I've watched a lot of science fiction TV shows and read my fair share of novels, mags and comics.
The idea has been explored in depth for many years now.
Kinda like the Drake Equation but for religion.

One thing they all have in common is the human capacity to fear the unknown.
This is because all the stories are written from human reference.
You don't even have to look off-planet to find species alien to us to figure out how common religion is to life.
How many plants or animals on this planet have religion?
What is the ratio to humans? How many species are there on Earth, 100 trillion? That would be a ratio of 100 trillion to one!

For some reason, people tend to use humans as the model for all life.
Aliens have not only human motives and actions, they often share our anatomy.
The queen alien lays the eggs, yet on this planet the male seahorse bears its offspring. In cartoons our children watch Mrs alligator has breasts, wears lipstick, a bikini. Its funny but it also sets a tendency in a child's mind that animals are just like them.
They then grow up and put clothing on dogs and treat them as people.
You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.

Plus, it goes even deeper into madness.
People treat inanimate objects as if they are alive and human.
"My car is mad at me"
"My computer doesn't feel good"

12 historians, 12 apostles, spooky
You say these dudes never met, and came from different place's and such
Maybe that's true
But maybe they had a common agenda somehow
Maybe they did meet, or have some sort of communication
I mean it's possible
I know some people from other countries
Maybe I could get 12 of them, to document the miracles I have performed with cheese bread and a heat source
In a couple of hundred years, these documents could be found
And people would hear, of how the kettle told me to boil it, and pour it's watery contents onto a teabag, to infuse this liquid, with it's tea like goodness
I could be revered, I could be god
Maybe I am god, and I just don't know it
Maybe I'm moving in ways so mysterious, I cannot comprehend just how mysterious and god like I am, as I sip tea
This thread maybe found, and offered as Proof

LOL, yer freakin funny dude!
Thanx fer that.

But...what you say actually has merit.
Its what we do.
We design a history around the victors and never actually know the real reality as it happened.
We assume so much from the writings of history yet fail to realize it is only part of the story.
At some distant future, the instructions for microwaving an instant meal could be the focus of an entire religion.
Well, maybe not an instant meal but we have plenty of written word anyone could make of anything.
Ever seen the movie Galaxina (1980), its a parody that includes a future religion that worships Harley Davidson. They even chant. LOL.

God is entirely of your own making.
If you need it to solve problems, it will.
If you need it to make you feel better about reality, it will.
It has the power you give it.

some peeps view God as the Religion they are involved in, but in Religion, you must always be perfect, happy, the sun is always bright and shining, etc.....in other words, VOID of Reality.

i view God as Son to a Father:
as a human being, i am the best i can be.
yes, i can improve and be better in mentality, physicality, emotionally. but overall, as one human being to another, i am wreck and mess like everyone else. i may have strengths where others are weak and vice a versa, but the "Beauty" of a Relationship between Father and Son is I don't have to pretend to be a facade, i don't have to hide who I am like so many do within their "Religions."

i tell my Father, this Pisses Me OFF and fix it!!

this is the kicker:

i then went on doing my own thing for days and the thing I asked my Father for, GOT DONE!!

not by me, by anyone i know, or any human because no one else knew what i went to God about.



you have the right idea about God not fully caring you even exist and all....but it is phrased differently in my view:

God only cares that I recognize Him (for existence purpose of Faith/only)!! I cannot believe i Recognize God until I first belief out of Faith He exists. This is the only point that matters.

being a human is being a human with mistakes, bad choices, some lie, some murder, some kill out of being obligated (some out of self defense),some steal, some commit all kinds of bad things while others are trying to be good.

being a good/bad person is important only that you realize treating others like you want to be treated is simply the act of "Respect."

God knows we are ruthless if forced and gentle if able.

My God and Father is not standing over me with His fingers pointed down at me. He is standing there with His arms open wide.

this is how i see God...

i only quoted/mentioned those 12 due to their influences in other areas of our secular lives from their examples of Greco-Roman Cultures.

there were Arab, Jewish, all of the local Nations of the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia besides those Greeks and Romans who have impacted our today's Society.

I get what yer sayin...


By Father I assume you mean yer God.
From what I understand about Gods, they don't like being told anything.
They tell you.
Just for a second, consider those things might get done without a God intervention.
Just sayin, could it happen from some other way.
Occam's Razor


Recognition in humans is a tricky thing.
It usually involves having direct contact with someone long enough to form associations.
Its impossible to recognize someone you have never met.
You can recognize what others tell you about them but you can never be sure until you actually meet them.
This happens with online dating quite often.
You think you know someone, till you meet them and realize they are not what you thought.


Good and bad is relative to the observer.
What may be good in one's eyes may be bad in another's.
The only line you can draw is the line you establish.
Lets take a mass murder.
For most people, they are bad. However, when considering overpopulation and what it does to the planet, the economy and the species, it might be thought of as a good thing.
Its all relative to the observer.
There is no law in the Universe that says life is precious, we say it and think it is universal. In reality, the Universe will kill you. Won't even have remorse about it. We think that is cold but it is reality.


I have no problem with how you see God.
Why is it so many have a problem with how I see God?

Remember, this is OMO
(One Man's Opinion).

Some years ago, I asked a believer what he would do if it could somehow be proven to him that there was no such thing as 'god'. His reply was interesting: he said he would kill one of his neighbours who he found intensely irritating. I asked if he truly had no internal moral code (as I have) that says it's wrong to take another life and he assured me he has no such internal code, his entire knowledge of right and wrong came from his biblical teaching. So, belief in a deity does perhaps after all have a use - it prevents a possibly unstable person from doing anything he wants to do, assuming he can get away with it.

I'll sit back now and enjoy the popcorn while I wait for our deluded friend to share his opinion with us!

I had the same convo but slightly different with different results.
I asked what would happen if his God were proved to be reality.
His pride was obvious.
He gathered an air of invincibility.
Nothing else in reality changed except he felt justified by my supposition.
It was then I realized there was something seriously wrong with the mindset.
It was actually very scary, the light in his eyes.

You can build them up or tear them down. Reality always levels everything out.
No matter with our without the God of a religion, reality always levels the playing field.
No matter how much you believe reality seems to always get in the way.
It might be the death of a loved one or the loss of a great love or the everyday pain ya feel.
Reality always gets in the way.
The reason is because reality just is.
Reality requires nothing and expects nothing from you.
It just is.

If you need a reason, something to make sense of it, religion will tell you what you want.
Reality doesn't care, it just is.
No matter how you try to justify something, reality gets in the way.
You can make up anything you want to comfort you but reality remains no matter what.
Yes or no, reality always has the last word.
If you boil it all down, you meet reality.

If you are one to need a reason, religion might give it to you in some form or another.
My husband was taken from me: reality; he died.
My wife left me for someone else: reality; things just happen (shidt happens).
Shidt happens in a chaotic Universe.
Sometimes it is to your benefit and sometimes it is not.
God had nothing to do with it.

Many ,might think they have nothing but in reality they have a lot.
If you don't have enough food to feed your family and some outreach group led by someone religious minded steps in and feeds your family, it wasn't God that fed your family.
It was the people associated with the outreach group.

We credit God with many things that have nothing to do with God.
We credit God with unknown forces that happen in our lives that occur in reality from actions of other people.
Not God but God is credited and the faithful see God in action.

There are certain things in reality that test your faith.
There are certain things in reality that reinforce your faith.
The bottom foundation is always reality.
Some just choose not to look at that level.

In my life, I experienced many forces which I attributed to God's influence.
I look back at them.
Each had a foundation in reality.
At the time, it did make my faith stronger.
Till I started considering the chain of events that resulted in my so-called miracle.
Reality ruined it for me.
Reality was very hard to accept.
Reality made me accept existence as it is, not how I was taught it should be.
A very difficult thing to do.

Once I started accepting reality as it is, my stress and fear diminished significantly.
Stuff still happens (chaotic universe) but now I have a grasp on what is real and can deal with it all in a sane and useful way.
I can take real measures to head of many of the problems I used to have to deal with.
God takes care of His chosen few is no longer clouding my mind.
Reality and what happens in reality makes sense now.
It lightens my mood because I am better able to deal with reality instead of trusting in a God to do for me.

I understand how others might be locked into the religious dogma.
I have no problem how you believe, reality doesn't either.
This is OMO.

Think about what you wrote.
I came to expect more from you.
It is typical religious confrontation.
Are you adopting the banter of your foe?

Where is your objectivity and acceptance?
Religious people have a problem with acceptance.
The same quality you now demonstrate?

Acceptance may not mean you are accepting their view but more of a you are allowing them the right to show their views.
If you belittle or unduly poke fun at another for their own belief, you are doing exactly what you complain they do.

However, when you have reality as a basis, there is no need for confrontational banter.
Your remark makes me wonder just how sure you are of your own point.
Granted, you might want to continue the discussion and are baiting someone unable to resist such lures but they will respond because they have to.

We already discussed your position on the topic.
I tend to agree with some of it.
I also contend to acknowledge my belief in a GOD.
My God is not like the Gods of different religions.
It requires nothing from me and I require nothing from it.
If I am free to express my beliefs, others should also be free to express theirs.
So, the only thing I get from your statement, it is a baiting prompt.

Tom, I related a story, can't see anything wrong in a little tease. I don't think I take life as seriously as you do. I was sent to a Catholic school but all the religious stuff associated with that just went over my head. It was not taught to me in a way that left me believing in any of it. I guess I just thought, "That's OK" and then forgot about it. Some of the boys got a place at that school because they wanted to join the priesthood. They were always bottom of the class and only present at that school because of their stated desire to become a priest.

Thinking back, I guess I might have formed the opinion that they were after the easy life, didn't matter if they took exams or not. The rest of us were focussed on passing the exams necessary to get into university. Thus maths and physics were interesting to me. Understanding them was essential to getting a good exam result and thus into uni. But the priest hopefuls didn't have to do any work, as far as I could see. Their future was assured. They didn't even have to try as they knew they would get an easy job for life!

I left school thinking that religious stuff was not for me. I never had any of the experiences you have mentioned. I have always thought that life 'just is'. It would never occur to me to ascribe an event to some imaginary deity. After all, if the deity is imaginary then by definition, it cannot be responsible for anything that happens, good or bad. I have therefore never had the feeling that certain things test my faith - because despite the best efforts of my school teachers, I have never had a faith. That sort of thing just slips off me like the proverbial water off a duck's back.

I accept it is a bit naughty of me to tease the deluded, but I have a mixture of sadness and amusement when I read their rants about such things as what translation of a forgotten language is the most accurate. The more annoyed they get over people with slightly different beliefs, the more bemused I become. Why it is so very important to them? Why does it matter so much? I just don't get it.

I've already said that I agree with you in almost every way. When you say, "It just is" I totally agree, but I find it confusing to use the word god because that word has an accepted meaning, particularly in the context of this thread. Your first answer could have been, "Yes, but not what you believe in" and so my first answer could have been, "No, there is no such thing, it is all myths and fairty tales for the deluded". We could both have stopped there but this thread continues because we both find other things to say.

It's interesting what you say about proof of the existence of god. Next time I see this person I will ask that question and make a note of his reply, for sharing. It will likely be next month before we get the chance for another conversation.

I am quite sure of my own point. There is nothing until there is proof of something. The idea of black holes and dark matter would have been laughed at some years ago, but are now accepted parts of reality. The more we discover, the more we learn about how little we already know. I have a curious mind and love to read about the latest discoveries. I hope one day we will be able to meet beings from another planet and I hope it will be possible to communicate with them. From the point of view of this topic, I know that when communication is established the question of deity will come up sooner or later. Maybe they will have a deity belief which of course will be totally different to ours. Ours is formed entirely by men (and not women) and theirs would be formed entirely by their race. Perhaps they will find it impossible to even understand what we're talking about. At times like this I really do wish I could continue living for several hundred years more as conversations with other being could become reality sometime soon. The speed with which scientific discovery accelerates is phenomenal and surely it can't be long before we can do such things. But sadly I think it highly unlikely to happen in my lifetime.

I don't think my last post was a typical religious confrontation. Those are situations in which someone takes many paragraphs to go over one little point of difference from another believer. All I said was I'll wait for the inevitable reply from a believer. I guess I was thinking of the need for capital letters (considered rude in e-mail etiquette) and bold type to make it even more important looking. Quite unnecessary! Some of the posts on other threads have been very rude in comparison to anything anyone has said on this thread.

Maybe I won't wait. Maybe I will phone this man to get the answer to the question you mentioned.

By the way, the reference to popcorn was used in another thread and it seemed amusing and appropriate to me. Fact is, I don't care for popcorn anyway, it was only an expression. Please don't take me too literally, I am too laid back for that. I just enjoy life with no thought whatsoever as to what god is, or might be. The whole idea is meaningless for me, and always has been, even when I was at school, learning to read passages from the bible and stuff like that. It was just something I did at school because someone in authority told me I had to, so I just said OK and got on with it. The intended 'inner meaning' just never got through to me. I only post here because those who are believers puzzle me. It's very strange that intelligent adults actually take this stuff so seriously. I can't get my head round it, so maybe my tease is a prompt to get some more of those capital letters and boldface type that we're used to by now. I just like to read it all and absorb, even though I do feel like a duck sometimes!

LOL, OMO, no worries, your statement just struck me is all.
Ya see, my experience when relating my version of God, I am corrected constantly and told I am wrong.
Your statement just struck me wrong.
It makes me think of the same stuff I get barraged with by religious fanatics.
My response was reactive instead of progressive and I apologize for that.
I fell into the assumption trap.

Thank you for taking the time to express yourself towards my reaction.
I honor that and acknowledge some of your points as expressed but have a bit an issue with others and since those minor conflicts are not about the thread topic, I won't respond to them.

On my use of God, we did cover that.
As to my stance, we also covered that.
I suspect your motive is to offer rebuttal to anyone not in alignment to your beliefs.
This is a common thing everywhere.

The important thing I stress...and I stress it often, is the fact that others may have a different opinion than I.
I don't actually see this as a bad thing.
Frankly, I enjoy discussing other's take on God or No God.
It opens my mind.
I gain much in how other humans think about things.
I try to identify those thought processes and look to see if they are in me.
I know I don't have it all figured out (probably never will) but reading others comments helps me figure out where I stand with my belief against the common person.

I'm weird.
I've been weird a very long time.
My brain is weird in a different way than 'normal'.
Even your response helped me understand more.

You can take this anyway you want.
I see traits in your response similar in nature to those who defend their religion.
Its not necessarily a 'bad' thing but it is noticeable.
It aligns with many others in multiple ways.
We are all mortal humans.
We will be till we die, then we will just be dead.
All I glean from my interactions on forums such as M2 will be lost when I die.

If I choose to use the word God to describe my understanding of the unknown, it is you and anyone else that attaches meaning to it.
Only I know the true nature of my belief.
I could call it Pickle or I could call it Numdabutt, I choose God because that is the closest approximation to what I see.
Its not "your" God, its mine and nobody else on this planet can know "Exactly" what I mean.

So yes, to me there is a "God" but not the God you think about.
My problem is nobody will let me express this without trying to substitute their own idea of God.
This is the meat of the issue.
The other is the fact that you initiated a possible confrontation with someone that does not believe as you.
A truly open mind would not do such a thing.
I know because I have been baited like that many times.

Now, for anyone else debating on participating in this discussion, Go For It.
I may offer up alternative ideas but I believe everyone has the right to express their own beliefs, just like I do.

Indeed, it is me and perhaps everybody else who attaches more or less the same meaning to that word. If I say 'chair' you will think of something we sit on. Most people would think the same. If you point to what most people call a table and then announce that you call that thing a chair, it would surely cause confusion, as everyone would think the wrong thing. Call a chair a chair, a table a table, a spade a spade and 'God' what most people would understand by that - some sort of invisible deity, details differ but everyone would get the general idea.

Just sayin'

who do y'all think is saving us all the time till now from all the evil spirits?

A chair is still a chair, even when there's no one sittin' there
But a chair is not a house and a house is not a home
When there's no one there to hold you tight
And no one there you can kiss goodnight

a chair is still a chair, a song by, Luther Vandross , though I know it by a reggae version, by Sugar Minott

Tom, you say: "My husband was taken from me: reality; he died"

One of my friends lost her faith when her husband died. She asks, "Why was he taken from me?" unable to accept that everyone dies and that day was his day.A very sad reason for abandoning the faith she had for many years. You can't reason with someone like that. Telling her that we will all die one day would only product the question, "But why today?".

Another friend lost her cat. She spoke with her priest and the stupid man promised that he would pray and God would return her cat. What a stupid promise to make! Either th cat was run over by a car or it just ran away, but that friend also lost her faith when the 'promise' made by her priest failed to come true.

These two friends had what I call an 'upbringing' - one in which they were told that is how life is. But when tested, they both found it just didn't work.

In my case there never was any 'truth' to believe in, despite the best efforts of those in my Catholic school.

i understand your claim by not being accepted by your views. in a sense, i somehow think i see God in like terms as You, but i also believe the differences exist in the idealisms of..."it's in the form of something personal, not evasive."

i see God as being accessible and not just is aware of my existence, but is concerned over it.
^
You seem to view it just opposite in blank stark reality.

If I say I am going to sit on my "chair", you have no idea what I am referring to. You might 'think' you know but you are very likely to be wrong.
Imagine me sitting on my chair.

It could be a nice comfortable arm chair.
It could be a sofa or loveseat.
It could be a bar stool.
It could be a metal folding chair.
It could be a wooden folding chair.
It could be a dinner table chair.
It could be a broken antique chair.
It could be an Ikea modern art chair.
It could be a chair shaped like a hand.

It ALSO could be
A toilet,
A wooden box,
A newspaper dispenser box,
A safe,
A pillow,
A stoop,
A railing,
A motorcycle seat on a cement block,
A cement block,
A stack of bricks,
A counter top,
A car seat,
A tailgate,
A railroad rail
or
any number of things I might decide to call "my chair".

As soon as I mention 'chair', you immediately put me in the chair of your own choosing. However, the chair you choose may not be my chair.

So, just like you have no idea what my chair is, you have no idea what my God is but I assure you, its not the chair you choose and it also isn't the God you choose.
Its My chair and My God.
Try to wrap your head around this.

Reason for edit: grammar & spelling

there are no two people who agree on a same Deity could ever be able to view it the same even if they both had same guidelines and directions.

that is a given so your tangent is at best, comical...oh chair and God...

for a person to accept the idea of a Force unseen, in Control of the behind the Scenes, and be labelled as Creator/God, that person can only believe as such from their specific Viewing and point of Believing.

the idea of who God is to ME, could NEVER be perfectly described by anyone, even like Believers.

that is just an automatic given IN THIS DISCUSSION!!

My entire Immediate Family (Mother-Father-Sister-Myself) Members are/were all Like Believers.

We lived SAME HOME
ate SAME FOODS
had SAME INTERESTS
the list is endless here of our Commonalities we share and are the SAME...

but yet, not a Single One of Us, SEE GOD the SAME way and we have enough LIKES that we should see God Similar.

BUT we DON'T!!

so, it is a GIVEN!!