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| Topic: God is NOT a loving god. | |
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Edited by
DavidM616
on
Thu 10/27/16 11:02 AM
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Like I said, the bible and religion in general contradicts itself a stupid number of times Also incorrect. Our feeble minds and language barrier through interpretations contradicts each other. Some of the words from the ancient Hebrew are actually not understood in the bible. But are transliterated the best man knows how into the English language using context of surrounding words. That may not be translated totally correctly, as again they were translated/transliterated by mortal minds. Actually, there are many contradictions in the Bible. For instance: 2 Samuel 24:1 24 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. 1 Chronicles 21:1 21 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. You can look these passages up in an interlinear Bible and compare the Hebrew if you like. You will see that "satan"(*See footnote) is not found anywhere in the 2 Samuel passage. There are many other examples as well. But, just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Let's just say that all of the apparent contradictions are just that...apparent contradictions. And, these apparent contradictions are a result of "Our feeble minds and language barrier through interpretations contradicts each other. Some of the words from the ancient Hebrew are actually not understood in the bible. But are transliterated the best man knows how into the English language using context of surrounding words. That may not be translated totally correctly, as again they were translated/transliterated by mortal minds." Wouldn't an all-knowing god, who ostensibly designed our brains, our system of communication, as well as all languages, have foreseen this problem and saw to it that his all-important words were accurately preserved in a single, easy to understand language? I would certainly think so. But, then again, I expect God to act like a god. *For the record:Yes, I know that the Hebrew word we translate "satan" is not a proper name, and doesn't apply to one single entity.Still, the word doesn't appear in the 2 Samuel passage at all. It's clear that that passage attributes the manipulation to Yahweh. Problem: This passage reports the sin of David in numbering the people of Israel and Judah. Verse one affirms that God moved David to number the people. However, according to 1 Chronicles 21:1, it was Satan who moved David to number the people. Who was responsible for prompting David to act? Solution: Both statements are true. Although it was Satan who immediately incited David, ultimately it was God who permitted Satan to carry out this provocation. Although it was Satan’s design to destroy David and the people of God, it was God’s purpose to humble David and the people and teach them a valuable spiritual lesson. This situation is quite similar to the first two chapters of Job in which both God and Satan are involved in the suffering of Job. Similarly, both God and Satan are involved in the crucifixion. Satan’s purpose was to destroy the Son of God (John 13:2; 1 Cor 2:8). God’s purpose was to redeem humankind by the death of His Son (Acts 2:14–39) *can give the source if needed I'm sorry, but you are again employing semantics. If God allowed Satan (Assuming for the moment that Satan is a proper name and a single entity.) to manipulate David into sinning, that's not the same as YAHWEH manipulating David to sin; which is how it's stated in 2 Samuel. Of course, it was stated that way in 2 Samuel because, as I said before, at that time the folks writing these stories practiced a simple theology wherein Yahweh caused everything, good or bad. But, they feared him, so they didn't question it if Yahweh caused something bad. Then, after being exposed to Persian dualism, they embraced the idea of giving Yahweh credit for the good things, and blaming his enemy Satan for the bad stuff.Thus, the author of 1 Chronicles "corrected" the story from 2 Samuel by blaming Satan for David's sin. Speaking of Job...woo boy! There's another story we could discuss at great length in regards to God's unloving nature. |
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Edited by
DavidM616
on
Thu 10/27/16 11:11 AM
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With respect, if the preceding is an example of how you pick apart supposed Biblical contradictions, then you should be glad that I'm not inclined to devote the time necessary to start another thread on the topic. When you have to employ semantics games, and special pleading in order to try to rescue the Bible's reputation as "God's Word," you do more to discredit the notion than I ever could. (And, as far as this part of the discussion being "off-topic," since this is Lazarus' thread, and he broached the topic of Biblical contradictions, I figured it was fair game.)
By the way, I hope you don't take anything that I say in these threads personally. As I said before, you seem like a good guy. For instance, you haven't called me any names yet, or threatened me with divine punishment. I respect and appreciate that about you. Furthermore, I actually understand your position quite well, as I was a believer for the first forty years of my life. I'm well acquainted with the Olympic Gold Medal mental gymnastics that one has to engage in at times trying to pound square pegs into round holes in an attempt to harmonize all these different stories, written by different authors with different ideas, into a book supposedly authored by one mind. |
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Edited by
CowboyGH
on
Thu 10/27/16 11:25 AM
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Like I said, the bible and religion in general contradicts itself a stupid number of times Also incorrect. Our feeble minds and language barrier through interpretations contradicts each other. Some of the words from the ancient Hebrew are actually not understood in the bible. But are transliterated the best man knows how into the English language using context of surrounding words. That may not be translated totally correctly, as again they were translated/transliterated by mortal minds. Actually, there are many contradictions in the Bible. For instance: 2 Samuel 24:1 24 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. 1 Chronicles 21:1 21 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. You can look these passages up in an interlinear Bible and compare the Hebrew if you like. You will see that "satan"(*See footnote) is not found anywhere in the 2 Samuel passage. There are many other examples as well. But, just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Let's just say that all of the apparent contradictions are just that...apparent contradictions. And, these apparent contradictions are a result of "Our feeble minds and language barrier through interpretations contradicts each other. Some of the words from the ancient Hebrew are actually not understood in the bible. But are transliterated the best man knows how into the English language using context of surrounding words. That may not be translated totally correctly, as again they were translated/transliterated by mortal minds." Wouldn't an all-knowing god, who ostensibly designed our brains, our system of communication, as well as all languages, have foreseen this problem and saw to it that his all-important words were accurately preserved in a single, easy to understand language? I would certainly think so. But, then again, I expect God to act like a god. *For the record:Yes, I know that the Hebrew word we translate "satan" is not a proper name, and doesn't apply to one single entity.Still, the word doesn't appear in the 2 Samuel passage at all. It's clear that that passage attributes the manipulation to Yahweh. Problem: This passage reports the sin of David in numbering the people of Israel and Judah. Verse one affirms that God moved David to number the people. However, according to 1 Chronicles 21:1, it was Satan who moved David to number the people. Who was responsible for prompting David to act? Solution: Both statements are true. Although it was Satan who immediately incited David, ultimately it was God who permitted Satan to carry out this provocation. Although it was Satan’s design to destroy David and the people of God, it was God’s purpose to humble David and the people and teach them a valuable spiritual lesson. This situation is quite similar to the first two chapters of Job in which both God and Satan are involved in the suffering of Job. Similarly, both God and Satan are involved in the crucifixion. Satan’s purpose was to destroy the Son of God (John 13:2; 1 Cor 2:8). God’s purpose was to redeem humankind by the death of His Son (Acts 2:14–39) *can give the source if needed I'm sorry, but you are again employing semantics. If God allowed Satan (Assuming for the moment that Satan is a proper name and a single entity.) to manipulate David into sinning, that's not the same as YAHWEH manipulating David to sin; which is how it's stated in 2 Samuel. Of course, it was stated that way in 2 Samuel because, as I said before, at that time the folks writing these stories practiced a simple theology wherein Yahweh caused everything, good or bad. But, they feared him, so they didn't question it if Yahweh caused something bad. Then, after being exposed to Persian dualism, they embraced the idea of giving Yahweh credit for the good things, and blaming his enemy Satan for the bad stuff.Thus, the author of 1 Chronicles "corrected" the story from 2 Samuel by blaming Satan for David's sin. Speaking of Job...woo boy! There's another story we could discuss at great length in regards to God's unloving nature. God allows Satan to continue to "tempt" us to sway away from God because of what happened in the paradise. When mankind originally disobeyed God and essentially sinned against God and listened to Satan, we were kicked out of the paradise. So in turn God has given us all a fair chance back into the paradise by being obedient to him and his wishes contained in the covenant he made with us and signed in his blood. But more so on the supposed contradiction, that plays exactly in line with what I'm stating here. Satan was the one that tempted David and God allowed it for the previous reasons mentioned. This world isn't suppose to be all beautiful all the time. It is to have hardships and downfalls, that is the point of this life. To endure those things as to learn to be more faithful towards God, now knowing the opposite side of the coin. In the paradise they never experienced anything foul through life, no pain, no nothing of such. So in a sense they"we" were spoiled little brats. So that is why again God allows these things to happen so we learn/know the foul side of things to better appreciate the glory and beauty of that which he offers us either now on this Earth, or later in the new Heaven and new Earth in paradise with him. And essentially won't repeat doing the same thing as done in the original paradise. |
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Edited by
DavidM616
on
Thu 10/27/16 11:55 AM
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Okay...
You know, I think I'm just going to let that one stand. Not only did you once again avoid my main point, you also just provided a good example of you making my point for me in regards to lengths apologists have to go to in order to try to refute obvious Biblical contradictions, or to rescue God's rep as a "god of love." As soon as I have the time, I'll see you in the "Extra-Biblical proof of Jesus' resurrection" thread. |
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Okay... You know, I think I'm just going to let that one stand. Not only did you once again avoid my main point, you also just provided a good example of you making my point for me in regards to lengths apologists have to go to in order to try to refute obvious Biblical contradictions, or to rescue God's rep as a "god of love." As soon as I have the time, I'll see you in the "Extra-Biblical proof of Jesus' resurrection" thread. I'm sorry, I must have missed your point if I did not reference it or respond to it "answer it" |
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I'm not saying I believe in the existence of a god, because I don't. I'm mostly posting here because the atheist forums are practically dead, which I don't really understand. Over 200k posts in religion and 1k in atheist forums. How do so many people in the age of logic and reason still believe in the existence of a god? It is written in the bible that god is a loving god, god is a forgiving god, blah blah. But in practice, god is a vindictive god, god is a childish god and god is a cruel god. The whole story about Noah's ark is basically a story about a god that got mad, threw a childish temper tantrum and killed everyone on the planet save a boatload of people and animals. Does that really seem like an all knowing god of great wisdom to anyone? If anyone has seen the movie "machine gun preacher". There's a movie based on the real life of Sam Childers, a biker that found religion after he thought he killed a man then traveling to Africa and helping to save a bunch of children from a corrupt warlord. On to my point. In the movie(based on real life) you see a bunch of children in a pile that were torched to death because they tried to escape. Was that all part of gods plan, did god "love" these children in their final minutes as they were brutally burned to death and screaming? Seems like a damned sadistic god to me. Basically what I'm saying is that if god does exist, he's pretty much using us as lab rats in his psychological experiment. All of the good stuff and "miracles" that he's let happen really do pale in comparison to all the atrocities that he's turned a blind eye to all in favor of fulfilling his "divine plan". In my honest opinion the novelty of "god" died off in the 20th century. I think that many of us are smart enough to come to the realization that the invention of a god in inevitable because we all fear death and therefore invent the prospect of an afterlife, and who would be powerful enough to design such a thing? "God" and only that. But all that is self defeating, instead of confronting our fear of death and helping to seek a method of prolonging our lives through science, we run to religion which has a long standing history of stifling science. Many people will argue the existence of a god because they feel that they've seen him in one manner or another. His face is on a door, his face was on a grilled cheese sandwich or the classic "I see it in the miracles that happen every day". Such as what? Newborn life? Every time a baby is born it's a "miracle". Well what about those born into third world countries that starve to death before they're old enough to read or what about those born into overpopulous that struggle through their entire life just trying to make ends meet(because it's a rat race just to get a job)then ultimately succumb to suicide. Was there really a point in either of those being born just to live a life of pain and suffering with no chance for a happy ending? Or perhaps people will argue the "miracles" of rain or the sun coming up each day. Nope, the sun is a giant ball of gas and the rain is just precipitation. God exists because like an imaginary friend when we have no other, we want him to exist and if we stop believing, he will not exist. When God created mankind He created us complete with a brain so we can think properly as human, plan and decide to which I believe that we us human are responsible with our individual right or wrong doing... Whether you believe or not it's your own opinion but haven't you realized that when you said here that God is blah blah blah it already proven that you believe that God really exist... It's just that... With whatever wrong doing mankind has done God is the one to blame as what you're saying when obviously it's not God who did it... Is human really created to put finger or put the blame on others? This is such a pity to us then IF god did exist in his all powerful form as people suggest then he easily has the power to intervene on all the wrongdoings but instead sits around and does nothing. He's like a police officer that sits there and watches murder happen in front of him and does nothing. Useless.. He watches people get brutally tortured until their minds are warped to pure evil on a daily basis and does nothing. Heck, according to the bible those people then end up getting punished with a trip directly to hell upon their death. As stated in the OP, IF he did exist, he's not a loving god and I'd go so far as to say the worlds biggest a--hole. If God were to wield all His powers you and your master will accuse Him of abuse. However,He had set a day to judge all the actions of Man --and that of your master and his defeated clique (Revelations 20 v 11-12) But now is time of Gods mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. He is a loving God. "master" Yeah... Slavery, yet another horrible practice that was given the religious seal of approval. Well,your generalizations are so miscued. God loves humanity whom He created so much that He offered up Himself through His Son JESUS CHRIST to reconcile humanity back to Himself. Why was that so necessary? Man sold out himself to the devil. The wicked devil became the master of Man. You are the servant to whose bidding you do. Man has turned to the devil. Consequently, evil became the lot of humanity:wars,sufferings, poverty,sickness etc Jesus came to alleviate Man from the works of the devil. Acts 10v38 : How God anointed Jesus Christ....with Holy Ghost and with power,who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil;for God was with Him. All oppression:sicknesses, deciet of atheism,wars,all evils,unbelief has their root in the devil. DEVIL means pioneer of all evil and falsehood, deciet,lies,sin, atheism etc So dude,oppression is from the devil,not God-He is such a loving God. Still no proof of the existence of a god, just debate over the interpretations of the words in a 2000 year old fairy tale and the people that think every shift in the weather in proof of a god. So apparently he's a glorified weather man, lol... And where is your own proof of His nonexistence ?? Where's your proof of the nonexistence of pixie fairy unicorns that are invisible? What? Just because a storybook wasn't written about them 2000 years ago means they aren't real?? |
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Edited by
Lazarus102
on
Thu 10/27/16 03:36 PM
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I'm not saying I believe in the existence of a god, because I don't. I'm mostly posting here because the atheist forums are practically dead, which I don't really understand. Over 200k posts in religion and 1k in atheist forums. How do so many people in the age of logic and reason still believe in the existence of a god? It is written in the bible that god is a loving god, god is a forgiving god, blah blah. But in practice, god is a vindictive god, god is a childish god and god is a cruel god. The whole story about Noah's ark is basically a story about a god that got mad, threw a childish temper tantrum and killed everyone on the planet save a boatload of people and animals. Does that really seem like an all knowing god of great wisdom to anyone? If anyone has seen the movie "machine gun preacher". There's a movie based on the real life of Sam Childers, a biker that found religion after he thought he killed a man then traveling to Africa and helping to save a bunch of children from a corrupt warlord. On to my point. In the movie(based on real life) you see a bunch of children in a pile that were torched to death because they tried to escape. Was that all part of gods plan, did god "love" these children in their final minutes as they were brutally burned to death and screaming? Seems like a damned sadistic god to me. Basically what I'm saying is that if god does exist, he's pretty much using us as lab rats in his psychological experiment. All of the good stuff and "miracles" that he's let happen really do pale in comparison to all the atrocities that he's turned a blind eye to all in favor of fulfilling his "divine plan". In my honest opinion the novelty of "god" died off in the 20th century. I think that many of us are smart enough to come to the realization that the invention of a god in inevitable because we all fear death and therefore invent the prospect of an afterlife, and who would be powerful enough to design such a thing? "God" and only that. But all that is self defeating, instead of confronting our fear of death and helping to seek a method of prolonging our lives through science, we run to religion which has a long standing history of stifling science. Many people will argue the existence of a god because they feel that they've seen him in one manner or another. His face is on a door, his face was on a grilled cheese sandwich or the classic "I see it in the miracles that happen every day". Such as what? Newborn life? Every time a baby is born it's a "miracle". Well what about those born into third world countries that starve to death before they're old enough to read or what about those born into overpopulous that struggle through their entire life just trying to make ends meet(because it's a rat race just to get a job)then ultimately succumb to suicide. Was there really a point in either of those being born just to live a life of pain and suffering with no chance for a happy ending? Or perhaps people will argue the "miracles" of rain or the sun coming up each day. Nope, the sun is a giant ball of gas and the rain is just precipitation. God exists because like an imaginary friend when we have no other, we want him to exist and if we stop believing, he will not exist. When God created mankind He created us complete with a brain so we can think properly as human, plan and decide to which I believe that we us human are responsible with our individual right or wrong doing... Whether you believe or not it's your own opinion but haven't you realized that when you said here that God is blah blah blah it already proven that you believe that God really exist... It's just that... With whatever wrong doing mankind has done God is the one to blame as what you're saying when obviously it's not God who did it... Is human really created to put finger or put the blame on others? This is such a pity to us then IF god did exist in his all powerful form as people suggest then he easily has the power to intervene on all the wrongdoings but instead sits around and does nothing. He's like a police officer that sits there and watches murder happen in front of him and does nothing. Useless.. He watches people get brutally tortured until their minds are warped to pure evil on a daily basis and does nothing. Heck, according to the bible those people then end up getting punished with a trip directly to hell upon their death. As stated in the OP, IF he did exist, he's not a loving god and I'd go so far as to say the worlds biggest a--hole. If God were to wield all His powers you and your master will accuse Him of abuse. However,He had set a day to judge all the actions of Man --and that of your master and his defeated clique (Revelations 20 v 11-12) But now is time of Gods mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. He is a loving God. "master" Yeah... Slavery, yet another horrible practice that was given the religious seal of approval. Well,your generalizations are so miscued. God loves humanity whom He created so much that He offered up Himself through His Son JESUS CHRIST to reconcile humanity back to Himself. Why was that so necessary? Man sold out himself to the devil. The wicked devil became the master of Man. You are the servant to whose bidding you do. Man has turned to the devil. Consequently, evil became the lot of humanity:wars,sufferings, poverty,sickness etc Jesus came to alleviate Man from the works of the devil. Acts 10v38 : How God anointed Jesus Christ....with Holy Ghost and with power,who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil;for God was with Him. All oppression:sicknesses, deciet of atheism,wars,all evils,unbelief has their root in the devil. DEVIL means pioneer of all evil and falsehood, deciet,lies,sin, atheism etc So dude,oppression is from the devil,not God-He is such a loving God. Still no proof of the existence of a god, just debate over the interpretations of the words in a 2000 year old fairy tale and the people that think every shift in the weather in proof of a god. So apparently he's a glorified weather man, lol... It boils down to faith, for example purposes where is your proof of the existence of George Washington other by heresay "historical documents"? Just because you put more faith into those "evidences" of George's existence doesn't trump the evidences of God's existence. Just boils down to again you place more faith into those evidences then in God's. I already covered that in the George Washington example. Stuff like that is too boring to make up. George Washington wasn't some glorified mage performing miracles, lol.. He was no different than George bush besides owning slaves and such. It's a simple matter of believably. If you tell me that Trump said in a presidential debate that he wants to put up a wall and make the Mexicans pay for it, Well, that is plausible and I am able to believe it without even looking into it really. If you tell me that there's some all powerful god and the only thing he does in present day is things that have mostly already been explained by science that happen by themselves. That I'll need a little proof on, I'm not an idiot after all. That's like the person that says "I can make myself invisible but it only happens when no one is looking!". Lol.. |
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I'm not saying I believe in the existence of a god, because I don't. I'm mostly posting here because the atheist forums are practically dead, which I don't really understand. Over 200k posts in religion and 1k in atheist forums. How do so many people in the age of logic and reason still believe in the existence of a god? It is written in the bible that god is a loving god, god is a forgiving god, blah blah. But in practice, god is a vindictive god, god is a childish god and god is a cruel god. The whole story about Noah's ark is basically a story about a god that got mad, threw a childish temper tantrum and killed everyone on the planet save a boatload of people and animals. Does that really seem like an all knowing god of great wisdom to anyone? If anyone has seen the movie "machine gun preacher". There's a movie based on the real life of Sam Childers, a biker that found religion after he thought he killed a man then traveling to Africa and helping to save a bunch of children from a corrupt warlord. On to my point. In the movie(based on real life) you see a bunch of children in a pile that were torched to death because they tried to escape. Was that all part of gods plan, did god "love" these children in their final minutes as they were brutally burned to death and screaming? Seems like a damned sadistic god to me. Basically what I'm saying is that if god does exist, he's pretty much using us as lab rats in his psychological experiment. All of the good stuff and "miracles" that he's let happen really do pale in comparison to all the atrocities that he's turned a blind eye to all in favor of fulfilling his "divine plan". In my honest opinion the novelty of "god" died off in the 20th century. I think that many of us are smart enough to come to the realization that the invention of a god in inevitable because we all fear death and therefore invent the prospect of an afterlife, and who would be powerful enough to design such a thing? "God" and only that. But all that is self defeating, instead of confronting our fear of death and helping to seek a method of prolonging our lives through science, we run to religion which has a long standing history of stifling science. Many people will argue the existence of a god because they feel that they've seen him in one manner or another. His face is on a door, his face was on a grilled cheese sandwich or the classic "I see it in the miracles that happen every day". Such as what? Newborn life? Every time a baby is born it's a "miracle". Well what about those born into third world countries that starve to death before they're old enough to read or what about those born into overpopulous that struggle through their entire life just trying to make ends meet(because it's a rat race just to get a job)then ultimately succumb to suicide. Was there really a point in either of those being born just to live a life of pain and suffering with no chance for a happy ending? Or perhaps people will argue the "miracles" of rain or the sun coming up each day. Nope, the sun is a giant ball of gas and the rain is just precipitation. God exists because like an imaginary friend when we have no other, we want him to exist and if we stop believing, he will not exist. When God created mankind He created us complete with a brain so we can think properly as human, plan and decide to which I believe that we us human are responsible with our individual right or wrong doing... Whether you believe or not it's your own opinion but haven't you realized that when you said here that God is blah blah blah it already proven that you believe that God really exist... It's just that... With whatever wrong doing mankind has done God is the one to blame as what you're saying when obviously it's not God who did it... Is human really created to put finger or put the blame on others? This is such a pity to us then IF god did exist in his all powerful form as people suggest then he easily has the power to intervene on all the wrongdoings but instead sits around and does nothing. He's like a police officer that sits there and watches murder happen in front of him and does nothing. Useless.. He watches people get brutally tortured until their minds are warped to pure evil on a daily basis and does nothing. Heck, according to the bible those people then end up getting punished with a trip directly to hell upon their death. As stated in the OP, IF he did exist, he's not a loving god and I'd go so far as to say the worlds biggest a--hole. If God were to wield all His powers you and your master will accuse Him of abuse. However,He had set a day to judge all the actions of Man --and that of your master and his defeated clique (Revelations 20 v 11-12) But now is time of Gods mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. He is a loving God. "master" Yeah... Slavery, yet another horrible practice that was given the religious seal of approval. Well,your generalizations are so miscued. God loves humanity whom He created so much that He offered up Himself through His Son JESUS CHRIST to reconcile humanity back to Himself. Why was that so necessary? Man sold out himself to the devil. The wicked devil became the master of Man. You are the servant to whose bidding you do. Man has turned to the devil. Consequently, evil became the lot of humanity:wars,sufferings, poverty,sickness etc Jesus came to alleviate Man from the works of the devil. Acts 10v38 : How God anointed Jesus Christ....with Holy Ghost and with power,who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil;for God was with Him. All oppression:sicknesses, deciet of atheism,wars,all evils,unbelief has their root in the devil. DEVIL means pioneer of all evil and falsehood, deciet,lies,sin, atheism etc So dude,oppression is from the devil,not God-He is such a loving God. Still no proof of the existence of a god, just debate over the interpretations of the words in a 2000 year old fairy tale and the people that think every shift in the weather in proof of a god. So apparently he's a glorified weather man, lol... It boils down to faith, for example purposes where is your proof of the existence of George Washington other by heresay "historical documents"? Just because you put more faith into those "evidences" of George's existence doesn't trump the evidences of God's existence. Just boils down to again you place more faith into those evidences then in God's. I already covered that in the George Washington example. Stuff like that is too boring to make up. George Washington wasn't some glorified mage performing miracles, lol.. He was no different than George bush besides owning slaves and such. It's a simple matter of believably. If you tell me that Trump said in a presidential debate that he wants to put up a wall and make the Mexicans pay for it, Well, that is plausible and I am able to believe it without even looking into it really. If you tell me that there's some all powerful god and the only thing he does in present day is things that have mostly already been explained by science that happen by themselves. That I'll need a little proof on, I'm not an idiot after all. That's like the person that says "I can make myself invisible but it only happens when no one is looking!". Lol.. Very good point and I want to play a little game with you to make my point in what I was saying. I'll believe George Washington was president when you start believing in God. There is just as much proof for both. Just you personally choose to put more faith in that George was president then there being a God. |
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I'm not saying I believe in the existence of a god, because I don't. I'm mostly posting here because the atheist forums are practically dead, which I don't really understand. Over 200k posts in religion and 1k in atheist forums. How do so many people in the age of logic and reason still believe in the existence of a god? It is written in the bible that god is a loving god, god is a forgiving god, blah blah. But in practice, god is a vindictive god, god is a childish god and god is a cruel god. The whole story about Noah's ark is basically a story about a god that got mad, threw a childish temper tantrum and killed everyone on the planet save a boatload of people and animals. Does that really seem like an all knowing god of great wisdom to anyone? If anyone has seen the movie "machine gun preacher". There's a movie based on the real life of Sam Childers, a biker that found religion after he thought he killed a man then traveling to Africa and helping to save a bunch of children from a corrupt warlord. On to my point. In the movie(based on real life) you see a bunch of children in a pile that were torched to death because they tried to escape. Was that all part of gods plan, did god "love" these children in their final minutes as they were brutally burned to death and screaming? Seems like a damned sadistic god to me. Basically what I'm saying is that if god does exist, he's pretty much using us as lab rats in his psychological experiment. All of the good stuff and "miracles" that he's let happen really do pale in comparison to all the atrocities that he's turned a blind eye to all in favor of fulfilling his "divine plan". In my honest opinion the novelty of "god" died off in the 20th century. I think that many of us are smart enough to come to the realization that the invention of a god in inevitable because we all fear death and therefore invent the prospect of an afterlife, and who would be powerful enough to design such a thing? "God" and only that. But all that is self defeating, instead of confronting our fear of death and helping to seek a method of prolonging our lives through science, we run to religion which has a long standing history of stifling science. Many people will argue the existence of a god because they feel that they've seen him in one manner or another. His face is on a door, his face was on a grilled cheese sandwich or the classic "I see it in the miracles that happen every day". Such as what? Newborn life? Every time a baby is born it's a "miracle". Well what about those born into third world countries that starve to death before they're old enough to read or what about those born into overpopulous that struggle through their entire life just trying to make ends meet(because it's a rat race just to get a job)then ultimately succumb to suicide. Was there really a point in either of those being born just to live a life of pain and suffering with no chance for a happy ending? Or perhaps people will argue the "miracles" of rain or the sun coming up each day. Nope, the sun is a giant ball of gas and the rain is just precipitation. God exists because like an imaginary friend when we have no other, we want him to exist and if we stop believing, he will not exist. When God created mankind He created us complete with a brain so we can think properly as human, plan and decide to which I believe that we us human are responsible with our individual right or wrong doing... Whether you believe or not it's your own opinion but haven't you realized that when you said here that God is blah blah blah it already proven that you believe that God really exist... It's just that... With whatever wrong doing mankind has done God is the one to blame as what you're saying when obviously it's not God who did it... Is human really created to put finger or put the blame on others? This is such a pity to us then IF god did exist in his all powerful form as people suggest then he easily has the power to intervene on all the wrongdoings but instead sits around and does nothing. He's like a police officer that sits there and watches murder happen in front of him and does nothing. Useless.. He watches people get brutally tortured until their minds are warped to pure evil on a daily basis and does nothing. Heck, according to the bible those people then end up getting punished with a trip directly to hell upon their death. As stated in the OP, IF he did exist, he's not a loving god and I'd go so far as to say the worlds biggest a--hole. If God were to wield all His powers you and your master will accuse Him of abuse. However,He had set a day to judge all the actions of Man --and that of your master and his defeated clique (Revelations 20 v 11-12) But now is time of Gods mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. He is a loving God. "master" Yeah... Slavery, yet another horrible practice that was given the religious seal of approval. Well,your generalizations are so miscued. God loves humanity whom He created so much that He offered up Himself through His Son JESUS CHRIST to reconcile humanity back to Himself. Why was that so necessary? Man sold out himself to the devil. The wicked devil became the master of Man. You are the servant to whose bidding you do. Man has turned to the devil. Consequently, evil became the lot of humanity:wars,sufferings, poverty,sickness etc Jesus came to alleviate Man from the works of the devil. Acts 10v38 : How God anointed Jesus Christ....with Holy Ghost and with power,who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil;for God was with Him. All oppression:sicknesses, deciet of atheism,wars,all evils,unbelief has their root in the devil. DEVIL means pioneer of all evil and falsehood, deciet,lies,sin, atheism etc So dude,oppression is from the devil,not God-He is such a loving God. Still no proof of the existence of a god, just debate over the interpretations of the words in a 2000 year old fairy tale and the people that think every shift in the weather in proof of a god. So apparently he's a glorified weather man, lol... It boils down to faith, for example purposes where is your proof of the existence of George Washington other by heresay "historical documents"? Just because you put more faith into those "evidences" of George's existence doesn't trump the evidences of God's existence. Just boils down to again you place more faith into those evidences then in God's. I already covered that in the George Washington example. Stuff like that is too boring to make up. George Washington wasn't some glorified mage performing miracles, lol.. He was no different than George bush besides owning slaves and such. It's a simple matter of believably. If you tell me that Trump said in a presidential debate that he wants to put up a wall and make the Mexicans pay for it, Well, that is plausible and I am able to believe it without even looking into it really. If you tell me that there's some all powerful god and the only thing he does in present day is things that have mostly already been explained by science that happen by themselves. That I'll need a little proof on, I'm not an idiot after all. That's like the person that says "I can make myself invisible but it only happens when no one is looking!". Lol.. Very good point and I want to play a little game with you to make my point in what I was saying. I'll believe George Washington was president when you start believing in God. There is just as much proof for both. Just you personally choose to put more faith in that George was president then there being a God. Just as much proof in both?? LOL, nope!. There are likely people still alive today that had relatives that spoke to George Washington or maybe relatives of his slaves. He was one of the founding fathers of the united states and that was not long ago. There are paintings of him, lol. Also like I said, boring president vs. Supreme magical being. One of these makes sense and the other comes off as a children's fairy tale, please tell me that you can tell the difference? Some would think you insane otherwise. |
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Just as much proof in both?? LOL, nope!. There are likely people still alive today that had relatives that spoke to George Washington or maybe relatives of his slaves. He was one of the founding fathers of the united states and that was not long ago. There are paintings of him, lol. Also like I said, boring president vs. Supreme magical being. One of these makes sense and the other comes off as a children's fairy tale, please tell me that you can tell the difference? Some would think you insane otherwise. Well I was wrong, George would have one form of "evidence" over Jesus. As Jesus never got married and never had biological children. But there are first hand paintings of Jesus, painted of him and while he was on the cross. But I know not of this Supreme "magical" being you speak of, didn't know we were talking about magic. |
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Just as much proof in both?? LOL, nope!. There are likely people still alive today that had relatives that spoke to George Washington or maybe relatives of his slaves. He was one of the founding fathers of the united states and that was not long ago. There are paintings of him, lol. Also like I said, boring president vs. Supreme magical being. One of these makes sense and the other comes off as a children's fairy tale, please tell me that you can tell the difference? Some would think you insane otherwise. Well I was wrong, George would have one form of "evidence" over Jesus. As Jesus never got married and never had biological children. But there are first hand paintings of Jesus, painted of him and while he was on the cross. But I know not of this Supreme "magical" being you speak of, didn't know we were talking about magic. Magic, miracles or godly intervention, it matters not; these are just terms that people use for things that they cannot understand. Maybe some man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago and storys were likely told of him, exaggerated stories of being the son of god because his mother was a virgin. I mean no possible way that she could have just been a slut and too scared of her husband whom at the time would have had full rights to beat her senseless if not to death if caught cheating on him. And more exaggerated stories about how he turned perfectly good water into wine, for reasons.. I guess getting drunk was a necessity back then.. Or what was the other one, turning one loaf of bread into 10, it's likely that Jesus merely invented sliced bread, lol... It's likely these stories made it through time because they're based on "truth" and even today people still cling to "reality" TV even if it is mostly scripted and made up. Simple fact, For most of us, life is boring and pointless, that is all. We need to live in the day and not for some fantasy afterlife. We will live on after death but only as the molecules that made up our being, nothing more. |
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But there are first hand paintings of Jesus, painted of him and while he was on the cross. That would be worthy of a link |
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Okay... You know, I think I'm just going to let that one stand. Not only did you once again avoid my main point, you also just provided a good example of you making my point for me in regards to lengths apologists have to go to in order to try to refute obvious Biblical contradictions, or to rescue God's rep as a "god of love." As soon as I have the time, I'll see you in the "Extra-Biblical proof of Jesus' resurrection" thread. I'm sorry, I must have missed your point if I did not reference it or respond to it "answer it" That's okay. Like I said, I'm ready to move on to another topic, anyway. |
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But there are first hand paintings of Jesus, painted of him and while he was on the cross. That would be worthy of a link I'm with you, Simpy. I'd really like to see the first-hand paintings of Jesus on the cross. Are you just trolling us with this one, Cowboy? |
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But there are first hand paintings of Jesus, painted of him and while he was on the cross. That would be worthy of a link Many often times the "proof" that religious people speak of are things that got debunked by science some time ago. Even if such pictures existed and science proved them to be from that time period, A: did scissors even exist back then? If not, most of the men from that time likely looked like Jesus. B: crucifixion was quite likely a common punishment back then so seeing a paining of a man on a cross, Jesus or otherwise proves nothing of the existence of a god. Funny thing, people were all hog wild over the idea of aliens visiting earth in recent times when all the crop circles started popping up, until it turned out just to be a bunch of bored hillbilly farmers that made them as a publicity stunt. Like I said, bored people make stuff up and the people of that time period would have been VERY bored; especially since all there was to do was read, have sex and survive and only higher class folk could read. |
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Edited by
DavidM616
on
Fri 10/28/16 11:24 AM
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Absolutely, Lazarus. That's sound logic, right there.
As far as your comment about scissors, allow me to offer an interesting fact. Despite our common image of Jesus as having long hair and a beard, in some of the earliest known depictions of him, he had short hair and no beard. Not surprising, though, since (According to Cassius.) Emperor Hadrian (76 to 138CE) was the first Roman Emperor to sport a beard. It's also pretty amusing that in a mosaic depiction of Jesus from around 350CE, he bears a striking resemblance to Emperor Constantine! Imagine that. (https://archaeology-travel.com/friday-find/hinton-st-mary-mosaic/) Oh, and here's another interesting fact that adds weight to your argument: Even if the "firsthand painting" that CowboyGH posits did exist, and said "Jesus being crucified" right on it, it STILL wouldn't prove that THE Jesus existed. The name "Jesus" was a very popular name in the First Century CE. Archaeologists have discovered over seventy instances of that name in burial tombs from that time-period. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/27/religion.israel) Furthermore, Josephus also mentions a couple of other guys named "Jesus." |
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Absolutely, Lazarus. That's sound logic, right there. As far as your comment about scissors, allow me to offer an interesting fact. Despite our common image of Jesus as having long hair and a beard, in some of the earliest known depictions of him, he had short hair and no beard. Not surprising, though, since (According to Cassius.) Emperor Hadrian (76 to 138CE) was the first Roman Emperor to sport a beard. It's also pretty amusing that in a mosaic depiction of Jesus from around 350CE, he bears a striking resemblance to Emperor Constantine! Imagine that. (https://archaeology-travel.com/friday-find/hinton-st-mary-mosaic/) Oh, and here's another interesting fact that adds weight to your argument: Even if the "firsthand painting" that CowboyGH posits did exist, and said "Jesus being crucified" right on it, it STILL wouldn't prove that THE Jesus existed. The name "Jesus" was a very popular name in the First Century CE. Archaeologists have discovered over seventy instances of that name in burial tombs from that time-period. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/27/religion.israel) Furthermore, Josephus also mentions a couple of other guys named "Jesus." pronounced "hey-zeus", seems be be more than a couple just south of here... |
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Just as much proof in both?? LOL, nope!. There are likely people still alive today that had relatives that spoke to George Washington or maybe relatives of his slaves. He was one of the founding fathers of the united states and that was not long ago. There are paintings of him, lol. Also like I said, boring president vs. Supreme magical being. One of these makes sense and the other comes off as a children's fairy tale, please tell me that you can tell the difference? Some would think you insane otherwise. Well I was wrong, George would have one form of "evidence" over Jesus. As Jesus never got married and never had biological children. But there are first hand paintings of Jesus, painted of him and while he was on the cross. But I know not of this Supreme "magical" being you speak of, didn't know we were talking about magic. Magic, miracles or godly intervention, it matters not; these are just terms that people use for things that they cannot understand. Maybe some man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago and storys were likely told of him, exaggerated stories of being the son of god because his mother was a virgin. I mean no possible way that she could have just been a slut and too scared of her husband whom at the time would have had full rights to beat her senseless if not to death if caught cheating on him. And more exaggerated stories about how he turned perfectly good water into wine, for reasons.. I guess getting drunk was a necessity back then.. Or what was the other one, turning one loaf of bread into 10, it's likely that Jesus merely invented sliced bread, lol... It's likely these stories made it through time because they're based on "truth" and even today people still cling to "reality" TV even if it is mostly scripted and made up. Simple fact, For most of us, life is boring and pointless, that is all. We need to live in the day and not for some fantasy afterlife. We will live on after death but only as the molecules that made up our being, nothing more. Crucifixion wasn't a "common" punishment for just any regular ole joe. Sorry you feel that way about a miracle, I hope one day you'll truly experience a miracle :). And for the rest of it, it's just your "feelings" perspective of it. Not renouncing what you feel about it, just has no more merit or "proven" truth then what I state here. |
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Absolutely, Lazarus. That's sound logic, right there. As far as your comment about scissors, allow me to offer an interesting fact. Despite our common image of Jesus as having long hair and a beard, in some of the earliest known depictions of him, he had short hair and no beard. Not surprising, though, since (According to Cassius.) Emperor Hadrian (76 to 138CE) was the first Roman Emperor to sport a beard. It's also pretty amusing that in a mosaic depiction of Jesus from around 350CE, he bears a striking resemblance to Emperor Constantine! Imagine that. (https://archaeology-travel.com/friday-find/hinton-st-mary-mosaic/) Oh, and here's another interesting fact that adds weight to your argument: Even if the "firsthand painting" that CowboyGH posits did exist, and said "Jesus being crucified" right on it, it STILL wouldn't prove that THE Jesus existed. The name "Jesus" was a very popular name in the First Century CE. Archaeologists have discovered over seventy instances of that name in burial tombs from that time-period. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/27/religion.israel) Furthermore, Josephus also mentions a couple of other guys named "Jesus." pronounced "hey-zeus", seems be be more than a couple just south of here... Another bit of irony, Zeus is the name of a god in Greek mythology. |
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Edited by
Lazarus102
on
Fri 10/28/16 03:40 PM
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Just as much proof in both?? LOL, nope!. There are likely people still alive today that had relatives that spoke to George Washington or maybe relatives of his slaves. He was one of the founding fathers of the united states and that was not long ago. There are paintings of him, lol. Also like I said, boring president vs. Supreme magical being. One of these makes sense and the other comes off as a children's fairy tale, please tell me that you can tell the difference? Some would think you insane otherwise. Well I was wrong, George would have one form of "evidence" over Jesus. As Jesus never got married and never had biological children. But there are first hand paintings of Jesus, painted of him and while he was on the cross. But I know not of this Supreme "magical" being you speak of, didn't know we were talking about magic. Magic, miracles or godly intervention, it matters not; these are just terms that people use for things that they cannot understand. Maybe some man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago and storys were likely told of him, exaggerated stories of being the son of god because his mother was a virgin. I mean no possible way that she could have just been a slut and too scared of her husband whom at the time would have had full rights to beat her senseless if not to death if caught cheating on him. And more exaggerated stories about how he turned perfectly good water into wine, for reasons.. I guess getting drunk was a necessity back then.. Or what was the other one, turning one loaf of bread into 10, it's likely that Jesus merely invented sliced bread, lol... It's likely these stories made it through time because they're based on "truth" and even today people still cling to "reality" TV even if it is mostly scripted and made up. Simple fact, For most of us, life is boring and pointless, that is all. We need to live in the day and not for some fantasy afterlife. We will live on after death but only as the molecules that made up our being, nothing more. Crucifixion wasn't a "common" punishment for just any regular ole joe. Sorry you feel that way about a miracle, I hope one day you'll truly experience a miracle :). And for the rest of it, it's just your "feelings" perspective of it. Not renouncing what you feel about it, just has no more merit or "proven" truth then what I state here. Feeling good about something (no matter how good) does not make it divine. Like, if I survive a heart attack, that's just dumb luck, people do it all the time. If I survive a heart attack then float up several feet out of the hospital bed as if to be lifted by the hand of a god, maybe then. |
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