I've seen that happen so often and recently I saw you ask the same question like 5 times and no one answered. I really wanted to, but I was not part of the discussion and I had not read it from the start. I only kept watching because I wanted to see the answer - which you never got.

And no one got an answer from me either.
BECAUSE.....I don't have one.

Kat

Even that would be considered an answer. I can appreciate that answer actually.

Some people just don't want to admit that they don't have the answer.

They just say, you need to take this magic mushroom and then you will see god.

I mean, they say, you need to go to a spirit filled church and let the Holy Spirit possess you and become born again and then and only then you will understand everything cause you will be high on Jesus Christ like we are.

JB

No offense intended scatter, I can tolerate ignorance all day long, we ALL are ignorant of many things, especially me!! What i have an extremely hard time with is stupidity. And not being opened to other ways of concluding things spoken of. Being able to see more than what's been "taught" to you. a real simple test of whats spoken of here would be to put this before a young person of average intelligence and ask them 3 questions such as:

1) in these passages of the bible, whom is christ speaking to, who is the intended audience?

2) the things that jesus speaks of are meant for whom?

3) when is the time period in which all of what jesus tells his audience will come to be?


i believe that any one with even common sense would answer thus

1) the audience was the desciples

2) the things he speaks of are meant for the disciples

3) he says its for "THIS GENERATION" to be a part of as well as the disciples.

this holds true of jesus' words through out the bible when speaking of his coming (PAROUSIA)even to Caiaphas the pharisee

The Rapture


Are you Pre, Mid, or Post? If you don’t know how to answer that question, you’re probably a Catholic. Most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals know that these words are shorthand for pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation. The terms all refer to when the rapture is supposed to occur.


The Millennium



In Revelation 20:1–3, 7–8, we read, "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while. . . . And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth."

The period of a thousand years, the writer tells us, is the reign of Christ, and the thousand-year period is popularly called the millennium. The millennium is a harbinger of the end of the world, and Revelation 20 is interpreted in three ways by conservative Protestants. The three schools of thought are called postmillennialism, amillennialism, and premillennialism. Let’s take a look at them.


Postmillennialism



According to Loraine Boettner in his book The Millennium (he also wrote the seriously defective anti-Catholic book Roman Catholicism), postmillennialism is "that view of last things which holds that the kingdom of God is now being extended in the world through the preaching of the gospel and the saving work of the Holy Spirit, that the world eventually is to be Christianized, and that the return of Christ will occur at the close of a long period of righteousness and peace, commonly called the millennium."

This view was popular with nineteenth-century Protestants, when progress was expected even in religion and before twentieth-century horrors were tasted. Today few hold to it, except such groups as Christian Reconstructionists, an outgrowth of the conservative Presbyterian movement.

Commentators point out that postmillennialism is to be distinguished from the view of theological and secular liberals who envision social betterment and even the kingdom of God coming through purely natural, rather than supernatural, means. Postmillennialists, however, argue that man is incapable of building a paradise for himself; paradise will only come about by God’s grace.

Postmillennialists also typically say that the millennium spoken of in Revelation 20 should be understood figuratively and that the phrase "a thousand years" refers not to a fixed period of ten centuries, but to an indefinitely long time. For example, Psalm 50:10 speaks of God’s sovereignty over all that is and tells us that God owns "the cattle on a thousand hills." This is not meant to be taken literally.

At the millennium’s end will come the Second Coming, the general resurrection of the dead, and the last judgment.

The problem with postmillennialism is that Scripture does not depict the world as experiencing a
period of complete (or relatively complete) Christianization before the Second Coming. There are numerous passages that speak of the age between the First and Second Comings as a time of great sorrow and strife for Christians. One revealing passage is the parable of the wheat and the weeds (Matt. 13:24–30, 36–43). In this parable, Christ declares that the righteous and the wicked will both be planted and grow alongside each other in God’s field ("the field is the world," Matt. 13:38) until the end of the world, when they will be separated, judged, and either be thrown into the fire of hell or inherit God’s kingdom (Matt. 13:41–43). There is no biblical evidence that the world will eventually become totally (or even almost totally) Christian, but rather that there will always be a parallel development of the righteous and the wicked until the final judgment.


Amillennialism



The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.

Amillennialists also believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth until the end. The tension that exists on earth between the righteous and the wicked will be resolved only by Christ’s return at the end of time. The golden age of the millennium is instead the heavenly reign of Christ with the saints, in which the Church on earth participates to some degree, though not in the glorious way it will at the Second Coming.

Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints.

They explain that, although the world will never be fully Christianized until the Second Coming, the millennium does have effects on earth in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by hindering the preaching of the gospel (Rev. 20:3). They point out that Jesus spoke of the necessity of "binding the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house by rescuing people from his grip (Matt. 12:29). When the disciples returned from a tour of preaching the gospel, rejoicing at how demons were subject to them, Jesus declared, "I saw Satan fall like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Thus for the gospel to move forward at all in the world, it is necessary for Satan to be bound in one sense, even if he may still be active in attacking individuals (1 Pet. 5:8).

The millennium is a golden age not when compared to the glories of the age to come, but in comparison to all prior ages of human history, in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness. Today, a third of the human race is Christian and even more than that have repudiated pagan idols and embraced the worship of the God of Abraham.


Premillennialism



Third on the list is premillennialism, currently the most popular among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (though a century ago amillennialism was). Most of the books written about the End Times, such as Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth, are written from a premillennial perspective.

Like postmillennialists, premillennialists believe that the thousand years is an earthly golden age during which the world will be thoroughly Christianized. Unlike postmillennialists, they believe that it will occur after the Second Coming rather than before, so that Christ reigns physically on earth during the millennium. They believe that the Final Judgment will occur only after the millennium is over (which many interpret to be an exactly one thousand year period).

But Scripture does not support the idea of a thousand year span between the Second Coming and the Final Judgment. Christ declares, "For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done" (Matt. 16:27), and "[w]hen the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . . And they [the goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:31–32, 46).


The Rapture



Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.

But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).


What’s the Catholic Position?



As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).


Spinning Wheels?



Many spend much time looking for signs in the heavens and in the headlines. This is especially true of premillennialists, who anxiously await the tribulation because it will inaugurate the rapture and millennium.

A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).


NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

SOURCE: http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

You go ahead and think that.....I know different.

thats why thr pretersist view holds more weight, they teach "ALL" has taken plce by AD 70, this fits christian theology better than a millenial or any of the other orthodox theologies out there.

You see Feralcatlady, that is what destroys your credibility. Saying that you know different. You don't know different, you only believe different.

Yes, you have had plenty of miracles in your life and some wondrous things happened in your personal reality and you gave full credit for them to your god. But all of those things could be explained in any number of ways, particularly in my world view of them.

But you believe in yours, and that is fine and okay by me, but you lose people when you say you KNOW.

You don't know. Nobody knows. They only THINK THEY KNOW.

If a person says they know something that cannot be known, then they truly appear to be delusional to others.

Admit that you believe differently, but admit that you don't know, then others will respect you more. People who claim to know, are unreasonable people, and it is pointless to converse with them because they are so certain they are right they do not look at anything objectively. So to a reasonable person, they appear to be a hopeless cause. No reason to debate anything with them because their ears are plugged and they are shut off from all but their own view of reality.

JB

Jesus, the same yesterday today and tomorrow, tribo.

The Holy Spirit speaks to us in this time.

where is that in your argument?

You leave Him out.

You suppose that Jesus was only taLKING TO THE DISCIPLES.
not!

wHEN pAUL CAME, pETER WAS ASTONISHED AT THE FACT THAT THE gENTILES IN rOME WERE GETTING THE hOLY sPIRIT AND WERE IN THE FAITH AT pAUL'S PREACHING.

yeah, I know, caplock key LOL

Peter was miffed. He got it eventually. And he had the Holy Spirit and still was in need of learning.

Who taught him? Paul or the Holy Spirit through Paul's witness.?

At least he admitted that the Holy Spirit was leading the way forward, unlike you and your miffed preterists.

Start over.

you are ludicrous and speaking of things you know nothing about.

Time to sit down and quietly pray, tribo, or find a new game.

nope, tribo is proselytizing heresy.

No one shares things they don't believe.

He ardently defends it.

But , continue on excusing it as benevolent and deseminated enlightenment.

It is no different for you.

You subscribe to defending him.

you are all so confused and choose to wander aimlessly throughout these threads playing advocates of truth and yet you all commit yourselves to nothing.

It is just wind in the trees. It is the leaves you hear, not the wind.

But you maintain the the sound is the wind.

The breath of God is much more coherent.

respire, won't you.?

There are quite a few people who think we are playing some trick on them...or something.

Paul persecuted Christians until God got him on the road to Damascus. We all know what happened there.

Tribo my sweet in order to hear you must listen.....in order to understand you must take the blinders off.......For you know not what you speak.....

The most coveted and contested property in all Israel is the temple mount. In 1967 at the victorious culmination of the 6 day war, Israel captured the temple mount. For the first time in over 2,300 years, Israel again had control of the holiest site in Judaism. Despite Israel's incredible victory of the 6 day war and their miraculous recovery of the land where the first and second temple once stood, the Israeli government turned over authority of the temple mount to the Moslems. Will they always control it? The prophet Daniel 9:27 is specific about the future of the temple mount in Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [a] In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

It was not valid to expect the Tribulation to occur in the year 1000, or any year between 70AD to 1948. The State of Israel did not exist. The end time prophecy of Daniel concerning the reinstated Jewish sacrifice can not be fulfilled by events taking place anywhere else but the Jerusalem Temple Mount. Apocalyptic prophecy simply could not have been fulfilled prior to THIS GENERATION.

in verse 15 How can he stand in the Holy Place unless it is there....so what does that tell us? That the Temple IS GOING TO BE REBUILT.....There is already talk of this.....

Tribo: Honey if your going to debate scripture with me you need to understand the scripture....."9" This is not talking about the disciples at all....This is talking about the Jewish people....The people that wanted nothing to do with God's son and stuck to the laws of the old testament.

So therefore get a clue tribo......it is not talking about the disciples going to all the nations...It is talking about the jewish people of all the nations...And this is TALKING ABOUT NOW.....NOW I SAY......NOW IT IS.

If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

H E L L O IT'S TALKING ABOUT WHEN THE ANTICHRIST COMES.....THE RAPTURE HASN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE TRUST ME WHEN IS SAY THIS......WHEN CHRIST COME FOR HIS CHURCH AND THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION STARTS.....THEN YOU WILL KNOW...IT WILL BE SO UNMISTABLE......ALL THE BAD IN THIS WORLD "RIGHT NOW" IS LEADING UP TO ALL THE PROPHECY BEING FULFILLED.

you need to wake up and smell the end.....for it is coming...so it is written so it will be....And of course tribo you choice to live with your head buried in the sand.

This world has never seen the desolation and distress that it talks about in vs 21.....you need to read it again Tribo......"NEVER TO BE EQUALED" FOR NOW......This planet has seen some horrific things....but if it says unequaled from the beginning of the world until now....that is exactly what it means...


vs 29 we still have sun......we still have moon light.....THERE WILL BE NONE......DO YOU PHANTHOM THAT........NO MORE NADA NILCH....

MS

Christ comes and takes his church.....(rapture) and then the 7 years of tribulation start......This is where all will either take the mark of the beast or die for Christ......


Also look at it this way.......All of us are driving along....MS, me, tribo, jb, all the people that debate were all in a big huge van. Then all of the sudden MS and Debbie are Gone. What do the others think? People in cars, planes, trains, everywhere......people are just gone.....then all that are left start to think about it.....OMG they were right......jmo. Is it to late for all those left behind. No because when they are forced to take the mark of the beast and they refuse....automatically gets them to heaven.....if it is meant with Love of Christ with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole mind.

Yes MS they are two different events......but two events that coinside with one another......

Christ takes us.....which people won't see....but when Christ comes back to reign....after the 7 years of tribulation....all will know of his coming....and I MEAN ALL.......WITHOUT QUESTION EACH PERSON WILL KNOW WHO HE IS.

Wouldee writes:



Not at all. Your vision is twisted Wouldee.



You will never find enlightenment as you have sold your soul.



He can defend himself quite nicely. I was speaking to Red, who was not attacking him, but who misunderstood what he was doing and saying.



I am committed to finding truth, for myself, not for you. You on the other hand have committed your soul to an untruth, a fantasy, a myth, in my opinion. But that is your choice and I really am not interested in saving you from yourself or your delusions.



Above, is an example of Wouldee's flights of word play as he fancies himself a poet.

And of course..... the dancing bannanas..

JB

And the people will reach and the people will grasp....but it will never take away from what is so.

Because It is written inspired by God

It is so

ferral wow you guys are hopeless you spout nothing but futurist beliefs you are so ingrained it is not funny anymore. may your god have mercy on your souls. no one yet has shown me where christ states his return!!! is for a later date out of HIS words - no one!! i give up you are not worth the time. everything you and wouldee say right back atcha - you look in the mirror and see righteousness - look closer guys you'll see the flaws everyone of us have. in this case your zits are full, squeeze them and they might heal.

That is a ridiculous statement in the way we understand what it is to be inspired today.

God inspires me too. Everything I write, everything I paint, is inspired by God.

Therefore it must all be so. My writings must also be the word of god.

JB

Man oh man talk about where the heck you get your information from....who ever said the disciples were still alive.....man you have to stop with the drugs....dude....

more proof you do not read that which is written correctly!! that was mockery dear F, stating something that is not true to those who state something that is not true, which is that the coming of christ has happened already 2000 yrs ago.

I have already done so.....but here you go again.



THIS IS JESUS SPEAKING.........


27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



And believe me you.....if this had already happen....we would know it.......because all the prophecies have to be fulled in order for Jesus to come back......THE PROPHECIES HAVE NO BEEN ALL FULFILLED.....DO YOU GET THAT.........