as when it first started out. To think that because someone doesn't believe in such an absurd self-inconsistent and ulimately bigoted and hateful story of a God who tells people to throw stone that they will be rejected from eternal life is an absurd thought. God cannot be like this picture Eljay, and still even be anywhere remotely righteous, all-loving, all-merciful, etc, etc, etc. It's a have your cake and eat it too dogma that doesn't make any sense at all. 
If God really was like that he's be a terrible God. Utterly terrible. |
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Word!
JB |
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Vison!
JA |
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Vizir
B.A. |
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http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/salvation.html
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But you'll both still go to hell is you don't accept Jesus as your saviour... Just saying...
You are putting the cart before the horse. The correct interpretation of what the truth of this statement is - If you do not put your faith in Jesus, you will not spend eternity in heaven with Him. This is done by those who make this decision for themselves - not through any choice of Jesus. He's already done what He needed to do for man to spend eternity with Him. If they chose not to - they are ree to make that choice. The alternative to spending eternity without Jesus leaves those who make that decision left with their own idea of what awaits them, (which in biblical terms is "hell") and the reliance on what evidentuary fact supports their theory. It was a joke Ejay a joke.... it's called a sense of humor they're nice you should get one. |
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"The alternative to spending eternity without Jesus leaves those who make that decision left with their own idea of what awaits them, (which in biblical terms is "hell") and the reliance on what evidentuary fact supports their theory."
What are you implying here? That if I choose not to accept Christ as my savior, I am going to hell? What if I dont believe in hell? Is that just your own interpretation of what might possibly occur when a non-Christian is post mortem? We have no way of knowing about any of this so to just come to random conclusions and brash generalizations based on faith is not a good idea. It also marginalizes others in your life. |
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The whole idea of Hell is an oxymoron in the first place. Hell is supposed to be separation from God. But that very idea implies that there is some place other than God's presence where a person could exist. That would mean that there is something other than God! The mythology just wasn't very well thought out before it was published.
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