I'm not saying I believe in the existence of a god, because I don't.
I'm mostly posting here because the atheist forums are practically dead, which I don't really understand. Over 200k posts in religion and 1k in atheist forums. How do so many people in the age of logic and reason still believe in the existence of a god?

It is written in the bible that god is a loving god, god is a forgiving god, blah blah.

But in practice, god is a vindictive god, god is a childish god and god is a cruel god.

The whole story about Noah's ark is basically a story about a god that got mad, threw a childish temper tantrum and killed everyone on the planet save a boatload of people and animals. Does that really seem like an all knowing god of great wisdom to anyone?

If anyone has seen the movie "machine gun preacher". There's a movie based on the real life of Sam Childers, a biker that found religion after he thought he killed a man then traveling to Africa and helping to save a bunch of children from a corrupt warlord. On to my point. In the movie(based on real life) you see a bunch of children in a pile that were torched to death because they tried to escape. Was that all part of gods plan, did god "love" these children in their final minutes as they were brutally burned to death and screaming? Seems like a damned sadistic god to me.

Basically what I'm saying is that if god does exist, he's pretty much using us as lab rats in his psychological experiment.
All of the good stuff and "miracles" that he's let happen really do pale in comparison to all the atrocities that he's turned a blind eye to all in favor of fulfilling his "divine plan".

In my honest opinion the novelty of "god" died off in the 20th century. I think that many of us are smart enough to come to the realization that the invention of a god in inevitable because we all fear death and therefore invent the prospect of an afterlife, and who would be powerful enough to design such a thing? "God" and only that.

But all that is self defeating, instead of confronting our fear of death and helping to seek a method of prolonging our lives through science, we run to religion which has a long standing history of stifling science.

Many people will argue the existence of a god because they feel that they've seen him in one manner or another. His face is on a door, his face was on a grilled cheese sandwich or the classic "I see it in the miracles that happen every day". Such as what? Newborn life? Every time a baby is born it's a "miracle". Well what about those born into third world countries that starve to death before they're old enough to read or what about those born into overpopulous that struggle through their entire life just trying to make ends meet(because it's a rat race just to get a job)then ultimately succumb to suicide. Was there really a point in either of those being born just to live a life of pain and suffering with no chance for a happy ending? Or perhaps people will argue the "miracles" of rain or the sun coming up each day. Nope, the sun is a giant ball of gas and the rain is just precipitation.

God exists because like an imaginary friend when we have no other, we want him to exist and if we stop believing, he will not exist.

Movies are scripted. He has a plan to all of us. If you trust in yourself then you do also trust someone who is above you.
I am not also forcing you to believe in someone you denied to believe. It will just be you and only your decision if or not to turn to HIM.

two thoughts are inspired from the op

the first is that people get hung up on God being 'loving', only with their worldly mortal idea of love,, and they forget the part about him also being 'just'


the second is that it seems to me it would be easier and more desirable for a God not to exist, for it would mean anything we can 'get away with' in the flesh we would do with no respect of consequence,,,

First in reply to Winlei. Movies are scripted, but that particular movie was based on a true story and as much as it was aimed at entertainment value, it was also aimed to open people's eyes to the everyday realities that those of us that live in first world countries rarely or never hear of. As gruesome as the event from the movie that I described was, it does happen in reality. One cannot simply wear rose colored sunglasses and expect the world to change.

In reply to msharmony's first point. Would you consider the deaths and murders of innocent children to be "just"? No matter how you describe his state of being, it comes down to a simple standing of right vs wrong. If a man whom is bulletproof stands there from start to finish watching another man shoot and kill someone then is he not just as guilty as the one that pulled the trigger?

I would have to at least partially disagree with your second point. While it has always been my personal belief that if a god did not exist then the world would(likely)be ripe with chaos for the reason you mentioned. I certainly don't think in the least that it would be easier and more desirable for a god not to exist. For starters, people are not designed to be self sustaining. I've seen even the worst of people often go to their peers to ask for advice. We crumble without the wisdom and guidance of other people.

My point being that it's 100% easier for us to follow a path laid out for us by a "god" than to thread our own path. When people do walk their own path they often end up lost and that's when they end up defaulting back to the god path. Our race is young and still learning, perhaps some of us still need the god-crutch. but as psychology and understanding of the human mind advances, eventually we'll all learn to walk our own path. One not paved with slavery, prejudice, war and murder(All things promoted and condoned by organized religion).

If a cult murdered a few dozen people that didn't follow their practices, would you follow that cult? How about a religion that murdered over 100 million people for not following their beliefs? Because the majority of Americans and Canadians already are, that religion is called Christianity. Now I'm not here to bash one religion in particular. I think most of them have committed their fair share of crimes. But Christianity really tops the cake. From be-headings of pagans(non-believers)to witch hunts(burning people at the stake)to all out wars and genocides all in the name of Christianity. And when Columbus "founded" America he slaved away the native settlers and had them converted from non-religious to Christianity. So it's a religion that's been forced upon Americans from day one, and now we brainwash our kids with it. Again I'm not saying Christianity is the worst religion by any means, I'm only using it as my primary example as it best fits my point.

We cannot just ask for a miracle in just a snap of a finger. Those barbaric actions isn't his doings but for the devil. He even gave Jesus for us, to suffer for our sins in consequence of our redemption. He has a plan, laid a path for us to follow. He is JUST in a way that he didnt just favor one of us, not the faithful, but all of us who call to him. Even jesus is not an exemption to death.

religion is a belief, it is incapable of the act of murder or any other act

as much as you believe that religion is a crutch for people to lean on to 'lay out their path' (as a christian, I have to correct you to say that I lay my own path ACCORDING to all types of factors and experiences just like anyone else,, that one of my experiences is religion makes me no better or worse than others)

it is quite true as well that non believers like to use religion as a scapegoat for humans who do terrible things,,,,

if you dont believe in something you will fall for anything
so if someone believes in a moral system that is matching the bible without ever reading it (which is quite possible), how is it any less valid than the one who has those values REINFORCED when they study religion?

religious children are no more 'brainwashed' than children who are brought up with ANY OTHER value system,,,,,

I'd have to disagree there, teaching religion to children at the earliest ages possible(as many parents do) is a form of brainwashing. There's a reason that child molestation is illegal(even the type that does not cause bodily harm). It is because young children are impressionable. It's not like the majority of children are given a choice, believe in god or don't and it is not like they are often taught the many reasons why god may not exist. They are taught one thing and one thing only, god exists, religion is infallible.
There are even a lot of parents out there that would force their children into religion(the real "bible thumper" parents)with threats of "if you don't do this, you're gonna go to hell" or even "if you turn out gay, you're gonna go to hell".

Winlei, don't get me started on Jesus, it's debatable and even probable that the man named jesus existed in that time-frame. However you must take into account that the people in that time-frame weren't exactly geniuses. For instance if you could go back to the age when Christ was around and showed off your ability to use a pack of matches, they would have burned you at the stake for being a witch.
If pen and teller we're to go back to that age and manage to bolster enough respect to not be burned at the stake, they could have posed as god's children.

Getting people to believe in the bible written religion is all a matter of convenience, like a man claiming he can turn invisible if no one is looking at him. Take note of how all the godly events took place thousands of years before the first cameras were even invented. Yet now in an age in which we could easily prove or disprove his existence if he were to send us another son or come forth himself, he's nowhere to be seen, gone like a fart in the wind. Convenience at it's best.

"it is quite true as well that non believers like to use religion as a scapegoat for humans who do terrible things,,,, " that's where the issue lies, they aren't "non-believers" they believe so strongly that they are willing to sacrifice countless lives in the name of their god/s.

You may personally lay out your own path, but what I said there was aimed more at the hardcore religious fanatics or the people that for instance are on the verge of suicide and have a religious revelation and devote their existence to god. You're right though, most people these days don't exactly do that. At best they may attend church on Sundays and pray before going to bed at night or eating a meal. Religion overall has calmed down in the last 100ish years or so, I think mostly due to easily accessible entertainment. But some people do take it more seriously than others.

"if you dont believe in something you will fall for anything" Skeptics may disagree with you on that one :P
I don't fall for anything because I'm a skeptic, I want to see hard facts before I put my metaphorical seal of approval on anything.
Religion doesn't offer hard facts, what it does offer is a lot of is "god works in mysterious ways", "god's divine plan" and "just have faith". Hard facts don't sell religion, fear does. Fear,gullibility and over-glorification. It's sold in much the same way that booze is, with commercials about partying and having a good time, ya never see a beer commercial plastered with pictures of dead bodies hanging over the hood of a car, or the corpse of a woman that was beaten to death after her husband came home drunk.

The atrocity's are never talked about, all swept under the rug or blamed on something else. What the average person knows about religion is as follows: god, Jesus, Noah's ark,Moses and the 10 commandments and that's about it in a nutshell. But then there is that oh so popular tidbit about god hating gays, funny how he loves everyone but hates gays.

"religion is a belief, it is incapable of the act of murder or any other act" That's kinda like saying a gun is an inanimate object but put it in the wrong persons hands and people end up dead. Unfortunately religion is in the hands of politicians.

I have a fairly strong moral system and I don't need an organized religion to enforce that. I know the difference between right and wrong, so what is the point of this "god" character. A moral system I believe in, fairy tails I do not.

So far I've only really touched on the lives taken directly because of religion. It cannot be overlooked that thousands of lives could have been saved if organized religion would stop stunting medical science.

"The Catholic Church is against embryonic stem-cell research because it involves the destruction of human embryos. Pope John Paul II said embryonic stem-cell research is related to abortion, euthanasia and other attacks on innocent life."

Pope John Paul is not a scientist, what's he doing commenting on scientific matters(and being damn pushy about it to boot)?

This of course is a bogus and narrow-minded argument. Is there some reason you fail to understand the ethics and moral philosophy of the ancients? They were much more "moral" than earlier Xian philosophers

Ancients? Xian philosophers? Sorry, you lost me.

Oy, Aristotle, Plato, Mendalus. Chinese, Greek, etc. Xian is the accepted abbr. for Christian.

fighting fire with fire,,,,,

nothing in this thread is any more than opinion,,,there isnt really LOGICAL argument for or against religion,,,,as noone has factual proof that there is NOT a God, and any facts proving they are can be attributed to other 'scientific' 'facts'


and no, I didnt study 'the ancients' so Im not familiar nor particularly intrested in the ehtics and moral philosophy they may have held,, I am strictly speaking about modern times and culture,,,,,and how religion relates or doesnt relate to whether someone 'needs' to believe in God,,,or 'chooses' to believe in God

let me add as well, that since I was a child, and ESPECIALLY NOW< the schools and media have PLENTY of opportunity to shed different light on morals and values than religion has, so the argument that children are 'brainwashed' by being taught religion because they are impressionable,,,,intentionally ignores all the other sources children have to 'choose' from during that impressionable age,,


there are people who mistreat and abuse their kids, some may use religion to do it,, but I dont believe the majority do (none of those I have known in 42 years have)


to base those raising children with religion on the exceptional few who mistreat children is a tired debate that those of us raised on religion to be caring and tolerant and decent (the MAJORITY I have been exposed to) find insulting and a logic we find fallacious as well,,,

i see it a little differently... most god believers use god like a spare tire, good for when you need him, and forget about it the rest of the time... then, when bad things happen, the question is usually "where was god then"...

i think the ideas of what god is are being taught wrong. god wouldn't be a loving god, but more of a fair and balanced type. meaning bad things will happen, no matter who you are, as life goes on.

The Bible is a good way to live. If you don't think so it just reflects on your poor understanding.

This is the other problem with religion, and in this case the Bible, and it goes along with the infallibility thing spoken of earlier. You CANNOT challenge it! If people ever try, it's always twisted by believers as our own failure to understand the thing like above, it's never ever ever that MAYBE what we are being told is wrong or incorrect.

Now how are you supposed to have an objective debate about the validity of something when whenever one comes up with an argument that is the response? You can't do it, the whole thing is rigged to make you look bad unless you agree with them. That is a biased system looking to support itself, not the actual truth.

What exactly are religious people afraid of? If the Bible is right as they say, if what they believe is right, then certainly the facts will prove it right? So what is the need to place the blame always on the questioner instead of the thing being questioned? Afraid of being wrong?

I think that's what it comes down to to me, they don't wanna be wrong so they shift the focus on the one making the argument instead, or even try to make excuses for the bad behavior done by their God or in the name of their God.

Catholics even have a term for this, they call it apologetics, which is basically another form of saying apology. If something is good and right it need not be apologized for. That a religion would feel the need to have a term that basically means just that, trying to justify their behavior somehow, says a lot about it.

So yeah bottom line is, you cannot have an honest discussion about this if every single time someone challenges it, you make the issue about them and not about what they are trying to argue against. You want truth? Then you'll follow it wherever it leads, even if it means you were wrong. Anything else just indicates you wanna cling to what you believe no matter what evidence is shown otherwise.

It's like arguing with a wall or a broken record.They say it's in the bible.So if you ask them what other evidence is there to support the bible they just say the bible is the evidence.It's a massive circulatory debate with theist or jesus freaks.It's not that you can't win it's that they are good at avoiding the question with circulatory answers.
First thing the survivors of the Oklahoma tornadoes will say."Thank God".My opinion of that whole event was their imaginary being they worship said "ooops,oh well s h i t happens""

All the new testament is is part 2 of the old testament for propaganda to get followers and it uses the messiah events from the old testament to make an guy look like the messiah and then throw around an apocalypse is gonna happen and if you don't follow this messiahs teachings "then may "I AM" have mercy on your soul."
It's just propaganda the author or authors used to get people to join their ministries.Hell Peter,John the Baptist,John all were created in the story to scare people into following their beliefs by saying "the end is coming" good will be fighting evil"
Unfortunately 2,000 years later and no apocalypse,people still fall for it.
Oh please don't get me started on part 3 of the old testament called the quran.

well, (for believers) we will know for sure when it happens , judgment day

for unbelievers, you will know for sure IF it finally happens


absence of 'proof' is not proof of absence,,,,

Exhibit A of circulatory answers.

"absence of 'proof' is not proof of absence,,,,"


And you still owe me organ lessons...

lol,, is it not true?

how long before they had 'proof' the world wasnt flat?

didnt make it any less true though,,,,


im a little out of practice on the organ,, perhaps vocal lessons though,,,

I keep reminding you of the organ lessons because i have made circulatory statements reminding you for what,a year or so may be longer.....Now it's turned into a vocal thingy,i'm shocked and stimulated at the same time.Meaning you can sing to me or vocal me anytime