so, you admit to accepting the findings, so-called discoveries, and Theories presented by the Scientific Community, but You literally have no idea what they are saying, concluding, or if they could be wrong.

from Big Bang, the Blast, to the outer edges of the Universe, there are Red Lines within the microwave spectrum. it's these Red lines they count to calculate how old the Universe is (13.8 Billion Years Old).

but, and a few have admitted (probably because 51% of those within the Scientific Community believes in GOD) they have intently skipped past the Red Lines within our own Galaxy.

and if these lines were Calculated in, the Universe now becomes "LESS THAN" on a severe scale, like around ONLY TWO BILLION YEARS OLD!!


those are the Red-Lines i keep speaking about..

Science is trying to define our Galaxies Red Line as Pink in order to skip past them.

the spectrum colors are typically red and blue, but pink has now become the issue.

it's Red lines (counted as Red Lines) but now determined to faint for Red and must be Pink.

this is done in order to keep the Universe OLDER than it factually is!!

Thanks for the info. I had absolutely no idea that scientists are so dishonest! Your opinions are fascinating, but of course have nothing to do with this thread. There is no god, simple as that!

Just had a look at google and it seems I was wrong. Scientists are not dishonest after all. What has actually been found is that there is a possibility that a different measurement could come up with a different answer. The universe could actually be older, or younger, than the generally accepted figure of arounf 13 billion years old. These findings are nothing whatsoever to do with scientists 'trying to skip past' things they don't like. You sound like a conspiracy theorist! The truth is that nobody knows for certain and there are several different ways of making this measurement.

A Harvard astronomer, Avi Loeb, has said the latest research is an interesting and unique way to calculate the universe's expansion rate, but the large error margins limits its effectiveness until more information can be gathered.

In other words, we're talking here about ongoing research and certainly nothing at all to do with scientists 'pretending' that things are different from their calculations. They have just discovered there are other ways of making this measurement and are not yet certain, due to error margins, which is the more correct.

As always, a very simple explanation, nothing to do with conspiracy theories and nothing to do with this thread!

i knew that, but they suddenly discovered this idea when they were being called out for the Red Line fraud i brought to Your attention.

You believe as you like, but you have proven you don't keep up with Science enough to know what is what and then preach like they are the intelligence we need for all things in life and on life.

you did not even know that Science had been proven wrong concerning this issue and why the importance of a newer way to calculate was called for.

and now they are saying it, the Universe, and that means everything else, might be like I had mentioned, YOUNGER!! way younger!!

Your acceptance of Science is befuddling!!

No they don't.
They do use what is called "Red Shift" to determine if objects are moving away from us.
Age is calculated by measuring the distances and radial velocities of other galaxies, most of which are flying away (redshifted) from our own at speeds proportional to their distances.

Researchers who determined that light from the galaxy known as EGS-zs8-1 has spent more than 13 billion years traveling to reach us here on Earth.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/08/405280915/at-13-billion-light-years-away-galaxy-is-farthest-to-be-measured-from-earth

Perhaps this will help: http://labman.phys.utk.edu/phys222core/modules/m6/The%20EM%20spectrum.html




The most distant objects are found by the `dropout' method, where the high redshift of a galaxies means that the blue portion of its spectrum will have very little luminosity compared to its red light. ~ http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/cosmo/lectures/lec12.html


I explained this here in one of the science threads awhile ago.
It has to do with occluded objects and object beyond our instruments ability to see.

Astronomers from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS) said on May 18, 2017 that they’ve created the largest and most detailed three-dimensional map of the universe to date, using bright quasars as reference points. ~ https://earthsky.org/space/biggest-3-d-map-universe-sdss-sloan

Also have a look at ~ https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/planck/multimedia/pia16873.html

If you think about it, the Universe's shape should be a stickyball.

The so-called 'big bang' or 'creation' is at the center and the Universe radiates outward on all tangents from that point.
Our view is within one of those suction cups.
We can't see (detect) the other suction cups or their stems because the only thing we can detect is light spectrum that actually hits our detectors. Like a needle oreinted point first in the flow of a raging river. Our actual view is relative to us.
If we moved our observation point a billion or so light years in any direction, our view would change.
The 13.7 billion year age is the "Observable Universe". It is the limit of our observation ability at this time.

As for the expansion rate.
I also addressed my thoughts on that in our science forum.
Has to do with anti-big bang and contracting instead of expanding.
All based on relativity and observation.

Like I said time and again, there could be a God that created everything by setting something in motion, I just know it has nothing to do with human religion.

Nobody knows how big or how old the Universe is. We just don't have the ability to know for sure.
Nobody knows if a God exists. We just don't have the ability to know for sure.

The Universe however is reality because it can be observed, tested and measured with reproducable results by independent observers.
Your God requires agreement and belief first. It is not able to be observed, tested and measured with reproducable results by independent observers.

I guess there is no such thing as as a 'red line fraud' - conspiracy theories again!

I do of course know about - and understand - the 'red shift' phenomenon. I had thought that those 'red lines' were something I didn't know about.

Well, I wasn't sure which is why I decided to look up the "red line determination for the age of the universe".
Every .edu or .pdf reference involving 'red', 'age' and 'universe' talked about redshift, not red line.

Even NASA, you know that place that employs insane scientists references red'shift'.

~ wiki

In defense, the graphic on wiki does have what could be thought of as red lines and the magenta part of the spectrum resembes pink if you tilt yer head just so.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Redshift.svg/170px-Redshift.svg.png ~ image url.

(Ooh Red Lines) Vision dreams of passion
(Blowin' through my mind) and all the while I think of you
(High fry) a very strange reaction
(For us to unwind) the more I see, the more I do
(Something like a phenomenon) Baby!
(Tellin your body to come along, but red lines blow away)

Topic: DOES GOD EXIST ?

Yes

Thanx, I was wondering when we would get back to the topic at hand?
I accept your YES but ask why?

and I ask, how do you KNOW?

Tom, I also checked a number of references, attempting to find something about 'red lines' but I too found nothing at all. Looks like our friend has found the possible evidence for a younger (or older!) universe and confused that with the well known red shift and then decided it was a conspiracy by some scientists! What a load of old rubbish from a conspiracy theorist. The answer is as simple as I have said.

yes Red Shift, but you can see the spectrums of red lines, blue lines, and now they claim Pink lines.


i said lines, but it is shift....it still is a RED LINE when viewing it within the spectrum.

AND, there are articles that are speaking about what i mentioned.


red lines/red shift...get over it, i still am saying it correctly and there are articles making same claims as i did to MK..

ummmm, you do realize the Red Shift do look like Red Lines in the Spectrum as they count the distances between each Red Shift.

i said it correctly just was using the WORD (LINE) instead of (SHIFT).

Tom,

you say God takes belief because He cannot be observed.
everywhere i look from what little bit concerning the Earth, our immediate Galaxy, the fact that just like Mathematics, PATTERNS enable us to understand we are surrounded by millions of other Galaxies.

then we examine the entire Universe the best way we can and it all adds up to Observation of God!!


have you ever wondered that Mathematically we can apply our theories, formulas, calculations, observe Patterns, and in the Oldest Book of the Bible, Job, around 8,000 years old on the Papyrus sacale, is God speaking about SCIENCE, MATHEMATICS, ENGINEERING, USING A TAPE MEASURE, UNITS OF MEASUREMENT.

GOD SPEAKS ABOUT THE LAWS OF PHYSICS BY CLAIMING THEY ARE INVISIBLE TO OUR EYES. HE EVEN REFERENCES THEM AS BEING PRINCIPALITIES AND INVISIBLE POWERS.



Mathematics is about as true as it gets, it does have a few bumps here and there. but generally, Mathematics is the Best suitable Solution for all we do, observe, calculate, build, repair, etc.

So Mathematics, like what God spoke to Job about, is the Perfect Method to measure distance from Moon to Earth, to the Sun, to the Constellations and beyond.

but how can our most PERFECT METHOD, Mathematics, fit the Universe and be able to calculate it by using the Language of Mathematics, IF THE UNIVERSE WAS JUST A BIG OLE ACCIDENT?

Mathematically, we are proving that by the Series of Patterns, the formations, the Flow of the Universe, and WHAT we can observe proves nothing is Random at all!!

EVERYTHING is a SOURCE to something else by DESIGN!!

we die and feed the whatever we are near when we decompose. Our bacterias are able to rejoin other Bacterias and formulate new colonies that feed plant life and the combination of them + water/sun makes it blossom.

Everything has a perfect Order to it, like a Design.

the only thing not in Order, are those within humanity who are mentally unstable.



But in All honesty, God is VERY EASY to Observe!!

You just don't know how to find and seek Him is all...

Yes, you're right, it did just happen. Get over it!

Seems to me that some people start by assuming an unprovable opinion as fact. From that, they bend the facts of life simply to try to make them fit with their opinion. If necessary, they might even include conspiracy theories to 'prove' their versaion of 'facts'.

Very sad.

My assumption is that scientists are people who try their very best, not to try to prove their pet theory, but to try to disprove it! They are honest people. Granted there is the odd 'black sheep' among them who look only at the evidence that seems to support their ideas, conveniently ignoring any evidence that appears to point in a different direction. This happened a hundred or more years ago but these days there is much competition and many people looking at each of the various theories. To suggest that non believers among scientists might try to 'hide' evidence suggests that religion is so weak that it needs to be justified by the believers to the non believers. This is a nonsense. People of faith that I know are quietly certain of their beliefs and have no need to justify anything to anyone else. Likewise scientists will have no need to justify their evidence in some attempt to twist it. All they do is honest reseach to try to find out what is happening in their particular field of research.

Gone are the days when a single person experiments in their own home or simple laboratory and finds something interesting. These days science involves large teams of people in specially equipped laboratories - the LHC at CERN being a particularly outstanding example.

I don't recall being taught at my Catholic school that 'god' claims that the laws of physics are invisible to our eyes. The exact opposite was taught. Physics is being discovered as we speak. It was being discovered during my years at that school and we all relished new discoveries when they happened.

To suggest that scientists are ignoring some evidence because it does not match with their belief system is putting the cart before the horse. Scientists are not people who start off with an assumption and then bend the facts when they don't appear to fit their theory. Instead, they modify their starting point and check again to see if they now have a better fit with observation.

I respectfully suggest that it is believers of god who start off with the unproven assumption that there is a god and then go on to try to find 'evidence' of that existence. That would make a mockery of true science and it is not possible that this would happen in todays world.

As I said before, new discoveries are constantly being made. The current 'best estimate' of the age of the universe is about 39 billion years. However recent discoveries have suggested that this figure might be too big - or it might be too small! Come back in a hundred years and we might have a more accurate estimate. Scientists continually evaluate potential new methods of making this measurement.

The doppler effect is well known and plays a vital part in helping understand this number. There is nothing new about the doppler effect!

iam_resurrected,
Wow, you throw assumptions like fact bombs.
Its cool, you are free to believe anything you want, makes no difference to what I understand about reality.
Its all good, at least to me?

There are many things I could debate and since the M2 DISCUSSION forms are a form of debate, while I acknowledge yer assertions, those assertions have not changed my own view.

This being said, with emphasis on you having your opinion and me having mine...


No, actually I didn't say that, you said that and credited it me, which is wrong.
What I said was:
Your God requires agreement and belief first. It is not able to be observed, tested and measured with reproducible results by independent observers.
It is my acknowledgement and acceptance that belief is needed without proof.
That is called faith, Is it not?


If it did, wouldn't everyone have the same summation?

I wonder if you understand what chaos is?
Perhaps I can simplify it for you...

As a relatively young intelligence contemplating reality, we designate certain things as chaos. Its that unpredictable series of events that happen over time. In chaos, our minds do not associate patterns to the actions of reality. It doesn't mean patterns don't exist, it only means we don't fully understand those patterns yet.
If we knew everything about everywhere, everywhen.. we would no longer have chaos. Since we don't, we see reality as chaotic, no decernable pattern of predictability.
Thus, chaos is us saying "We don't fully understand".


Actually, we can't.
There are many, many things in the Universe we cannot rectify with mathematics.
There are many things in the human psyche we can't rectify with mathematics and we have ourselves right here to observe, measure and test.
We "think" we know much more than we 'actually' know.


According to humans.
We are a reference pool of one.
Do this: Name one 'other' intelligent life form that uses mathematics to explain reality. You can't because we have not met them yet.


Perfect method for a species of merely 2 million years with established intelligence of a few thousand years.
How significant do you actually think we are?


Who said it was an accident?
I said it was random but certainly not an accident.
Accident, like I said, assumes there was an intent.


I agree.
It is a chain of events without a reason.
Like rain falling. Each drop strikes as it may without a guiding force, except gravity. Gravity is universally connected to mass.


Not sure what you have been seeing but chaos is evident all around me and it is certainly not a perfect order.


Proclaiming honesty implies that unless a proclamation is made, its a lie.
Be careful with that.


I sought for decades and tried to find Him. Thought I did but I was deluded.
The proof was smacking me constantly. That fantasy did not align with the reality I was experiencing.


MKgentleman,
A scientific mind also starts with a belief.
You believe an atom can be split.
You then work to prove it can be split.
Then you take that understanding and bring it to its fruition.
There is a reality example of your belief.

There are many things in science that have no reality fruition.
Things people accept as reality without proof or example.

The black hole is a good example. The black hole event horizon is another.
We have never been in a black hole or at the event horizon as most people think of it.

However, the Milky Way galaxy is circling a super-massive black hole (Sagittarius A). Our entire galaxy is trapped in an event horizon of this black hole. We are actually being 'pulled' onto it as we exist.

The event horizons are different things related to the gravitational pull of a singularity of massive size.
Light is the event horizon people associate but there are many different horizons, including gravity.

The fate of the Sun (Sol) and its planetary system (the solar system) will result in absorption to Sagittarius A.
The Sun (Sol) will be long dead by that time and our lil planet will be a frozen wasteland.

Andromeda will merge with the Milky Way and once the two super-massive singularities merge, it will create a new gravity event horizon with a higher tug force.
For some reason, most people are unable to put this together but the data supports it, rationally.

Religion does not rationally support understanding, only belief.

Some far distant cosmological decade from now, all matter will be forced onto super-super massive black holes. The motion of the Universe explains this.

If the Intent of creation is to make mega-massive black holes, it must be design.
However, to design such a thing into a creation makes no sense unless the motive is to lock up everything in gravity wells.

We are insignificant to the purpose of the Universe and religion fails again.




At 2mya, humans have not made a single galactic year
Modern humans, homo sapiens, have only been around about 800,000 years.
Insignificant time considering the 250MY galactic year.
We are mere infants.
Chances are likely, we won't even exist when the Sun (Sol) makes its next galactic year (based on the date of modern humans).


Religion needs belief compliance.
The questioning mind is bad for religion.
Religion wants you to accept and not question.

Mankind is inquisitive.
We can't help but question.
Religion tries to stifle our nature in favor of its doctrine.
Religion attempts to stifle much of our nature.
To the point many people refuse the idea that humans (people) are animals with animal drives and tendencies.

When we question, we get no rational answers yet when we question nature, we do.
Questioning reality promises no rewards or punishments.
Questioning religion promises rewards or punishment based on your belief.
Religion is designed to lead sheeple.
It functions best when nobody questions.
Its unnatural to what makes humans sapient.


Depending on the graphic you are looking at.
In reality, data streams never have a graphical representation.
Even the photos of Mars, the Moon and everything else is just a whole bunch of numbers which are used to create the graphics.
So they are not counting red lines.
They are looking at data and using that data to create a graphic.

Redshift is an idea that is used to explain inconsistencies in the data stream.
http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/db-perl/W3Browse/w3table.pl?tablehead=name%3Dgliese2mas&Action=More+Options
See ANY red lines?
Here is front page of the Gliese Catalog Stars with Accurate Coordinates and 2MASS Cross-Identifications (gliese2mas)
http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/db-perl/W3Browse/w3query.pl
See ANY red lines?

Many people profess to understand science but they are merely armchair scientists. Look at data streams like this all day and see if you can make heads or tails of it.
I certainly can't.

Yet some of these insane scientists can use this data to send a craft to Mars and beyond, accurately.
That is purpose and design and done by human minds.
According to you, insane human minds.
Perhaps that insanity you speak of with such conviction lies elsewhere?
Just sayin....

It's only a small quibble, Tom, but you say:

I don't agree that a scientific mind starts with a belief. If you don't know something you can't 'believe' it is, or might be, true.

I would say instead, that science starts with a theory, which says, "I have a theory. This *might* be true, it looks quite likely to me, so lets do some experiments to find out...." There cannot be belief until there is convincing evidence. When the atom was successfully split, observers could see what happened and people believed.

Just a small point.