See this is what is hard for me....because it's harder to phantom my God not being real....How can I deny a God that has directly told me he is real....Who has shown me over and over that it is so. This in no way means that anyone has to believe it. That is your choice......But for me it is not a choice...he has taken situation after situation and proved that he is real.

I also like many times have used this senerio

Your born
you grow up
you go to school
your graduate
get a job
get married
have kids
All though wonderful so wonderful
then you die.

Does that make any rational sense.

And what about all those near death experiences where people have seen the light....they have seen angels themselves......Explain that one.....there to me, myself and I is more to life then what we just know to be.

See again putting label on it all.....

If the Bible is a myth to you then so be it.....


But it is not to me.....so does that mean I am not entitled to my beleifs?

I have total understanding for me.....for and from God.....so what else can I do. If GOD came down right now and wrote on each and everyone's computer

I AM THE LIVING GOD....I WAS, AM, AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

Then blew up all the computers.

then everyone would come back and what?

So if that was your point why didn't you just say so?
People live in accordance to their beliefs. If their beliefs change, their approach to life will probably change too.

When I went from agnostic to a belief in spiritual life after death, I did change my approach just a little. I realized that I must accept responsibility not for just this one life, this one fleeting moment, but for the entire span of the universe... because suddenly I realized that life or existence may very well be eternal.

But my approach to this single life time, as an agnostic, was what opened the door to my spirituality. By placing my attention on the present life, the present moment, I slipped into a state of awareness that is eternal. It was the eternal NOW.

Live for the moment..... forever.

JB

Feral, I am not saying there ISN'T any after this life, as in totally locked down, no exceptions, narrow closed view... I am only asking to play a little game for a minute and consider, what if?

Deb the brain is both electrical and organic. Modern medicine can explain the natural phenomena that occurs when one dies for a short period of time or is revived from a near death experience. This is why the common themes that we hear are such as "floating, feelings of warmth, seeing life flash before the eyes, bright lights that are strobing, illuminated tunnels or feelings of elation." It is all explainable based on how our brains function and operate.

I guess because I arrived at that point, through asking myself the same questions... and asking it of others...

JB... do you prefer to discover things for yourself, or be told flat out what is and what isn't?

I don't have a belief to be perfectly honest about it. I do have a tendency to "believe" that reincarnation is the most likely of all the spiritual ideas. Therefore if I choose to believe in a spirit world then I'd definitely need to beleive in reincarnation over all the others.

If that belief turned out to be wrong and when I died I came face-to-face with some egotistical judgmental demon, then I guess I'd have to deal with that nightmare at the time it came to pass. In truth, I would refuse to bow down and worship the demon anyway, so I guess I'd have to suffer its immature and uncontrollable wrath.

I prefer to believe that if there is a God it's nicer than me. So I just can't imgaine God being such a jerk. But then again, I suppose anything is possible. I certainly wouldn't base my life on the belief that God is a jerk.

So from a spiritual point of view I can only win unless God is a jealous egotistical demon who lusts to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. But if that's what God is truly like then nobody will win, not even the idiots who choose to serve the demon, so I won't be alone in Heartbreak Hotel. There will obviously be a lot of really decent loving souls just like myself there. They will all be suffering the pain and agony of discovering that God is actually Satan himself.

In terms of belief, I don't know what to believe. Atheists could be right. Maybe there is no spirit world and we just make up that whole idea to avoid facing the idea that we just die when we die. However, if atheism is true then dying won't mean diddy squat because you'll never even know that you died.

However, to answer your question more sincerely, I think I have been living my life under a belief in atheism. I don't live it like I believe in karma.

I was just thinking about this recently. My house is a mess. And I keep putting off cleaning it up figuring that maybe owl get lucky and die and then I won't have to clean it up.

But then I started thinking about reincarnation. What if it's true? And what if karma is true?

Well, then if I die with a messy house I'll be born into a messy house in the next life around (which would mean that I'd have sloppy parents who don't take care of things).

So now I'm thinking that I should clean up my house before I die so that in the next life I can be born into a nice clean environment and have parents who care about things.

So I've started cleaning the place up.

I insist on being my own final authority. I evaluate all information and decide for myself. To truly learn or know a thing it must be discovered or experienced for yourself.

If someone tells me "flat out" what is and what isn't, I would of course want all the details so I could evaluate how they arrived at that conclusion, then I would make my own decision whether or not to consider it as truth.

JB

grrrrrrr but how can I do that.......I can't......

Let me see if I can explain this another way......If you know that something is so so so so real......because your were shown then how could you just do a 360 degree turn just because people say play the game for a minute deb....It's not going to happen ever. And like I said before turn that around...And for all the peeps that don't believe if they suddenly saw Christ come and knew without a shadow of a doubt who he was......Would you deny him still....would it take your death or would you say....well **** howdy it is real and forgive me Lord.

It to me is hurtful when people say myth and God to me, it is mean to say I am closed minded because I don't think as you. I am what I am and can only answer according to what "I" believe to be truth. And that truth was shown to me over and over. To deny Christ would be worse then to deny you.

So your saying all is explained.....this is just not the case....there are many many many cases that are not explained. There are medical cases that people should of died and they are healed.....Even where the doctors can't explain it. So as much as I see what your saying Krimsa it's all not as black and white as you all think it is.

I can tell you right now I would still deny his existence to his face if he was anything like what I have heard described to me on these forums. I want nothing to do with a mean, judgmental, oppressive, hateful, jealous being. Who wants to deal with that for all eternity is what I would like to know?

I would really like to thinks so. In fact we might even be better. If you think of all the wars that would never be fought over religious differences. Wouldn't that be ironic?

The thing is Feral, all those "near death experiences" and seeing the light and seeing "angels" do not prove that Christianity is the truth.

All they prove is that something exists beyond our physical understanding, or that we don't know all we think we know about the human brain, Out of body experiences, life after death etc.

Even miracles do not prove or disprove any particular religion is the right one. Miracles happen outside of Christianity all the time, and near death experiences happen to people of other faiths and even to atheists. It does not prove any religion is true or not true.

You just happen to be involved with a particular religion and you see a miracle happen and your faith and belief system give credit to your God and your belief system.

The very same thing happened to me when I was involved with Eckankar. I gave credit to any and all miracles and visions to my religion and my Living ECK master and to some other Eck masters that turned out to be fictitious characters.

BUT like you, I knew that I knew that I knew that it was the only path to God and I thought everyone should be on it. I saw visions of fictional characters! It was all created by my belief and my own imagination.

We create our own truth and reality with our belief and with our minds.

I suppose that is what I have learned from it all. That is why creating our own experience and the Law of Attraction has become my new belief system basically.

JB

And that my sweets is totally your choice. God is judgemental do it your way then ok......God is not oppressive nor hateful....that is man's job alone. God is a jealous God....but only in the aspect of worshiping false idols.....He gave freewill to man for a reason...and this is exactly the reason...If you don't come to him of your own freewill....then by golly that is your choice....I can only speak for me and my life.....and how having God in it makes "me complete" I want for nothing, I am truly a happy human being. I don't question where God leads me because I will know the purpose when he is ready to show me. I know God leads everything about my life....and for me this is a beautiful thing....the more control I give away the more I am rewarded for that trust in him. If you guys don't want that so be it.

Again JB I say to you.......I don't care about the religion aspect....when I speak about any of this...as you should well know by know...It's a relationship with God, Jesus Christ and myself. I don't shove anything down anyhones throat I expect the same courtesy.

And yes JB their is something beyond the physical...I believe it's the Lord, God, and many many Angels. Just as you believe as you do. Again I can only speak for myself I thought I was dead last Thursday when my car died probably on the worse free possible in all of Los Angeles. The Lord spoke as clear as a bell....Your fine, help is coming and trust in me....So what JB deny it......say that it was just a delusion because of what I was going through....Not a chance....It happen I was there.....I was aware of absolutely everything that was going on. I was led by God and even the Highway Patrol said everything I did was just exactly right.

So for me to think hmmmmmm he may not exist, I may just die and turn into compose....I think not sweets.

Please please please take religion out of the equation at least when speaking to me...Of course miracles happen to people of no faith...and 90% of the time it leads them into a relationship with Christ. And I do believe that miracles happen to all for a reason. But it's God's reasons and in his way and on his terms.




I said my peace and I am done.....I am not going to battle about my beliefs...I answered the original OP for me....that is all I can do.

The Will is inherent in all things just as soul is. Soul is always free. The Will is always and naturally "free."

The will is the power of self direction.

It is not a simple and limited choice between accepting Jesus as God or not. I wish people (Christians) would stop telling this outrageous lie and learn what the will is all about.

Christians here this: You do not own God and you do not own the Will, nor does your concept of God give or refuse to give "Freedom" to the Will for the purpose you claim.

You own "sin" and you own "evil" and you can have those terms and use them any way you wish. But don't think you own the Will or God. You don't.

From a Christian perspective I can say this...we believe from personal experience, so this question would be moot.

We know without a doubt that God does indeed exist, is real & true to His word.

So what does that tell you? To reverse the question? Yu think?

It tells us that you have no imagination.

I guess it won't matter to you if your belief is untrue and when you're dead your just dead. You won't know the difference anyway.

But I believe that if you believe it hard enough then you can make it true. You will create it in your own mind and in your own reality and when you die you certainly go to heaven and see Jesus because you believe it.

That is the power of belief and creating your own experience.

So for you unbelievers, you better find something to believe in or else you may wake up after death in a vast wilderness of nothing if that is what you believe.

And you will have created it.

So learn to use your imagination and your belief to create the next world or there may not be a next world for you.

And don't even think of Hell.

JB

I don't have to have the imagination to believe anything but what God says...I won't be decieved anymore by the lies & tricks of the devil.

If you want to be decieved that's your choice...don't try to denegrate mine because I KNOW what I believe in. I don't have to wonder who or what God is anymore...I know because He reveals Himself to the faithful. It IS finished!

AMEN!