Tribo you wrote and I quote.....

"....then i would rather be "way off in left field" than hold to a belief that is incorrect...."

Tribo.. I have news fro you.. God doesn't want you to just hold to some belief!!!!

That's NOT what being born again is all about!!

But then again, you can't WILL yourelf to become born again either.......so when I said earlier, that you need to become born again, I realize now that is impossible for you to do.......because Only GOD can do that....not you.

But the Holy Spirit WILL draw you unto Himself and prepare your heart(as God is already doing)... to where one day you WILL be ready to believe and recieve...and be ready to accept Jesus as yuor Lord and Saviour, and THEN that is when you become born gain.

In the meantime, God is preparing your heart.
Continue to Let Him, My Friend.


Also Tribo...God doesn't save us.....and then leave us blinded to God's Truth.

Tribo....

When we become BORN AGAIN ...

We are NO LONGER Blind ...
For NOW we SEE.

Ms, you and the other's wreak of what could be considered gnosticism,by that i mean some form of present time thinking that one must become a vowed member of some secretly held cultish truth's that can only be understood by some spirit dwelling in you.Much The very thing Paul and john were fighting against (secret mysteries) in the time before christ did return - that generation! Don't pray for my salvation, pray that your eyes be opened and you not follow in the path and footsteps of the pharesees of christ time.

This is so true. Back in ancient times it took a lot of effort and money to pay scribes to write scripture. Anything written was given a lot of weight for reasoning would tell you that no one in their right mind would take the trouble to write it if it were not important or true.


Then came the printing press and books were bound and even they were given a lot of weight because each letter had to be set and each page printed, collated and bound.

We are living in a time where "being written" is not such a great authority anymore and does not have as much weight. Everyone writes and even publishes their own books, there is the Internet, and there are Ebooks all over the place.

The printing industry considers Ebooks to be a joke, but an author can still get on the best seller list with an Ebook under the right promotion which for some reason gives him credibility.

Feralcatlady begins her post with:

Let's see

For it is written.....

For it is so..........


But the tired old phrase "It is written".... does not have the authority it once did. Now, the author is looked at very carefully for credibility. There are still questions about who actually wrote the Bible and why, but most ancient scripture was written by paid scribes. Most people back then could not even read or write.

People are just beginning to realize that just because it is written, does not make it so.

JB

Morningsong said to tribo;




When a cult of "born again" Christians say things like this, it is like a cult of magic mushroom druggies saying to a person:

********************************************

"...you really need to take some of this mushroom, then you can rightly see god and then you will understand. Until then, you will never understand and you will be lost and way off in left field, my friend. "

But one day you WILL be ready to believe and recieve...and be ready to accept trust and accept this magic mushroom as your salvation, and THEN you will see God and will join us as one!

Please!! Accept the mushroom and see the truth of all things!
Until you do, you will not know the glory of God!

***************************************************

That is how you sound to us. So please realize that we don't want your "high," because its altered state is not what we consider reality. It is delusional as far as we are concerned.


~JB

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It's worse than that JB, even that which they say "it is written" in plain view they choose not to discern with there own eyes. ""NO ONE" yet has shown me where christ states one time where his return is at some present or future date where we abide!! his continual use of "you" - those present right there and then, and the disciples use of "we" - in talking of christ return, along with "this" generation! all was to take plce "THEN" he even states- there will be some of the deciples standing there with him who will not see death till his ""return""!!?? WTF?? are they still here alive today?? show me! introduce me! why are they not the head of the chuch at present then? how blind can someone be???? evidentally more blind than a blind bat in a cave at midnight with a mask over its eyes in a black burlap sack inside a lead box buried in the deepest pit in the earth.

Yes that does not make any sense to me either. It all proves that the Bible does have so many contradictions and is so ambiguous that it can be interpreted into anything a person decides. Many writings are like that.

A writing is like a sign. It brings a personal message to the reader and each reader can see a different message.

I can find answers in any book or by looking at any signs that appear around me after a question is posed. The message comes by way of the created reality that we ourselves create and interpret. That is how Tarot cards work also. They are signs with messages to be interpreted by the reader in a personal way. That is how the Bible or any book speaks to people and that is why every person gets a personal message from the books or from the signs and manifestations surrounding their reality.

JB

so then this is what must take place in order for them to see there error- someone, anyone has to show from the futurist view that somewhere anywhere within their christ's words that he states that these things will take place at some far future time. He is their god, and his holy spirit dwells within them, and it is he that leads them to and in all truths contained within jesus' sayings. If this then be true then it is time to get to the core of the matter - and i say:

Show me and the others here - ONE TIME - where jesus states from "his own words" where ANY of the things he personally speaks of about the signs of his return to the present audience of that time of which he is then speaking, that ANYTHING he says has to do with far off future happenings? JUST ONE TIME! You cannot! he is speaking to THAT GENERATION ONLY!! how many times do you have to read it and not get that??? instead you go off subject and talk of other things out of context! Misinterpretations! trying to pin it on future events yet to come about! Again i say - NOWHERE, does christ put his words in a futuristic event PAST THAT GENERATION!! It does not take some spirit to live inside me to see that this is the case!! Your case stands or falls on christ personal words for HE is your TEACHER, and your guide and all else!!!

let me put it another way so there is no misunderstanding - if ALL YOU HAD WAS NOTHING ELSE BUT JESUS" WORDS TO GO BY, WHAT WOULD BE YUOR CONCLUSION AS TO WHAT HE TELLS HIS DESCIPLES ABOUT THE COMING AND HIS RETURN?????

Tribo

What a great time to learn something new. Please allow me to play the part of the Christians’ devils’ advocate.

Are you a “consistent preterists” or do you still believe in a future second coming?

I think part of the reason most Christians think the preterist reasoning is wrong is because they have so ingrained with the idea that the millennium will be a time of peace, and plenty and fruitful socialization. Several of the websites I’ve visited proclaim this error by sighting the Biblical reference “and the lion shall lay down with the lamb”.

So Tribo reason this away for those Christians who are not with you. Who see this world as the total opposite of what they expected, ACCORDING to the bible.

Also, do your beliefs hinge on the Book of Revelations? If so, what proof does your ‘religion’ hold as truth to support the dating of this scripture as being PRIOR to 70 AD?

And Tribo what would you say to those who feel you and your beliefs attempt to destroy their hope and ROB THEM of their faith through the coming salvation? What can you offer to replace that which you would ROB them of?

Imagine ME being a Christian advocate, I'm sure they wont hire me, but since I know so little about your faith and so much about the Christian, I figured I'd approach my questions from the perspective I understand. MAYBE, they will be seen as intelligent questions rather than hands held at arms length with fingers in the shape of a cross and eyes closed tightly as if to deny your words before giving them any thought what-so-ever.

I am sooo open to try and see and learn anothers belief...but the way it is presented and then percieved is almost attackingly.

It becomes harder and harder to read what some say due to their presentaion.

Thank you Red.

Kat

Pardon the interruption. If you had read Tribo's past posts on this you would not be asking these questions. This is not Tribo's faith. He is only presenting a different side to the Biblical evidence of the return promise by Christ and pointing out another Christian viewpoint on the writings in the Bible.

Check his thread on this here:

http://mingle2.com/topic/show/141556

Are you saying you perceive it (the way it is presented) as being "attackingly?" If so, why do you perceive it that way?

JB

Are you a “consistent preterists” or do you still believe in a future second coming?


tribo:
sorry R, i'm not a preterist at all, i do not believe in any of it period. my take here is strictly to bring up a different belief held within their body that they have either never read before or know about or know little about.but consider as futurist to not be the truth taught by jesus. they are incorrect


R:
And Tribo what would you say to those who feel you and your beliefs attempt to destroy their hope and ROB THEM of their faith through the coming salvation? What can you offer to replace that which you would ROB them of?

tribo:

R, their is no coming salvation in mass, now it is only a one by one coming to their knowledge of what they believe. This by using evangelizing and proselytizing non believers like they try to do here. i hold out no hope for them at all, but as i say i don't believe in the man behind the curtain/wiz of oz concept. as to all other questions you put forth i would as i already have here in other post refer them to the international preterist web site to learn of these things, but if i remember right they state something like living this life knowing all is accomplished and that your in good hands with allstate - humor.

Sometimes it is the wording. The presentation. Sometimes it sounds belittleing. It gets exhausting to read.

Like; I try and read you with an open mind...then it becomes sorta like you (not just you) think some of us as being stupid.
It is easy to say all the right words to sound so much smarter and knowledgable, making it difficult for some to respond too because the smart ones make a good "words" case.

I like you, I want to read you openly...but it is increasingly hard for me to do without feeling attacked by what you percieve as the most intelligent way. I will not argue...but want to conversate.

Kat

What bugs me is that I always try to be very clear and ask direct questions and make clear statements but they are ignored completely, the subject is changed, the answer is not forthcoming.. it is like talking to a wall.

I want to say: Knock Knock Knock... is anybody home? Did you understand the question or statement? Hello?

And I get nothing but dancing bananas. LOL
Or statements like: "My God is an Awsome God... La La La..."

That is when communicating becomes frustration.

JB

I will just say this one thing more on the subject of the rapture .

God Loves us all so much... and waits patiently for us all to come to Him ...and accept Jesus, the One Sent to Save All Mankind.

I personally do not think Jesus will come til many many many more are saved.
I for one, would not want to leave without everyone of you here, and millions upon millions more, coming with me.

I love you all .
So does God.
And God is very merciful and patient.

Lord... help all to see that You are Lord.
And You Are Whom their hungry hearts seek.
Amen.

Love you All..Have a Blessed Sunday now.

You don't get that from me?
Yes, it is frustrating to most of us. You are very clear in your truths...but also to some almost....pushy. I know...I know...you are gonna say so are the God kind. Sighhhhhhh....

Sometimes JB you sound like you have a spiritual connection and sometimes of a Godly kind. Then it is like...huhh...

Kat

JB


I had not read the posts that denoted this information. I have read postes in which Tribo seemed to be explaining from HIS perspective and not as an alternative.

Sorry Tribo, my misunderstanding, but I do appreciate your answering my questions.

Like you, I feel there is little hope of changing the self proclaimed die hard fundamentalist (of any religion). For this reason they are not going to gain any insight at all from entertaining, what is in their mind, false ideas or should I say ideologies?

I try to imagine someone like Einstein. Having postulated a theory that was to be considered the most brilliant and widely acclaimed theory of truth to suddenly at some later date at another age to say to the world, I was so wrong how could I have thought that way? And then spending all of his final years attempt to find and correct the error of his earlier vision.

One brilliant, man so well respected, to whom so many looked up having to face the internal shame of having deceived so many. (at least in his own mind, if not in truth).

I expect he was not an average man, I expect he was one of only a few men in history who could have survived the deflation of ego upon discovering and admitting his error.

Most people, I expect, could not survive such an admission of error, for this reason I believe the most true and faithful believers, will never be capable of admitting error in the beliefs they have spread to others. It would be a defeat they fear they could not get over.

For this reason, I enjoy discussions much more with those who want to learn and know more about many things, including what they might someday belief.

Sorry again Tribo for the misunderstanding.

Kat – I think you should look into the website offered by Tribo and there are many others to be considered as well – both for and against the ideas. Learn first, and then decide for yourself how or what you wish to incorporate the information into your scheme of beliefs.

sorry, scatter, i know i get carried away but when all i hear is that i have to become filled with the spirit to understand whats clearly written as to being jesus' words and the disciples, it becomes frustrating, it in truth is not the case.

Let me lay this out more clearly for you please:

when we look at Matthew or Luke and the disciples talking the conversation starts as thus - luke:21vs 3 - And they (the discples) asked him (JESUS) saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

in matthew it says : and as he (JESUS) sat upon the mount of olives, the disciples came unto him "privately" saying - Tell "US" when shall these things be? "And" what shall be the signs of thy coming, and the end of the world (as they knew it)

from there on out jesus tells his disciples the signs of that time. Read vs; 4 -8 - then jesus states that " Then shall they deliver "YOU" up (the disciples) to be afflicted and kill "YOU" the disciples) and "YE" again the disciples, shall be hated of all nations (known at that time) for my names sake.

What one has to keep in perspective here is the "audience factor" who was the audience being told all these things? well it says plainly the audience here is "THE DISCIPLES" that they even came to him "PRIVATELY" this was not some statement for some far off mankind but a personal talk with jesus' disciples and himself, period.

secondly, if the disciples had uderstood his words to others he talked to before they came to him and asked about these signs, would not they then have asked if they had understood these things to be some far future event - master, in what time period are these events to take place? but they did not, which shows their questions were for their own knowledge and understanding of what "THEY" would be looking for to know the time was at hand.

to continue:

jesus again goes on to tell them many more signs matt; vs; 10 thru 32 - then he states to the disciples - So like wise "ye" "when "YE" shall see all these things, know that it is near "EVEN AT THE DOORS! vs34 - Verily (TRULY) I say unto "YOU" (the disciples) "THIS GENERATION" SHALL NOT!!!! (emphasis mine always) pass away, till ALL these things have been fulfilled. vs 42: Watch therefore ( who is to watch? the disciples) for ye no not what hour your lord cometh. - quite true, but the time line he layed out for them would let them know of its impending nearness which was for "THAT GENERATION. NONE of what christ says in matthew, luke or elsewhere gives even the slightest indication that jesus is talking about distant future things to come otherwise there would be no need for him to state over and over "THIS GENERATION"

that's pretty much it in a nutshell. everything else that is bought up is to uphold the futurist view they cling to so tightly. the power is in Christ words as to when.

My truths are just my opinions, and sometimes they change... if I can get new and reasonable information.

I believe that I am a spiritual being having a human experience but sometimes I feel all too human LOL... and forget my spiritual being.

The key is to try to remember that I am a spiritual being having a human experience.. then my feet hurt and I start thinking I'm just an aging human body with lots of strange ideas. LOL

Time is all we have in this life we live. How you spend your time is very important I think. ~Especially if we are wrong about an afterlife LOL.... I need to practice what I preach and use my time well.

JB

Touche'.

Kat