In the Bible it says that if you repent/get saved/ accept jesus as your saviour (however you want to put it) you will be allowed into heaven

and say Jeffrey Dahmer or John Wayne Gayce on his death bed was saved/repented/ accepted Jesus as his saviour is he in heaven?

and on the flip side would his victims if not given the chance to be saved/repent/accepted jesus as their saviour are they in hell?

Anyone?

I dunno Lily, I read it, and kind of had a chuckle to myself, thinking these religion thingos create more questions than they answer.

Hell in my opinion was a man made scare tactic invented a few thousand years ago to scare the general masses in line... just like the boogeyman and kids.

I'd love to know the answer to that too. Seems like everyone who ever gets locked up for any length of time "finds God".

I've offered this up many times before.

Here's the scenario:

You have a lovely daughter. As a child she gives all her toys away to other children. It actually ticks you off a bit because you're the one who has to buy them. But at the same time you can't help but appreciate her loving generosity.

As she grows she becomes a singer in the choir and everyone loves to come to chruch to hear her sing.

As she become a young adult she joins the Red Cross and puts her life on the line in war zones to save soldiers. During that part of her life she realizes that religion isn't all it's cracked up to be. She denounces Chrisitainity in favor of the more loving and embracing pantheistic world view.

Dispite your attempts to bring her back into the church she politely declines saying that she just can't believe that crap anymore and she doesn't beleive that Jesus was God. She's convinced that it's all just a myth.

She goes into nursing and works for a chilren's hospital donating much overtime to care for the torn and tattered children.

One night on the way home from work she is brutally raped and murdered by truly sick and demented man who shows absolultey no remorse.

Out of anger you attend his trial to be sure he gets what he deserves and the whole time he just looks at you and laughs and winks at you giving you the thumbs up indicating that he really enjoyed raping your daughter.

He's sentenced to life imprisonment.

At the end of life you go to heaven. Jesus is waiting for you at the gait. Next to him is standing the 'saved' demented rapist. He had a 'change of heart' whilst in prison.

You turn to Jesus and ask, "Where's my daughter?"

He looks at you with sad eyes and says, "She refused to worship me".

What do you think of Jesus now?

Well first of all you would need to buy into the concept of a heaven. Not everyone does. Nor is everyone a Christian and some Christians have little to no faith in heaven or they perceive it in another way entirely. The variables are endless.

I know in prison they OFTEN push Christianity on the inmates. It’s a real pain in the ass if you want to know the truth. From what I have had explained to me, if you become a "thumper" inside and are not genuinely committed to the faith, you WILL most assuredly be singled out and given a beating. You see, devoutly religious people are very often left alone in a prison environment. So if the perception of the other prisoners is that you are using it to "cover" yourself, you will be addressing this issue with god probably a lot sooner than you had anticipated.

The clarification is only what you personally believe is to be true.

Oh I'm not Christian and i don't believe in heaven and hell for me, but I'm wondering how this is infact conveyed in a Christian religion... I will accept a concept if presented correctly... I'm wanting someone to present it in a way that I can accept it....

I’m not Christian either. So no, don’t look to me for that kind of thing. My feeling is there are no humans in the world "born evil" but there is most assuredly evil men and women who manage to do some horrible things to one another. I don’t believe in a hell or any kind of eternal purgatory or that you have to push giant boulders up steep mountains for a million years only to lose your footing every time you reach the pinnacle and have the rock tumble back down. Na. Nothing like that. I had hell described to me like that once.

My feeling is you really need to do the best you can here and now on Earth to enjoy this little bit of time that you have. I know that sounds simple but it is. Because say I get hit by a bus tomorrow crossing the street. If I wake up in "heaven" and everyone has wings on and flowing robes, I will know THEN that I screwed up but even then it wont matter as long as I had a nice life here.

Yes, the only "requirement" for entering heaven is to accept Jesus as your Savior. And as long as there is true repentance on the person's part, it does not matter who they are or what they did previously.

I take issue with the "would his victims if not given the chance..." because everyone is given the chance. But if you do not accept Jesus, you do go to hell.

And while I sometimes enjoy all of the back and forth that I read in this forum, the above is all that matters, truly. Not trying to offend anyone that does not believe, please. Just that all the other falls away.

It boils down to this...Either you accept Jesus as your Savior and go to heaven or you refuse Him and go to hell.

so if the victim was say Jewish and was raised Jewish and did not know about Christianity and was say 16 and still under the guidance of their parents and not exposed to any other religious beliefs that victim would go to hell and the serial killer would go to heaven?

Whoa..the simple answer is yes.

But the problem is the idea that the victim does not know about Christianity. Perhaps he does not know about the religion, but it's hard to hide from God. People (myself included) question the idea that not everyone in the world knows about God/Jesus, i.e. people living in remote areas, with little or no exposure to civilization. (Also, I only have limited knowledge of Judaism, but I think Jesus is spoken of, in the sense that He is not the Messiah that Jews seek.)

The rebuttal to the above is the idea that God shows Himself to everyone, even through the creation around us. Now, is this the same as understanding that you (or I) need to accept Jesus as my Savior? No, but it's a steppingstone. And God invites everyone to have a relationship with Him/Jesus on an individual level. So, everyone gets a chance (but we really get numerous chances) to make that choice.

I think that he honored her wish and she recieved what she desired. She did not want Jesus in her life - why would she now want to be with him in death?

You are not refused entrance into heaven because of ignorance - but because of rebellion.

Although I am of the opinion that the proffered scenario is a good illustration of the absurdity of the hard-line christian doctrine, ya gotta admit that this is a VERY good point.

I don't think it's a good point at all.

To not believe in something is not at all the same as rejecting it.

What really amazes me is that people seem to be totally ok with Jesus being THAT stupid!

I'm only a mere mortal man and I know better than that.

If run off and play hide & seek and never fullfill any of the promises I made before I left, could I really blame people for not believing in me?

Absoltuely NOT. There's no connection at all. I'd have to be a completely moron to think that way. And Jesus is no exemption to that same conclusion.

The whole idea that non-belief equates to rejection is utterly groundless and without merit.

So, no, I don't agree with Eljay's response. It's totally unsound and without merit.

Ok, so lets say that in some third world country that is taken over by other countries on a daily basis and the basics are barely there (ie...food, water, shelter) and a rebel troup comes in and kills a whole tribe or town, do those children who have never been exposed to Christianity refused in heaven? It says in the Bible the ONLY way to heaven is acceptance right?

As I understand it, you are only given a place in heaven if you accept Jesus as your savior.... If I don't know about Jesus does that mean I am not allowed in heaven?

When I first read it I accepted that as an answer, thinking as a selfish human, but are you telling me that God would prefer in his company those who worship him and do wrong then those who may or maynot and do right?

Are you saying that God is so egotistical that he only wants to be worshiped and not for us to do the right things in life?

I have a Titanic intellect ... In a world full of icebergs

If you got that information from the New Testament it is a moot point. The New Testament is pure fiction.

As for Jeffry Damer or John Wayne Gayce, they aren't mentioned in the Bible.

It is all a moot point anyway.

JB