False prophets would be humans.

Besides, the idea that any conscious being would be tormented for ever and ever is an insane idea, IMHO.

There would simply be no sane reason for it.

If it doesn't SERVE GOD, then why bother with it?

And the only way it could SERVE GOD, is if the God was somehow pleased by it. Otherwise there would be no justification for it.

I can't believe that you can even support such a horrid notion as eternal suffering for any conscious entity.

I don't care how 'evil' an entity is, if it has to be destroyed for the safety of others so be it. But even I wouldn't wish eternal punishment on even an 'evil' entity.

Yet you expect me to believe that a "God" would.

Sorry, your picture of God is not inviting to me in the slightest.

False PROPHET, not prophet(s). And the eternal punishment is the punishment put on Satan. It's not a punishment for correction, just flat out punishment for what he has done on Earth and Heaven.

And if you read, the false prophet isn't specifically a man of this Earth.

Description of the false prophet -
Revelations 13:11
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Who is "we".

Speak for yourself buddy. There's no need to get rude and start slinging personal insults.

There is nothing "conceited" about not condoning the eternal torturing of conscious beings.

If the God of the religion you support is "beneath" that, then don't use that to try to insult me. It's the religion you're supporting has the unjustifiably cruel and ruthless God.

I'm sorry that it bothers you that I'm above that.

And I'm truly sorry to hear that you're not.



Well, then fine. According to you, then, there is no "damnation" that I need to be "saved" from.

So the only thing I would need to be "saved" from would be mortal death. However, according to you, in order to be saved from this mortal death, I would need to worship and obey this insanely mentally ill God who thrives on punishing people for every little thing.

In that case, I would actually prefer to be "saved" from having to worship this demon.

So all you are telling me that if I refuse to believe in this religion I will actually obtain TRUE SALVATION and be free from the whole ignorant shebang.

In other words, all you are telling me is that if I choose to believe in atheism then I will be correct, because for me, that's precisely the way reality will be. I will just die when I die like the atheists believe.

If that's the case with your religion, then it best that I don't believe in it.

Then I will truly be "Saved" from everything. No worries about eternal damnation, and no worries about having to worship a sick cruel demented egotistical God.

In other words, I politely decline the offer of your hateful vengeful God and willfully accept the everlasting peace of non-existence.

This explains a lot right here.

Evidently you condone punishment just for the sake of punishment itself. With no need to consider whether or not it has any positive constructive or useful purpose.

I don't condone that mentality in men or in gods.

So that's clearly a HUGE point that we will never see eye-to-eye on.

You will be able to see "justification" in things that I could never see justification in.

~~~~~

Also, if you think that way yourself, then it's not surprising that you can imagine a God thinking that way.

But since I can't think that way myself, there's no reason why I should believe that a God should think that way.

No offense, but I personally don't think much of anyone who condones punishment just for the sake of punishment.

I also don't feel that punishment is a very effective tool even when used for purposes of "correction". But at least in that case there's an attempt to get something positive out of it, even if it's not the best way to go about it.

But punishment just for the sake of punishment is a totally senseless concept as far as I'm concerned.

So we would never be able to agree on that point alone evidently.

You should run for government and rid the USA of the death penalty then.

I count 34 states that still have the death penalty.

I said no insult nor was I rude. One believing them self greater then another is egotistical. You said it yourself multiple times that you were greater then God.

That would be the draconian rebel element from Orion. They call it the red dragon.

And so no one starts to think we're talking about some fantasy kind of thing. A couple of the definitions of "dragon" is as follows. Will give a better understanding of what's being said in these verses.

3
: a violent, combative, or very strict person

5
: something or someone formidable or baneful

In the Bible the red dragon is connected to Satan and the fallen angels.

(Satan and the fallen angels are the draconian rebel force from Orion.)---> or in Christian terms: The war in heaven. The rebels.

The white dragon would be the Female draconian queen who is worshiped as the "Goddess" and is the feminine element I believe.

These are mythologically giving man the knowledge and the force to reach divinity.

Dragon Rouge:
Magic · Occultism · Gothicism http://www.dragonrouge.net/english/general.htm

Sure you did, you said:



Thinking highly of one's own moral values can hardly be equated to conceitedness.



I would hope that everyone thinks highly of their own moral values.



I have never claimed to be "greater than God".

That's your delusion.

It's my position that we can know that these fables of a fictitious God that are written in the bible are necessarily false because the moral standards of those fables aren't even as high as the moral standards of many humans, (myself included). No conceit in that.

We dismiss the fables of Zeus along the same lines.

It's my position that these biblical fables cannot be true because in order for them to be true are creator would need to be far less moral than us (or at least less moral than some of us). Obviously there are immoral people too.

So when I say that I have higher moral values than the biblical God, or that the Biblical God has lesser moral values than myself, what I am actually saying is that it's crystal clear that these fables are false, because it would be impossible for me to have higher moral values than a real God.

Thus the biblical fables can't be true, because I clearly have higher moral values than the fictitious God depicted in those fables.

That's my whole point.

Like Jeanniebean has already pointed out, your mind is closed and locked like a vault.

You are so convinced that the biblical picture of God is true, that you don't even understand that when people point out flaws in this picture of God they are doing so because they are convinced that no God could be that absurd, immortal, or stupid.

I'm not saying that "God" is absurd, immoral, or stupid. I'm simply saying that the Hebrew fables of God are absurd, immoral, and stupid, and thus they cannot possibly have any validity as being a correct picture of God.

You then try to TWIST that around to proclaiming that I arrogantly think that I'm greater than God.



No, that's silly.

Of course not.

I'm dismissing the validity of the Hebrew picture of God.

I'm not belittling any actual "God".

If a God actually exists I imagine it to be far wiser than those ancient male-chauvinistic Hebrews.

We keep entertaining your position that the Hebrew picture of God might somehow be true. And we try to work around that for YOUR SAKE.

We try to show you why not real God could be that lame.

You keep defending that it should be alright for a God to be that messed up.

But no one is claiming to be greater than "God".

We're just dismissing absurd fables is all.

~~~~~

I imagine also, that you probably have the mindset that, either the biblical picture of God is true, or there is no God at all and atheism would be the only other alternative.

Thus, from your perspective there are no other "choices", it's either believe in the biblical God or face atheism which you probably couldn't handle.

I don't have that problem in two ways.

First, I can actually accept an atheistic reality if that is indeed the truth. That's not going to devastate me.

Secondly, I have no problem considering far greater pictures of God than what the Hebrews came up with. So I'm not limited to considering only the Abrahamic picture of God or atheism.

I have absolutely no problem embracing Mysticism (or a mystical view of God). This mystical view of God is quite abstract, and clearly a mystery. But I have no problem accepting that. After all, if God truly is far above humans then why limit him to being a jealous male-chauvinistic human-like dictator?

Why not think of God as being something far greater than we can even begin to imagine? In other words, let your imagination GO. This of the most PERFECT vision of a God that you can possibly imagine, and then STOP! Then REALIZE that God would be even GREATER than your FEEBLE imagination!!!!

Well, I can imagine a God FAR GREATER than what the Hebrews imagined God to be like. So why should I allow God to be limited by their imagination?

If I'm going to believe in a God I may as well believe in a truly awesome God.

Anything short of that I may as well go with atheism.


So no Cowboy, I don't think I'm greater than God. But I certainly do hope that I'm wiser and more intelligent than a bunch of male-chauvinist Hebrews that ran around stoning each other to death for sins and were nailing people to poles for blaspheme in the name of a jealous egotistical God who refuses to have any other Gods placed before him.

It's the Hebrew fables that I dismiss as being beneath me Cowboy. And thus they cannot possibly be the "Word" of any all-wise supreme being.

So I'm not claiming to be greater than "God"

I'm just dismissing absurd fables for being inferior to even my own mere mortal human values.

Thinking highly of one is one thing, seeing one as greater then another is another thing. You've stated multiple times for you to accept Jesus, you would have to lower your standards, and or for you to obey the law's given to us, would be lowering your standards. This is conceitedness, this is thinking you are the greatest, at least in comparison with the subject at hand.

For you to have to "lower" your standards, would be claiming your standards are higher then that of which we speak, and to claim your standards are higher infers the other is lower and or less then yours.

I do think highly of my moral values, but I don't see them as greater, better, or anything of such then another person's moral values.

But I am done with this conversation, it's moot, pointless, irrelevant, and a waste of time.

Cowboy, you have fallen into the horrible trap of thinking that if you can't convince someone of your religious beliefs you then need to degrade them, and belittle them, or discredit them in some way.

You are also grossly wrong in the conclusions that you JUMP to.

You stated, "You've stated multiple times for you to accept Jesus, you would have to lower your standards, and or for you to obey the law's given to us, would be lowering your standards. This is conceitedness, this is thinking you are the greatest, at least in comparison with the subject at hand."

There you go trying to use Jesus as a battering ram again.

We aren't talking about "accepting Jesus" here (especially the moral values that Jesus himself supposedly taught).

Contrary to your outright LIES here, I have stated repeatedly that I am in total agreement with the moral values that Jesus is said to have taught.

So this has absolutely nothing at all to do with the moral standards or values of Jesus.

What I reject is the idea that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God sent to be crucified to pay for our sins. That is the immorality that I object too. And from my point of view this is not objecting to the moral values of any "God". On the contrary, it is my very reason for rejecting that rumor as having anything to do with any God. It simply isn't sane or moral, IMHO.

I make no apologies for that, I feel grossly sorry for you if you feel that having someone beaten and nailed to a pole would somehow be a morally righteous way of 'paying' for anything.

So this isn't about Jesus at all. It's actually an objection to using Jesus as an excuse to support the dastardly religion that Jesus himself appears to have actually rejected in terms of moral standards.

Do the rumors of Jesus even claim anywhere that Jesus taught anyone that they should view the Torah as the "Word of God"?

Certainly not that I know of. In fact, the gospels have Jesus referring to the Torah as "Your Law" when he speaks to the Pharisees about the Torah, not as "God's Law". He also calls the scribes (the keepers of the Torah) and the Pharisees (the overseers of the Torah) hypocrites.

Far more importantly Jesus taught totally opposite values that had been taught in the Torah.

The Torah taught people to that God condones the seeking of revenge as in "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". Jesus taught precisely the OPPOSITE. Jesus taught people to turn the other cheek, and to forgive those who trespass against them.

I agree with the moral values of Jesus. I don't need to "accept" them since they are already in harmony with my own personal moral standards. I can hardly "accept" moral values that I already hold myself.

But I most certainly reject the immoral values that had been attributed to the God of Abraham, as did Jesus apparently.

The Torah had people judging each other to be 'sinners' and commanded them to stone sinners to death, and to also kill heathens. Jesus rejected those immoral practices as well, and instead taught precisely the OPPOSITE. Jesus taught people not to judge others and not to cast stones at other people.

So once again, I'm already in agreement with the moral values that have been associated with Jesus. It's the immoral values that were taught in the name of the God of Abraham that I reject, just as Jesus did.

~~~~~

I have no problem with the moral standards that Jesus himself is said to have taught. In fact, I have stated endlessly that I believe that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist who was clearly teaching the far higher moral standards of Buddhism and rejecting the moronic ignorance that had been taught in the Torah.

So I'm actually in agreement with the moral values of Jesus, and I'm also in agreement with Jesus' rejection of the immorality that had been taught in the Torah.

So it is totally ignorant of you to try to use Jesus as a battering ram to belittle me in the name of "Christianity".

~~~~~~

Where does Christianity fail?

Well, it fails because it tries to make out like Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of this immoral God of the Old Testament. A God that apparently Jesus himself didn't even agree with when it came to moral values.

Christianity tries to hold Jesus up as a battering ram to support the ignorance of the Old Testament, such as things like "God hates homosexuality", or that punishments and/or having someone crucified on a pole is somehow "righteous".

That's baloney.

Also, where did Jesus ever predict the coming of Paul to finishing teaching his message? Paul is the author of about 75% of the material in the Christian New Testament. And most of what Paul does is dredge up things from the Torah, or Old Testament and proclaim them to be "God's Will" in Jesus' name.

That's baloney too!

Jesus never prophesied that he would send some guy named Paul to challenge his moral standards and replace them with the immoral standards of the Torah. Standards, that Jesus clearly worked very hard to reject and replace with far higher moral standards.

~~~~~~~

You're just being ignorant yourself in attempting to use Jesus as a battering ram against me simply because I refuse to allow Jesus to be used an an excuse to support the immoral things that Jesus himself clearly rejected.

Jesus was a VICTIM of the Abrahamic religion. He was an activist who spoke out against the immoralities of that religion, and it was the teachings of that religion that allowed the pharisees to incite a mob to have Jesus crucified are charges of blaspheme against God.

It was the very religion that Jesus spoke out against that became his demise.

And then, after Jesus was nailed to the pole and SILENCED via his death, the rumors that ended up becoming the New Testament were created and used to metaphorically nail Jesus to the Torah. Jesus was then used as an excuse to support things like "God hates homosexuality", and "God hates heathens", etc.

I don't reject Jesus at all.

On the contrary, I reject the very same kinds of immoral mentalities that Jesus himself rejected.

When you use Jesus as a battering ram to insult people who refuse to accept the immoral crap that Jesus himself taught against, you are actually "nailing Jesus to the Pole of the Torah".

~~~~~~

I have no problem with Jesus, Cowboy.

But I have HUGE problems with Christianity.

~~~~~~

This may very well be something that you are not even capable of or willing to understand.

I don't renounce Jesus, and anyone who uses Jesus as a battering ram to try to belittle me is grossly out of line, and they have not understood my position.

And unfortunately this is what Christianity has come to represent. Nothing more than a religion that uses Jesus as a battering ram to belittle anyone who refuses to buy into the whole Christian religion.

~~~~~

I renounce the immoral things that the Old Testament associates with "God". Punishing women with painful Childbirth because of mistakes made by Eve. Allowing things to get so far out of control that he feels that he needs to drown his entire creation save for a few "sinners" that he saves by "grace". Having his own son crucified as a sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of man.

~~~~~

Are any of those things associated with the moral values that Jesus taught?

Absolutely NOT.

So how dare you throw Jesus in my face as a battering ram just because I refuse to buy into your highly immoral and hypocritical religion.

As far as I'm concerned Jesus was a Hebrew who saw the wisdom in Mahayana Buddhism and tried to find a way to teaching higher moral values to his brothers and sisters. He could see the that the Torah was baloney, (or at least highly corrupted), but he couldn't just come out and renounce the Torah. So he did the best he could do with what he had to work with.

Unfortunately his objections to the immoral teachings of the Torah ultimately got him crucified in the name of the God of the Torah. And then extremely unfortunately he was metaphorically crucified a second time when he was nailed to the Torah itself by being proclaimed to have been the sacrificial lamb of the God of the Torah.

This is probably the saddest event in all of human history.

That's my position. So don't ever try to use Jesus as a battering ram to belittle me Cowboy. If anything, I stand up for Jesus far more than the Christians do.

And ironically I respect Jesus as a mortal man for what he tried to do. A lot of "Christians" have told me that if they discovered that Jesus was a mere mortal man they would crucify him themselves. They would have absolutely no respect for the man if he was a mere mortal man.

When I ask why, they reply, "He would no longer be able to keep his promise of eternal life".



That's pretty sad don't you think?

Just goes to show that they have no love for Jesus at all. All they are truly interested in is the eternal life that he supposedly offers as a GIFT.

I love Jesus even if the world is purely atheistically and godless.

Can you say the same thing?

ITS CHURCH DAY, ITS CHURCH DAY...

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, ITS CHURCH DAY!!

an absurd statement. firstly, the death penalty is not punishment for the sake of punishment which is the comment you replied to cowboy. secondly, i too am against the death penalty but i at least realize that nobody who might 'run for government' would ever be in a position to have the power to 'rid the usa of the death penalty.' the only government body that could do that and has in the past done that is the supreme court made up of nine justices none of whom 'ran for government.'

Church is religion.

If anything, it's a day to rest and meditate.

And as far as being a "holy day", well gee whiz, shouldn't every day be a holy day for a truly spiritual person?

Why should weekdays be weak spiritually?

I personally prefer to avoid bars and churches. I don't care for either one.

............Question: "What is God's relationship to time?"............


Answer: We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time. However, God dwells in a different dimension—the spirit realm—beyond the perception of our physical senses. It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of His not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world (Isaiah 57:15). Knowing that “God is spirit” (John 4:24), what is His relationship to time?

In Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple yet profound analogy in describing the timelessness of God: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.” The eternity of God is contrasted with the temporality of man. Our lives are but short and frail, but God does not weaken or fail with the passage of time.

In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:8, cautioned his readers not to let this one critical fact escape their notice—that God’s perspective on time is far different from mankind’s (Psalm 102:12, 24-27). The Lord does not count time as we do. He is above and outside of the sphere of time. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future. The time that passes on earth is of no consequence from God’s timeless perspective. A second is no different from an eon; a billion years pass like seconds to the eternal God.

Though we cannot possibly comprehend this idea of eternity or the timelessness of God, we in our finite minds try to confine an infinite God to our time schedule. Those who foolishly demand that God operate according to their time frame ignore the fact that He is the “High and Lofty One . . . who lives forever” (Isaiah 57:15). This description of God is far removed from man’s condition: “The length of our days is seventy years—or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away” (Psalm 90:10).

Again, because of our finite minds, we can only grasp the concept of God’s timeless existence in part. And in so doing, we describe Him as a God without a beginning or end, eternal, infinite, everlasting, etc. Psalm 90:2 declares, “From everlasting to everlasting You are God” (see also Psalm 93:2). He always was and always will be.

So, what is time? To put it simply, time is duration. Our clocks mark change or, more precisely, our timepieces are benchmarks of change that indicate the passage of time. We could say, then, that time is a necessary precondition for change and change is a sufficient condition to establish the passage of time. In other words, whenever there’s change of any kind we know that time has passed. We see this as we go through life, as we age. And we cannot recover the minutes that have passed by.

Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter. As such, time exists when matter exists. But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter. The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him.

And this brings us to the meaning of the word “eternity.” “Eternity” is a term used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning. God has no beginning or end. He is outside the realm of time. Eternity is not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it (Isaiah 57:15). Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Upon the completion of His creation activity, including the creation of time, what did God conclude? “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good” (Gen 1:31). Indeed, God is spirit in the realm of timelessness, rather than flesh in the sphere of time.

As believers, we have a deep sense of comfort knowing that God, though timeless and eternal, is in time with us right now; He is not unreachably transcendent, but right here in this moment with us. And because He’s in this moment, He can respond to our needs and prayers.



....................................................................

....................................................................



............Question: "What does it mean that God is eternal?"............


Answer: The word eternal means "everlasting, having no beginning and no end." Psalm 90:2 tells us about God’s eternality: “Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.” Since humans measure everything in time, it is very hard for us to conceive of something that had no beginning, but has always been, and will continue forever. However, the Bible does not try to prove God’s existence or His eternality, but simply begins with the statement “In the beginning God…” (Genesis 1:1), indicating that at the beginning of recorded time, God was already in existence. From duration stretching backward without limit to duration stretching forward without limit, from eternal ages to eternal ages, God was and is forever.

When Moses was commissioned by God to go to the Israelites with a message from Him, Moses wondered what he would tell them if they asked him what God’s name was. God’s reply is most revealing: “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you'" (Exodus 3:14). This signifies the real being of God, His self-existence, and that He is the Being of beings. It also describes His eternality and immutability, as well as His constancy and faithfulness in fulfilling His promises, because it includes all time, past, present, and future. The sense is, not only I am what I am at present, but I am what I have been, and I am what I shall be, and shall be what I am. God’s own words about His eternality speak to us from the pages of Scripture.

Jesus Christ, God incarnate, also verified His deity and His eternality to the people of His day by declaring to them, “Before Abraham was born, I AM” (John 8:58). It is clear that Jesus was claiming to be God in flesh because the Jews, upon hearing this statement, tried to stone Him to death. To the Jews, declaring oneself to be the eternal God was blasphemy worthy of death (Leviticus 24:16). Jesus was claiming to be eternal, just as His Father is eternal. This was declared again by John regarding the nature of Christ: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). From before recorded time, Jesus and His Father were one in essence, and sharing equally in the attribute of eternality.

Romans 1:20 tells us that God’s eternal nature and His eternal power are revealed to us through His creation. All men see and understand this aspect of God’s nature by the witness of the various aspects of the created order. The sun and heavenly bodies continue in their orbits century after century. The seasons come and go in their appointed time; the trees produce leaves in spring and drop them in the fall. Year after year these things continue, and no one can stop them or alter God’s plan. All of this attests to God’s eternal power and plan for the earth. One day, He will create a new heaven and new earth and they, like Him, will continue into eternity. We who belong to Christ through faith will continue through eternity as well, sharing the eternality of our God in whose image we are created.

.....................................................................

.....................................................................



............Question: "What does it mean that God is transcendent?"............



Answer: To transcend means ‘to exist above and independent from; to rise above, surpass, succeed.’ By this definition, God is the only truly transcendent Being. The ‘LORD God Almighty’ (in Hebrew, El Shaddai) created all things on the earth, beneath the earth and in the heavens above, yet He exists above and independent from them. All things are upheld by His mighty power (Hebrews 1:3), and yet He is upheld by Himself alone. The whole universe exists in Him and for Him that He may receive glory, honor and praise.

Being transcendent, God is both the unknown and unknowable, and yet God continually seeks to reveal Himself to His creation, i.e., the unknown seeks to be known. Here is a paradox. Being transcendent, God is the incomprehensible Creator existing outside of space and time and thus is unknowable and unsearchable. Neither by an act of our will nor by our own reasoning can we possibly come to understand God or experience him personally. God wants us to seek to know Him, and yet how can the finite possibly know and understand the infinite when our minds and thoughts are so far beneath His (Isaiah 55:8-9)? The answer lies in Romans 11:33-36: “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God. How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him is the glory forever!”

Another aspect of God’s transcendent nature that places Him beyond the reach of His creation is His holiness and His righteousness. Because of man’s proclivity to sin and his desire for wickedness, he is denied the right to enter God’s presence. God has no choice but to turn His face away from us like He did with Moses when he asked to see God’s glory. God told Moses, "You cannot see my face, for no one may see my face and live" (Exodus 33:20). To see the fullness of the glory of God would be too much for any human to bear; it would break the earthen vessels in pieces. The full revelation of God is therefore reserved for the future, when all things will be seen as they are, and men will be in a condition to receive them.

The prophet Isaiah realized the necessity of God remaining aloof from His creation: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away because of our sins” (Isaiah 64:6-7). A transcendent God must turn His face away, for He is forced by His very righteousness and holiness to keep Himself separate from anything or anyone sinful, impure, unclean or less than perfect. However, besides being transcendent, God also possesses immanence (nearness), and it is in His immanence that God chooses to draw near to His creation.

This, too, is a paradox. “‘Am I only a God nearby,’ declares the LORD, ‘and not a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?’ declares the LORD. ‘Do I not fill heaven and earth?’ declares the LORD" (Jeremiah 23:23-24). God’s transcendent nature strives to keep Him distant and remote from His creation both in space and time, and yet on the other hand, His immanent nature works to draw Him near to His creation and to sustain the universe. God’s love for His creation is so great that we see His immanence overshadowing His transcendence. This becomes clearly visible in His incarnate son, Jesus Christ, as He breaks through the barrier of sin and separation to draw all mankind back into a close personal relationship. As well, we see God not only choosing to ‘just’ draw near to His creation but to personally come into the hearts and minds of His people through the indwelling power of his Holy Spirit. This is the miracle of God’s transcendence.



.....................................................................

.....................................................................




............Question: "What does it mean that God is infinite?"............



Answer: The infinite nature of God simply means that God exists outside of and is not limited by time or space. Infinite simply means “without limits.” When we refer to God as "infinite," we generally refer to Him with terms like omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence.

Omniscience means that God is all-knowing or that He has unlimited knowledge. His infinite knowledge is what qualifies Him as sovereign ruler and judge over all things. Not only does God know everything that will happen, but He also knows all things that could have possibly happened. Nothing takes God by surprise, and no one can hide sin from Him. There are many verses in the Bible where God reveals this aspect of His nature. One such verse is 1 John 3:20: “...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.”

Omnipotence means that God is all-powerful or that He has unlimited power. Having all power is significant because it establishes God’s ability to carry out His sovereign will. Because God is omnipotent and has infinite power, nothing can stop His decreed will from happening, and nothing can thwart or stop His divine purposes from being fulfilled. There are many verses in the Bible where God reveals this aspect of His nature. One such verse is Psalm 115:3: “But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” Or when answering His disciples' question “Then who can be saved?” (Matthew 19:25), Jesus says, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).

Omnipresence means that God is always present. There is no place that you could go to escape God’s presence. God is not limited by time or space. He is present at every point of time and space. God’s infinite presence is significant because it establishes that God is eternal. God has always existed and will always exist. Before time began, God was. Before the world or even matter itself was created, God was. He has no beginning or end, and there was never a time He did not exist, nor will there be a time when He ceases to exist. Again, many verses in the Bible reveal this aspect of God’s nature to us, and one of them is Psalm 139:7-10: “Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Thy hand will lead me, And Thy right hand will lay hold of me.”

Because God is infinite, He is also said to be transcendent, which simply means that God is exceedingly far above creation and is both greater than creation and independent of it. What this means is that God is so infinitely above and beyond us and our ability to fully comprehend that, had He not revealed Himself, we would not know or understand what He is like. But, thankfully, God has not left us ignorant about Himself. Instead, He has revealed Himself to us through both general revelation (creation and our conscience) and special revelation (the written Word of God, the Bible, and the living Word of God, Jesus Christ). Therefore, we can know God, and we can know how to be reconciled to Him and how to live according to His will. Despite the fact that we are finite and God is infinite, we can know and understand God as He has revealed Himself to us.



.....................................................................

.....................................................................

I'm against the death 'penalty', especially in terms of a 'punishment' as in "Capital Punishment".

I'm especially against cruel and unusual forms of punishment such as an electric chair or gas chamber. If they are going to put someone down at least use a form of lethal injection and put them to sleep with an anesthetic even before that.

However, having said that, I'm not against euthanasia under certain circumstances.

When it comes to dealing with dangerous people, the simple fact remains that we must protect society from those people. So they must be 'removed' from society. Thus incarceration itself should not even be thought of as 'punishment', but rather as a safety precaution for the innocent people who might otherwise be harmed by dangerous people.

So I don't even condone incarceration as a form of "punishment". Yet we must still incarcerate people to protect society. None the less, there's no need for us to view this process as "punishment".

~~~~

My stance is that almost anyone who does something horrific is basically mentally ill to begin with. Either that or they had been erroneously taught by their religion that doing horrible things is God's will. (such as in the case of Jihad suicide bombers).

Society and religion can be as much a cause of violence as anything else.

And then of course there's the mental illness issue too.

In fact, it's pretty hard for me to imagine a normally "healthy" person choosing to go out and do horrible violent things.

That doesn't make any sense to me at all. So just about everyone who does something truly horrible is most likely either mentally ill, or has been convinced of some weird religious ideals that make them think that they are doing violent things to serve their God.

~~~~~

As far as distraught people who react under extreme pressure (such as a woman murdering her abusive husband), I would personally deem that person to be reacting in "self-defense" and those issues are extremely difficult to deal with, I confess that.

Nothing is ever simple that's for sure.

But yes I would vote against capital "punishment", although I would support euthanasia in certain circumstances, so there's fine line there too.

It's clearly not an easy issue to deal with in any case.

............Is the God of the Old Testament a Merciless Monster?............

by Robin Schumacher


ABSTRACT: Non-Christians sometimes assert that God is portrayed in the Old Testament as a cruel and ruthless deity that indiscriminately orders the execution of seemingly innocent men, women, and children, or directly carries out their deaths by various means. Such a God, the argument goes, in no way represents the loving Creator or Father figure that the New Testament offers, and should in no way be worshipped or venerated. However, a closer examination of Yahweh in the Old Testament refutes the charge of the Creator being a tyrant and instead reveals a righteous, patient, merciful, and loving God who does indeed mirror the picture painted by Jesus and the rest of the New Testament writers.

Introduction
In his book The God Delusion, atheist Richard Dawkins writes a scathing rendition of God as he sees Him in the Old Testament. Dawkins says: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”1 Such words are echoed by atheist Charles Templeton who states: “The God of the Old Testament is utterly unlike the God believed in by most practicing Christians … His justice is, by modern standards, outrageous…. He is biased, querulous, vindictive, and jealous of his prerogatives.”2

What is it in the Old Testament that elicits such strong language from Dawkins and Templeton who want nothing to do with God? Are such portrayals of God accurate? Does the Old Testament paint a picture of God as nothing more than a cosmic bully with a hair trigger who is ready to torture or end the lives of anyone who so much as neglects a seemingly small request of Heaven?

The answers to these questions are critical because Christians today are quick to tell unbelievers about a God of love who is patient, forgiving, and slow to anger. Is there a disconnect between what Christians profess about God vs. what is actually recorded in the first thirty-nine books of the Bible?

A Brief Look at Some Old Testament Examples
The adversaries of God’s depiction in the Old Testament point to a number of Biblical references that seem to portray the Creator in a bad light. For example, front and center in their arguments is the Genesis flood that erased all life from earth except for one particular family: “Behold, I [God], even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish." (Gen. 6:17). From this verse, it is crystal clear that it is God Himself who is choosing to cause the deaths of untold numbers of men, women, and children.

Later in Genesis is found the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and all its people via a direct supernatural act of God: “Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground" (Gen. 19:24-25).

Charges of genocide are very common among the critics of God, with Israel’s charge of what to do with existing people in the promised land being called out as an example: “When the Lord your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you, and when the Lord your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them” (Deut. 7:1-2, emphasis added). To the skeptic, it seems plain that God is ordering the deaths of innocent people whose only crime is living in the land that He wants Israel to possess. This is reiterated several chapters later in the same Old Testament book: “Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the Lord your God has commanded you” (Deut. 20:16-17, emphasis added).

Critics also point to the overthrow of Jericho and the violent nature of how it was carried out: "They [Israel] utterly destroyed everything in the city [Jericho], both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword" (Joshua 6:21). The seemingly merciless nature of God’s similar forms of extermination is also decried in God’s command to Saul in the Old Testament to wipe out the people of Amalek: “Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:3, emphasis added). Why, the critic asks, did the children and even animals have to be killed in the Jericho and Saul campaigns? Certainly such treatment appears extreme and ruthless, doesn’t it? Referencing such events, Robert Anton Wilson states: “The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer.”3

In addition to these examples, various Old Testament personalities – ones who God seemingly approved of and helped – are targeted by the Bible’s detractors. For example, in the book of Judges, the story of Samson is relayed, including an episode where Samson is about to be married and makes a bet with thirty men who are to be part of the event. After he loses the bet and is forced to make good on it (he must provide thirty sets of clothes to them), Samson goes down to Ashkelon and kills thirty ‘innocent’ men for their garments: “Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of them and took their spoil and gave the changes of clothes to those who told the riddle. And his anger burned, and he went up to his father's house” (Judges 14:19). As can be seen in the first part of the verse, God’s Spirit enables Samson to carry out this act – how could such a thing be empowered by a God of mercy and love asks the critic?

A Response to Critics’ Objections
From the above examples, it would seem that those questioning God’s justice, love, and mercy have a fairly solid position in their complaints. However, let’s now dig a little deeper into each example and see if there isn’t more to each story than what appears on the surface when single sets of verses are clipped from the text and used to attack the character of God.

The Genesis Flood
In Genesis 6, God’s judgment upon the world at large is found in these words: “The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them”" (Gen. 6:7). While the universal flood certainly seems extreme on the surface, there are a number of factors that should be kept in mind.

First, the Bible makes it clear that violence and evil had grown to be extremely pervasive so that it literally touched everything and everyone that existed at that time. Genesis 6:5 states: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” The author of the Pentateuch indicates that some of the sin was sexual in nature (cf. Gen. 6:1-2), and that the evil permeated and filled the earth. This erases the argument that God drowned ‘innocent’ people in the flood that He brought.

Next, during the construction of the ark, which lasted at least 100 years, Noah is described as a ‘preacher of righteousness’ (cf. 2 Pet. 2:5) to the people around him. This means the people had 100 or so years to listen to the message of Noah and repent of the sin that was bringing the flood waters upon them. So in the end, we find God using His messenger to proclaim the truth of repentance and judgment before a fully corrupt culture that refused to be moved even after 100 years of being exposed to it. And we find God’s mercy being displayed on the one family who followed and obeyed what God had commanded.

Sodom and Gomorrah
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is covered in Genesis 19, however what is oftentimes overlooked are the mentions of those two cities in Genesis prior to their judgment. In Genesis 13, Abraham and his nephew Lot separate from one another because their flocks had grown too large for the land they both lived in. Lot chose to move into an area Genesis describes as “like the garden of the Lord (Gen. 13:10)," which was the area of Sodom. In spite of the wickedness that already existed in the city (cf. Gen. 13:13), God still blessed the land in which they were living, Illustrating what is sometimes called His common grace, which causes His rain to fall on the just and unjust (cf. Matt. 5:45).

God also provided for their rescue from harm as well as spiritual instruction. Genesis 14 chronicles the story of Sodom and Gomorrah’s war, initial defeat, and plunder by rival kings, but then also details how Abraham rescued Lot who had been taken captive and others who had been with him. It also speaks about how Melchizedek came out to meet the king of Sodom, as well as Abraham whom he blessed. From this it seems plausible to believe that the people of that land had been exposed to God’s truth by Melchizedek, and perhaps others, for about 25 years.

But even though they lived in a land blessed by God, were rescued from enemies by God’s servant, and had been given spiritual truth by God’s priest, the people chose to live sinfully before their Creator. Genesis 13:13 says, “Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the Lord.” Later, in Genesis 18, the Bible records God as declaring, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave (Gen. 18:20).

Yet, the writer of Genesis then details an interesting conversation between God and Abraham. As God contemplates carrying out judgment against the cities, Abraham asks if God would dare destroy good people with the bad. He then begins to whittle down a hypothetical number of good people left in the city of Sodom, starting with fifty and ending with ten, asking after each amount if God would still destroy the city if that particular number of good people resided within its walls. In the end, God says He would not destroy the city if He could find at least ten good people within it.

But in Genesis 19, two angels come into the city and are sheltered by Lot. The Scripture then says this: “Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them" (Gen. 19:4-5, emphasis added). The writer is careful to note that the evil men were both young and old and came from everywhere. Evidently the required ten righteous men could not be found and God acted in judgment upon the evil culture. Lot and his family, however, are rescued from the coming judgment and escape it.

The account of Sodom and Gomorrah, which culminates in the encounter involving Lot, the angels, and the men of the city is a vivid description of the type of pervasive evil that causes God to act after He blesses circumstances, rescues from harm, and gives spiritual guidance. The New Testament refers to the destruction of these cities as an example of judgment yet to come (cf. 2 Peter 2.6) with the sexual perversion aspect of the sin being specifically cited (cf. Jude 7).

The Destruction of Jericho
Critics of God’s actions in the Old Testament specifically cite the following verse as a perfect example of ‘overkill’ in how God dealt with Israel’s enemies: "They [Israel] utterly destroyed everything in the city [Jericho], both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword" (Joshua 6:21). How, they ask, could God look with approval on the death of women and young people?

The answer to that question, and the overall justification for the destruction of Jericho, becomes more clear when one does a little research on the Canaanites who populated the city.
Canaan, who was a descendant of Ham (cf. Gen. 10:6), was cursed by Noah for an act that Scripture is not too clear about (cf. Gen. 9:20-25). His descendants became an incredibly sinful people who practiced extreme cruelty, incest, idolatry, bestiality, homosexuality, cultic prostitution, and child sacrifice (by throwing their own children into altars of fire). God warned Israel to not mimic Canaan’s ways: “When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer” (Deut. 18:9-10).

And yet, unfortunately, Scripture records that Israel failed to remove Canaan fully from the land given to her by God and suffered the consequences of their disobedience: "They did not destroy the peoples, as the Lord commanded them, but they mingled with the nations and learned their practices, and served their idols, which became a snare to them. They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; and the land was polluted with the blood. Thus they became unclean in their practices, and played the harlot in their deeds" (Psalm 106:36-39). Only a complete removal would do, with even the animals needing to be killed, likely due to the practice of bestiality.

The only ones saved were the prostitute Rahab and her household, which helped Israel in the attack on Jericho. This is an interesting point in that Rahab knew of Israel’s victories and the blessings of God upon the nation. If she knew of Israel’s fame, then it is reasonable to assume the rest of the city knew it as well. They could have easily escaped their destruction. However, they stubbornly chose to remain and fight Israel instead.

The Judgment against Amalek
The book of 1 Samuel contains the account of God’s orders for Saul to destroy the people of Amalek. The Amalekites were descended from Amalek (whose name means ‘plunderer’), who was the son of Eliphaz and grandson of Esau. They were a wicked and warlike people, and were the first to oppose Israel after her liberation from Egypt (cf. Exodus 17:8). As descendents of Esau, they were likely aware of God’s promises to Jacob, but rather than honor God’s choice of Israel, they instead elected to be their enemy.

The Amalekites were particularly cowardly in their attacks on Israel and would deliberately murder the weak and elderly who sometimes lagged behind the core group of Israelites who were making their way to the land promised them by God (cf. Deut. 25:17-19). The book of Judges (6:3-5) records that they consistently allied themselves with other nations to commit genocide against Israel.

Amazingly, God chose not to destroy the Amalekites until some 400 years had elapsed from their first sinful acts against His people. Such an incredibly long period of time shows the patience of God and dispels any notion that God is quick tempered and rushes to judgment against those who are sinning before Him.

Scripture also contains God’s warnings to the Kenites, who were a people living among the Amalekites, to depart so they would not be caught up in the coming judgment (cf. 1 Sam. 15:6). Such a warning had to have also been heard by the Amalekites, and it is reasonable to assume they could have fled the land as well, but they chose not to.

Although God commanded Saul to completely destroy the Amalekites, he disobeyed and did not completely do as he was told (cf. 1 Sam. 15:9-26). Some were allowed to live, an outcome that ultimately resulted in another attempt of genocide upon Israel. The book of Esther records that a man named Haman – who was of Amalek descent – tried to have all the Jews killed in the land of Persia, but he was ultimately stopped by Queen Esther herself.

Samson and the Sons of Ashkelon
Bible naysayers decry Samson’s murder of 30 men of Ashkelon descent, which is recorded in Judges 14:19. However, they overlook a number of important things.

First, Ashkelon was a city of the Philistines, a people who persistently oppressed and brutalized Israel. The Philistines were notorious for their idol worship and worshiped the false gods Dagon, Ashtoreth (the spouse of the false god Baal), and Baalzebub. The rituals of Ashtoreth typically included temple prostitution.

The thirty ‘companions’ of Samson were of Ashkelon descent and clearly lived up to their reputation for violence and cruelty. When challenged by Samson’s riddle and bet, they threatened to murder his fiancée and destroy her father’s home by fire if she did not get Samson to reveal the riddle’s answer to them (which she did).

The acts that Samson carried out were simply an act of judgment by God upon the people of Ashkelon, and are part of a larger sweeping story of God using Samson (and others) as His weapons of justice against a blasphemous and evil people. The story of Samson ends with him killing thousands of Philistines by causing the building they were in to collapse. Samson was also killed in the act, although he himself was saved by God as evidenced by the fact that he is recorded in the ‘heroes of faith’ section in Hebrews 11 (cf. vs. 32).

A Discernable Pattern
From the above examples, we see a distinct pattern emerging from the judgments brought by God upon various peoples:

God declares an annihilation form of judgment to stamp out a cancer
The judgments are for public recognition of extreme sin
Judgment is preceded by warning and/or long periods of exposure to the truth and time to repent
Any and all ‘innocent’ adults are given a way of escape with their families; sometimes all given a way to avoid judgment via repentance or leaving a particular region. It should also be noted that expulsion from a land was the most common judgment, not extermination. This pattern goes all the way back to the ejection of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden (cf. Gen. 3:24)
Someone is almost always saved (redeemed) from the evil culture
The judgment of God falls
Far from being innocent, the objects of God’s judgments were involved in gross sin and committed acts of great barbarism, such as ritualistically burning their own children to death as offerings to their false gods. Amazingly, instead of immediately destroying the peoples involved in such things, the actual opposite is found: the Scripture conveys that God had incredible patience and waited until the full measure of their deeds were completed. For example, while speaking to Abraham about the future exodus of Israel from Egypt, God says the following about the Amorite people: "Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete” (Gen 15:15).

One has to ask if mankind today would be as long-suffering with such horrible acts? Were such acts as those chronicled in the Old Testament catapulted into the twenty-first century and globally broadcast via CNN, there would no doubt be a universal outcry with military action being prescribed if such actions were not immediately halted. Why then do God’s critics feel justified in labeling the Creator as morally unjust even when God waited, in some cases, for centuries to punish the peoples involved?

What About the Killing of Children?
Critics still point to the killing of children in a number of the accounts listed above (e.g. the Flood, Amalek, etc.) and protest that God was not justified in calling for the taking of their lives. To address this charge, a number of things should be understood.

First, the typical Israeli rules of engagement included a warning and declaration period of the coming, impeding war. Women, children, the elderly, and others who wished could easily flee far ahead of the fully announced military attack. Only those who (or whose parents) stubbornly remained would face war and its outcome.

Second, in the case of Amalek, it has already been shown that the entire culture had been corrupted by the sin of the adults. From the perspective of eternity, there was no hope for any child who was left behind. Scripture speaks to the fact that any child who dies before they know enough to be morally accountable before God are taken to be with Him (cf. 2 Sam. 12:23), so while some children may have been killed in war, they were ultimately saved by God from becoming what their parents were.

Last, socially and physically, the fate of children throughout history has always rested with their parents, whether they were in good hands (in the case of Noah) or bad (Amalek). The actions of the parents were the final determinant in the temporal/earthly well-being of the children.

Conclusion
After carefully examining the chief Old Testament examples that atheists use to label God as unjust, it has been demonstrated that their criticisms and characterizations are unfounded, and their understanding of the various situations flawed. Further, rather than living up to Dawkin’s caricature of being a vindictive, impatient, quick-tempered, and bloodthirsty deity, the image of God that instead emerges from the Old Testament after a thorough study has been made is just the opposite; God is portrayed as forgiving, patient, and slow to bring forth judgment. However, He is also revealed to be a holy, just, and righteous God who will bring justice about in His time. In short, the God of the Old Testament matches the God of the New Testament to a tee.

While some may argue that correcting the skeptic’s faulty view of God is not that important, quite the opposite is true. An accurate understanding of the nature and characteristics of God is paramount; a fact captured well by A.W. Tozer who writes: “What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us. The history of mankind will probably show that no people has ever risen above its religion, and man’s spiritual history will positively demonstrate that no religion has ever been greater than its idea of God.”4

It is true that the Bible contains graphic stories of sin, evil, and death. But it also includes the overarching grand story of love, redemption, and grace. It showcases a God who asks us to not criticize Him about His acts of justice, but instead One who kindly encourages us to come alongside Him and grieve over a world that has misused the gift of freedom given it to do wrong instead of right. When that happens, and God acts in His righteousness, the world discovers that consequences exist for evil behavior, which is something the prophet Isaiah speaks to: “At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; for when the earth experiences Your judgments the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness” (Isaiah 26:9).

So is the God of the Old Testament a merciless monster? After a thorough review of the facts, the evidence overwhelmingly demands an answer of ‘no.'






http://carm.org/god-of-old-testament-a-monster

This is true. People claim to "love" Jesus and I know they have never met the man. They love the idea of perfection and they love the promise of eternal life.

If Jesus is God or represents God and God is Love then what people love is LOVE.

Its very simple.