i have no issue with anyone believing in what every they want that is the beuty of free will that God has given to us.

but with that said there is still ultimatly a one true truth out there of which there are standards. you and i may disagree with whom and by what means and thats cool but no matter what 2+2=4.


and as far as the hate spewed all i see in none believers spewing the hate we are just answering the question you have asked, i have no ill feeling towards you at all and i wish you well in your quest on your path. i ultimatly will answer to God for my actions and so i had to try and answer your question. that is all

Nevermind, I don't know how to explain it to you in your terms.

np. thanks for the post feeel free to ask more!

I'm sure I'm guilty of a thoughtcrime or two (especially from the Christian perspective), but unlike Winston Smith in 1984, I've yet to agree that 2+2=5 to save myself. I strive always to treat people like I'd like to be treated. I believe as long as no one is harmed, one's private life is one's own business, so if some nosy moralizing ultra-religious person demands that I tell them something personal, I feel it's well within my right as a humanist to tell them "Ask me no secrets and I'll tell you no lies. Besides, it's NONE of your business."

I would have spoken out against the Spanish Inquisition, just as I think our pious-acting government is wrong for torturing prisoners.

I think there is a HUGE difference between murder and white lies, though. And I think that when Christianity treats both the same, IT creates a grave injustice to human beings by making them cannon fodder for the wars for validation of dogma.

In short, I don't think my humble rags prevent me from pointing out that the Emperor hath no clothes.


-Kerry O.

Well - I'm not assuming that you are refering to me as that "nosy moralizing, etc, etc" - because I'm not demanding you provide anythnig personal for me. It was as a reference point to the matter of "Justice" that you brought up in the post that started all this. Without involving a presumption of the existance of the emporer, the real issue at hand is the justice in forgiving Dahmer for the autrociteis of his actions - as opposed to - say Jean Valdeen. If not for the inequality of the actions - what is the measuring stick by which to judge redemption. Be it Christian, Pantheist, New Age, Reincarnation....

Naturally - being Agnostic - the question is moot, but I have more respect for your ability to respond with logic, rather than from a presumption of faith - of any dogma, not just christian. I'm more interested in your perception of the flaws that christianity presents on this matter of Justice. And if there seems a more viable approach to a "measuring stick" for retribution. Of course - I also see where it would not be worth your time of even considering the question.

I just popped in and read this post, I have not been following the conversation. I just want to ask this one question....

...."non believers" in what?

What are the "non believers" not believing?

JB

I am agnostic and have a real problem with the sceanario in the original post it seems awfully unfair the way we are supposedly judged and forgiven.

I didn't read all 16 pages of this conversation but I was wondering if any of you had head of "The Gospel of Inclusion"?

I don't think its quantity or the quality as stated. To me biblically it is a comparative and i think that is being over looked. I'm an x christian but have a good grasp on the book so to say. what is happening i believe is the coparison is being made leaving gods nature and attributes out. if we compare ourselves to one another then their for sure is lots of room for those comparisons, but if we compare ourselves to a perfect being that is without sin such as the biblical god claims, the the comparison falls short. If sin is falling short of perfection, then anything we do that is "less" than perfection, is in this beings eyes a - sin. sin meaning less than perfection, less than hitting the very dead center of the bullseye when shooting.
if that's understood, then it puts a different spin on those who think that little lies or actions are not bad as compared to murder. because we look at these with our own understanding an faulty comparitive, but if god truly cannot be connected in the least way with sin, [less than anything as perfect as himself,] then he cannot look at it our way, only from his point of view.

if we take a different perspective we could say that you or I are perfect but we cannot abide peanuts. big little or any type of peanut's, we cannot be connected to them in anyway, they to us are an abomination, no matter how much everyone else may love them or accept them or say to us they are not bad - will change or stand about them we have an incredible intolreance to them and even the sight of them makes us ill. we must stay disconnected from them at all cost - now i know it's not exactly the same but i'm trying to get across how gods nature is towards being connected with sin.{imperfectness}.

so what the book god/jesus is saying is you need some kind of way out of this dellema - jesus is supposedly perfect and died for peoples sins - therefore if you accept him your sins will be covered with his perfection and god will only see you as perfect because when he sees you he sees christ instead - that is what is meant by being in christ as part of HIS body you no longer are you but part of him and that's what god sees. so any sins you have[imperfections] are covered by his sacrifice and acceptance of his atonement, so if you sin afterwaords, and the accuser comes before god and says look at what so and so did, god looks and sees christ and turns back and says case dismissed.

now do i care whether you believe this or not - nope but it how it is seen by orthodox christians.

Why do you think it is unfair to be judged and forgiven? Would you rather be judged and NOT forgiven?

Would you rather not be judged at all?

If so, then why are so many people concerned by horrible criminals being judged and forgiven and then going to heaven?

Why do people judge criminals, child molester, murderers, rapists etc. and express concern that they might get into heaven if they repent?

If you go to heaven and bump into a mass murderer like Hitler will you judge him and wonder how he got into heaven when your little cousin who died of cancer didn't? (If the Christian religion is true.. which I don't think it is..)

Who should judge who? Should we not just judge ourselves? Who knows better what we have done than we do? Or will we judge ourselves too harshly or not harshly enough?

JB

thatb you either accept jess as your lord and savior or you will not be with him in the next life. there is a great misunderstanding of heaven - heaven is to be where christ reigns- and that is to be on earth not up in the sky some where. and we wont have any memory of this life nor know people we know now. If there are dahmers and hitlers there we would not recognize them anyway so why the big deal of who is there it wont matter to anyone personally? hmmm?

New to the threads are you?

Feel free to participate. All are welcome. If you need any help with the COMMON venacular, just go ahead and ask.

I will have to warn you though - that there is a certian group of individuals who feel the need to draw EVERY topic into an attack on Christianity, try not to get caught up in it. And enjoy your time here.

lj

That is a good point. I have never felt more confident in my "non-beliefs" than when I began visiting and participating in the religion forums.

Well so NOW your personal view (I don't believe for one minute any of this is based on actual unadulterated research on your part) is that she wont go to heaven but she will simply linger in between in some respect.Basically you are only saying that now as an attempt to appease the argument that has been generated on this thread and the outpouring of anger against the idea that the murderer of the Muslim girl will be able to spend his eternity alongside god in heaven if he only chooses to "find jesus" while in prison. That leaves his victim, the Muslim woman, according to you lingering in between heaven and hell for all eternity unless she chooses to accept Jesus as her savior. Thats a load of crap and we are back to square one. What if you will now linger in nothingness for all eternity because you have chosen to play ball with Jesus and not become Muslim? The point is, you cant disregard one belief in an invisible man over a belief in another invisible man.

The same would apply to the rest of your "answer" except now its simply crumbling and falling apart. You are darn right the scripture is not based in any fact. It is a work written by men and has been utilized over the centuries to control people. You are clearly an example of this in my opinion. At least you admit it now. Its also been been reproduced several times The authorized King James Version is an English translation of the Christian Bible begun in 1604 and first published in 1611 by the Church of England.

No one has been Blasphemous in this scenario. The Muslim girl had been a practicing Muslim for her entire life up until the point of her murder. She was never blasphemous of anyone. You seem to be assuming she is blasphemous in some respect simply because she never chose to accept Jesus as her personal savior. If she were to do that, then she would be turning her back on her own faith. Maybe she felt there was no reason to do that. There is a distinct difference between being disrespectful of a premise and simply having your own which you choose to adhere to.

I gave you the definition of purgatory because you asked. I was kind of surprised honestly that you required that seeing as you have done such an "extended exegesis" of all of these concepts.Shouldn't you be more familiar with some of these terms as it relates to biblical reference? Cro-Mag was one thing as I know you are not strong in that area of science but "purgatory"? I have ALWAYS been straight forward with you eljay and will continue to be. Besides, purgatory would be just as likely to exist as your concept of hell.

i think mankind will always judge itself less harsh than it could or should - human nature to make excuses for our own actions. We love ourselves therefore we find reasons to forgive our own actions but become visibly upset when we see others doing the same things because we know they are wrong. thus- judgementalness abounds.

as to bumping into people in heaven like hitler or dahmer - again - there wont be any memory of these people once we die - if every demonic human in the world ended up in heaven[which according to god wont be the case] we would recognize none. orthodox view is that we will have a new body/mind/spirit that will have no past memories for us to be judgemental in anyway, lest it would not be the heaven described by god of eternal peace and harmony. None of the present garbage we now carry around in this flesh will be present to do so in the next life.

LOL... WOW! You should read what you just wrote. God is mean in His punishments? How about YOU? LOL

Now admit...that punishment is meant for good.

Maybe there needs to be better definitions of judgement correction & punishment...yu think?

I never said it was mean, you implied that it was. I want her to know exactly where I stand on the rules, and the rules are for her developement.

Lily I understood your comment to mean that you would discipline your daughter immediately following her poor behavior or bad judgment in order that she should learn that actions have direct consequences. This to me sounds like highly appropriate parenting.

ROMEO:

I dream'd a dream to-night.

MERCUTIO:

And so did I.

ROMEO:

Well, what was yours?

MERCUTIO:

That dreamers often lie.