Well, Guys, it's been fun talking to you, but I'm going to bid you farewell now. I've decided that it's a waste of time for me to be on this site. I've sent dozens of messages (Probably over a hundred.) to many different ladies and gotten almost zero response. (Not counting obvious scammers.) It's not the fault of the site, of course. I'm just not a very appealing guy, it seems. Oh well. I have other things I should be doing anyway.
So...best of luck to you!

It's obviously later, since the old covenant had been around for centuries when the new one was instituted. And, if it wasn't an improvement upon the old one, surely your All-Wise God would never have instituted it in the first place.



Wow...that's one convoluted paradigm right there. If God is All-Wise, and can see into the future, then there is absolutely no reason for him to command his minions to engage in centuries of primitive rituals when he was going to scrap that system for a different one later. He would have just went with the "new" covenant in the first place.

Let's get real here...what we really have here is a new religion that was force-fit upon the foundation of an existing, separate, religion. (Incidentally, one of the ways this new religion was "force-fit" upon the foundation of Judaism was by select "doctoring" of passages from the Tanakh in order to make them better fit the doctrines of Christianity.) And, apologists have been tying themselves in knots ever since, trying desperately to come up with "explanations" for why an All-knowing and All-wise God jerked his drones around for centuries before inaugurating the better system of rituals.

Heh, heh. If you say so, Sir.

I just have to add that I find it amazing that, in order to defend God, you are forced to focus on the difference between the words "murder" and "kill." Particularly since the original writings were in Hebrew to start with!

Did you even read my post? Fine...here's the rest of the definitions of that word that you overlooked:

Strong's Number: 7523 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
xcr a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ratsach TWOT - 2208
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
raw-tsakh' Verb
Definition
to murder, slay, kill
(Qal) to murder, slay
premeditated
accidental
as avenger
slayer (intentional) (participle)
(Niphal) to be slain
(Piel)
to murder, assassinate
murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
(Pual) to be killed
NAS Word Usage - Total: 46
killed 1, kills the manslayer 1, manslayer 18, murder 7, murdered 2, murderer 12, murderer shall be put 1, murderers 1, murders 1, put to death 1, slew 1

Obviously, your use of precision word defining here is a waste of time, as the word has too many variations of meaning to allow for you to build your paradigm upon such a conveniently narrow definition of "ratsach."




I told you that there was no point trying to hit me with that "old covenant vs. new covenant" line here, as the "thou shalt not kill" quote came from the OT, and it was God telling them that, then telling them soon thereafter to begin wholesale slaughter. Therefore, whether it was Old Covenant or New Covenant is again irrelevant to the point at hand, i.e. God is here depicted as a capricious tyrant who tells his minions not to murder/slay/kill/cause people to cease breathing, etc., then soon thereafter commands the same minions to murder/slay/kill/cause people to cease breathing. It's the same god issuing the orders, right?
Once again, I maintain that an All-knowing God would have employed the proper covenant in the first place, rather than toss the first one aside at some point in favor of a "New and Improved" model.



And, the very Law that God supposedly gave the Israelites said that they were not to take the life of another. Right before Yahweh threw it out the window and told them to take the lives of MANY others.

It would be great if Yahweh could have made up his mind about certain things, and then very clearly communicated his decisions to his minions, the first time. Before lots of people were supposedly hacked to bits. Particularly since I have to imagine that a bunch of former slaves probably weren't educated well enough to be able to parse words like we can, and would presumably have needed to have things spelled out very clearly.

This would also have obviated the need for an army of apologists down through the centuries to explain to we poor noobs what he "really meant."

Well, I don't know what happened there. I tried to edit my last comment in order to explain a point that I thought was relevant to our discussion, Cowboy, but it's not showing up. I guess the time allotment for editing ran out.

What I said was that the Hebrew word "ratsach," translated "kill" in Deuteronomy 5:17 and Exodus 20:13 in the KJV, is often translated as "murder." I just couldn't resist quoting the KJV in order to mess with you.

In any event, in case you don't know, the Hebrew language is a very expressive language and so many Hebrew words have a wider range of meaning than most English words. Such is the case here. "Ratsach" can mean "murder, kill, manslaughter, unintentional killing, accidental killing", etc. With this in mind, your efforts at parsing out the meaning you want, and then arguing the case from that perspective, is a waste of time. The word just covers too many different shades of meaning for that.

So...yet again, we are back to the old translation issue, and my contention that God would've utilized a better method of getting his point across.

Exodus 20:13

"13 Thou shalt not kill."

Deuteronomy 5:17

"17 Thou shalt not kill."

You were saying?



First off, as I just demonstrated, the commandment was "thou shalt not KILL." So, your narrow definition of "murder" and the torturous special pleading that you have here employed don't apply.

But, even if I accept your explanation, what we are left with is a god who is a capricious tyrant who tells his minions not to kill, then abruptly turns on a dime and tells them to start slaughtering every man, woman, and child in town. If Yahweh and/or Jesus is/are indeed the "top law" as you say, then they do have the authority to do just that, but that doesn't make it right. Also, if he/they are just going to change their minds about stuff all the time, and expect their minions to just roll with the changes and do as they're told, without question, why give us a conscience in the first place?

Well, Sir, the beauty of it is...you don't have to read them!

The vast majority of the cases of genocide of Christians of which you speak were carried out by people of other religions, not atheists. So, Lazarus' point still stands.



Hmm. The god that said "thou shall not kill" also commanded Israel on multiple occasions to slaughter every man woman and child in whatever city they happened to be invading at the time. Here are a couple of examples, among many that I could cite:

Deuteronomy 20:16-17

"16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:"

1 Samuel 15:2-3

"2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***."

I guess he didn't really mean it after all.

And, please don't try to tell me that I have to "keep things in context, and that this was part of the old covenant, etc." You specifically said that "the God that said 'Thou shalt not kill' means just that." And, "thou shalt not kill" comes straight out of the OT, specifically Exodus 20:13, and Deuteronomy 5:17.

Also, please don't bother making excuses for God along the lines of, "Well, in Deuteronomy 20:18, God explained WHY he was commanding the deaths of the Canaanites. It was so they couldn't mislead Israel into worshiping false gods." Or, "There is a difference between murder and execution, my friend. When God said 'thou shalt not kill' he was referring to murder, not God-decreed execution." I've heard these excuses before. In the first place,"Thou shalt not kill" is about as straightforward as you can get. If God actually meant to say, "Thou shalt not murder, but you can and will execute whomever I command you to execute," then that's what he should have said in the first damn place. But, he didn't.

Second, why would this All-loving god, who would centuries later command his worshipers to reach out to people of other nations and faiths and try to peacefully convert them through a ministry, here decree that his worshipers march in and mow these people down like wheat, without even trying to convert them? I can understand why folks like Marcion believed that the god of the OT was a separate entity from the god of the NT.

Finally, isn't it a crying shame that, despite the supposed slaughter of thousands of men, women, and children in Canaan (Assuming for the sake of argument that this actually happened, which I doubt.), Yahweh's block-headed minions still ended up falling prey to worshiping other gods, anyway? Not only because of the obvious tragedy of all those people killed for nothing, but also because this prompted Yahweh to ***** about it incessantly throughout the OT. If Israel hadn't succumbed to false worship so much of the time, the OT would've been about a fourth as long and much less repetitive and boring.

Well, I couldn't get the video to embed, so here's a link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTdDN_MRe64

There it is, right there! Or, in a similar vein:

[embed]https://youtu.be/UTdDN_MRe64[/embed]

Absolutely!
Yep. Tourism is one of the few good "isms."

I have just realized something that gives me hope for you, Rooster. You keep asserting that "God" exists, and that I will have to get used to it. Well, "God" is not a name, you know...it's a title. So, you may actually be worshiping Zeus, or Odin, without even realizing it. And, I'm pretty sure that either of them would, in their beneficence, be willing to give you credit for it, and hold back from smiting you. (Although...Zeus isn't exactly known for his beneficence. But, as he is SO busy with the ladies and all, he'd probably give you a pass, anyway. For now.)

Very true! And, as long as we remain vigilant, and don't allow fundamentalists (Of any belief system.) to gain too much power and influence, it can remain fun. No beheadings, or scourgings, or time on the rack for me, thanks!

Similarly, you can't spell believer without lie.
Note that I am not accusing individual believers of lying, rather it is they who have been lied to. I learned this the hard way myself.

There ya' go. And, like Prometheus, he was punished for enlightening humanity. It's also interesting to note that Prometheus was sentenced to eternal torture for his actions. Sounds like Hell to me.

"Master of the Universe?!" PLEASE!! Walking on water? PFFT! Thor can just fly over the water. Calming a storm? Kid's stuff! Thor can call up ten storms without even breaking a sweat! Expelling demons? HA! Thor doesn't even have to expel the demons, because they flee in terror the moment they see him coming!

And, I haven't even gotten to ODIN, yet. You would do well to repent from your blasphemies, Rooster. I like you, so I'd hate to see you smitten.

And, don't forget about Zeus! Zeus can-
Well, wait a minute, let me check in on Zeus...

Ah, well...he's still busy with those comely ladies. But, if he ever decides to take a break...oh, boy...your "Master of the Universe" is in for a good ***-whuppin'!

I'm not aware of any scripture that says that, Lazarus. The only thing that comes to my mind that is even anywhere close is this:

Revelation 12:7-9

"7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Since this passage refers to the angels warring with each other, and wars produce casualties, perhaps that was what you were thinking of?


This is an even bigger shot in the dark, but Jesus did say that Satan was a "murderer from the beginning." (No specific reference to angel-cide, though.)

John 8:44

"44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

That's all I can come up with off the top of my head.

Just remember what I told you about Zeus, Rooster.

And, here's something else for you to ponder:



And...

Well, welcome to the party, Sir!
Come on in...the water's fine... :)