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Community > Posts By > Thomas3474
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Topic:
Theatre
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hey all... anyone here interested in theatre and plays... wud b great to hear views from those interested abt plays ranging from Shakespeare to Sartre.. Yes I have seen probably over a 100 shows.I prefer musicals compared to drama.Some of my favorites are... The Crucible Little shop of horrors Annie get your gun Antigone Most Andrew lloyd webber shows Fiddler on the roof Chicago Guys and dolls Once upon a mattress Jesus Christ superstar Noises off Death of a salesman Tosca |
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Question was: If the old covenant was fulfilled by Jesus coming then what was the purpose of his sacrifice?
The Reply was: The purpose of his sacrifice? It was so that you could be forgiven of your sins. And is the reason we no longer have to sacrifice something to be forgiven, we need to accept Jesus' sacrifice as our own, for Jesus was the ULTIMATE sacrifice.
So without the sacrifice there would have been NO NEW Covenant. If that’s what you’re saying then the Old Covenant was still in place including the prophecy’s of Jesus birth, death & resurrection – So the New Covenant could not have made to replace the Old Covenant UNLESS the old was fulfilled AFTER Jesus death. Does that sound correct to you? Not exactly. The sacrifice was only a part of the new covenant. The only main thing to the sacrifice itself was that we now don't have to sacrifice animals and such for forgiveness of our sins, for the blood of Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. Again, the biggest difference between the old and new covenant is when we will be judged. The old covenant allowed judgement to be done on earth by our peers. The new covenant has the word himself judging us, Jesus. In the times the old covenant held power the word had not been made into flesh yet, thus our peers had to carry out the judgement. And again now since the word has become flesh, Jesus. We are still judged by the word, but now the word can carry out the judgement itself. If you believe that ANY PART of the Old Covenant was spared from being done away with, then you MUST know and understand the Old Covenant. So I ask you – Where in the Old Testament are the 10 commandments and the rest of the law ever considered anything other than a WHOLE LAW? When Moses was given THE LAW by God – what did you think that law consisted of?
Both those questions are very important because what you believe and what you preach to others is conflicted and inconsistent. If Jesus is your model then see the model for what it was and understand that model from the perspective of the Old Testament – after all he spent a lot of years shining light on the OLD law so that others could recognize the difference between the Old and the New covenant. Regarding Judgment: The new covenant has the word himself judging us, Jesus.
I think you are incorrect – below is my reasoning. John 8:15 (King James Version)
15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. Luke 12:14 (King James Version) 14And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you? John 12:47 (King James Version) 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 8:50 (King James Version) 50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. In fact Jesus was the MODEL man, he did not judge, that was not his mission, his mission was to be a model of NON-judgment for everyone. There is not a WORD in the flesh – it is in spirit only that the WORD exists. Jesus was not the WORD, Jesus was flesh, like every other man. The only main thing to the sacrifice itself was that we now don't have to sacrifice animals and such for forgiveness of our sins, for the blood of Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.
You think that the only benefit you get from Jesus physical suffering was to be dismissed from sacrificing animals? If that’s the case then I think Jesus must have been a greater savior to animals than to man. Jesus did judge and the entire bible encourages judging to avoid hanging out with the wrong people.What Jesus was speaking about is the hypocrites.There is probably several hundred websites devoted to this subject and anyone who understands the bible knows that judging people to avoid them is not wrong. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/october1/29.70.html In three words, blunt and absolute, Jesus commanded us, "Do not judge" (Matt. 7:1). But did he really mean that we should never judge others? He goes on to suggest that it's not the act of judging but the attitude with which we do it that God is most concerned about—"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged" (7:2). There are other Scriptures that either cloud or shed light on the issue. Paul told the Christians in Rome not to judge one another (Rom. 14:13) but taught the Corinthians that they were to judge sinful believers and leave people outside the church to God (1 Cor. 5:12-13). James said he who judges his brother speaks against the law (4:11) but also implied that our judgments of others must be done with mercy (2:12-13). http://catholicexchange.com/2007/11/14/80923/ In Luke 12:56-58, Jesus told the crowd, "You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time? Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison" (NAB). In John 7:24, Jesus said, "Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly" (NAB.) That same chapter goes on to record how some religious leaders (Pharisees) debated among themselves about how they were to deal with Jesus until Nicodemus, a member of their group, pointedly asked, "Does our law condemn a person before it first hears him and finds out what he is doing?" (John 7:51, NAB). The following chapter, John 8, begins with religious leaders (Pharisees, again) bringing an adulterous women to be stoned, then ends with the group trying to stone Jesus! In between those episodes, Jesus told them, "You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he (God the Father) who sent me" (John 8:15-16). Regarding religious people who kept trying to trip him up, Jesus said in verse 26, "I have much to say about you and much to judge…." In John 12:46-50, Jesus told the crowd, "I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me" (NAB). Romans 2:1-3 offers a strong word of caution for those who judge others without inspecting themselves first: "Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things. We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?" (NAB). Again, reflecting Jesus' teachings, James 4:11-12 says, "Do not speak evil of one another, brothers. Whoever speaks evil of a brother or judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law. If you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save or to destroy. Who then are you to judge your neighbor?" (NAB). http://preacherstudy.com/premium/som-24.html 1. Examine Yourself Before Judging Others. 2. Be Sure of the Facts in Judging Others. 3. Show Mercy in Judging Others. 4. Deal As Privately As Possible, as Long as Possible when You Judge Another. 5. Watch Out for Hypocrisy when You Judge. 6. Don’t Rush to Judgment. |
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Here, it seems clear, that God does not intend for ANYONE to teach others about Him by teaching LAWs in the old way of the old covenant, they did no good ELSE why would they need to be ‘fulfilled’ and replaced with the new covenant (the new law) to be inside of every man, written in his heart?
How else could God forgive iniquity & forget sinful behavior unless the New Covenant could be found INSIDE (with) every man??? Cowboy continues a reply to the end quote (above) of a previous post The laws of the old covenant and the laws of the new covenanet are pretty much the same. The only real big difference between the two is when we will be judged. We've always been judged by the word, old and new testament. Just in the new testament is when the word was made flesh and dwelt with us, eg., Jesus. So now the word can carry out the punishment of disobediance on it's own and doesn't need us to do it like it was in the old testament. Here's some of the 10 commandments in the new testament, I can find all if needed.
In Matthew 22, Christ summarized the first four commandments, saying, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment” (vs. 37-38). Centuries later, Christ said that anyone who wants to enter eternal life must keep these same commandments: “You shall do no murder [Sixth Commandment], You shall not commit adultery [Seventh Commandment], You shall not steal [Eighth Commandment], You shall not bear false witness [Ninth Commandment], Honor your father and your mother [Fifth Commandment]” (Matt. 19:18-19). Christ summarized these as “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” the second greatest commandment (Matt. 22:39). You are assuming that the birth of Jesus fulfilled all of the Old covenant, but that is not the case. In fact the Old Covenant could not be fulfilled and the New covenant replacing it until Jesus had been sacrificed and risen. This means that Jesus was born a Jew beholding to ALL the Law of the Old covenant, and he taught ALL the Law of the Old covenant, for it remained in tact until fulfillment of that law was complete. Therefore, what you claim to be a part of the New covenant is only the old one being taught and adhered to. It was necessary for Jesus to adhere to the OLD LAW in order to be a model of behavior for the New covenant that was to be written in the heart of man and not in a book. It was necessary that people understood WHAT the old law was, what it meant, and WHY IT was insufficient for salvation. Without that understanding the greatness of his sacrifice could not be recognized for what it was meant to accomplish. Where in the bible is the New covenant revealed and to whom – do you know? The New covenant is revealed to everyone who reads about the death of Jesus and believes his is the son of God and accepts him as their Saviour.Because with out the belief in Jesus you are either a Jew still practicing the Old covenant,or a non believer who is not forgiven of his or her sins and who is not know by God. Many people ask "God had his temple in Jerusalem but where is Jesus's temple"?The answer is Jesus's temple is in his believers.We are his temple. The New covenant is a gift from God to make our lives easier,with more freedom,and to fulfill Old testament prophecy.God wanted to put a end to death by sin which he was never happy about.He didn't want death by law.He wanted repentance and forgiveness. You should also remember that despite the punishment for death for many of those Old testament laws Jews frequently broke them and did not suffer any punishment simply because many of the high priests who could give you the death sentence did not live in those towns or have a church there.You could also repentant of your sins to God and the people and promise to redeem yourself which has always been Gods preferred way.This would almost always spare your life from any death sentence regardless of what you were accused of. |
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no proof that any god has commanded anything, or rather, i have no belief that any man`s writings have been told to him by any god Yes! Even the bible says that things which are made from man are corrupt..so how can I trust a book written by several men whom I know nothing about? I'd rather not. You could say it is all about faith..but tell me, is it more faithful to follow this man made book? Or to see the truth (nature) that surrounds you and find your own love for God? What book holds more truth.A book written by someone who said this is true because I wrote it and said so.Or several people writing a book about this person who said it was true because they saw it?It would be like going to court and saying I am not guilty because I say so.You have witness who saw and heard these things and that makes it more factual then someone just saying it's true because I say it is. If God wrote the bible and just gave it to man people would say anyone could have written it and claimed God gave it to them.But the fact you have all these people who wrote the bible at different times in history living in different places in the world who all seem to say the same story is not only incredible it's almost a miracle.It only gives the bible much more credibility since the bible wasn't written in one room with all the disciples present immediately after Jesus's death. |
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Cowboy wrote: LoL. What do you think your conscience is? Your conscience is God speaking to you. EVERYTHING I said works together, no contradictions.
No, you misunderstood me. Your conscience, that guilty feeling you have while doing something you aren't to do is God speaking to you. I said BOTH are equally important. Cause if you had just that guilty feeling you wouldn't know what you're feeling guilty for and or that you were even feeling that it was wrong. That is where the bible comes in, the bible tells us straight up what is right and what is wrong, and why we feel guilty for doing certain things. Previously you said [Our obedience is to the law, therefore he listened to his conscience to obey the law. When you realized you had misread you corrected your statement to include: This was NOT the works of the father, for God states plainly that homosexuality is sinful and we are not to do as such, so no he was not OBVIOUSLY doing the work of God.
The man had not originally sinned according to the law you speak of, and was conflicted by what others told him the bible meant, he had prayed about the issue. In other words, as a believer and as sinless as anyone else, the spirit inside called him to pursue the path he took. You say it could not have been God because God can only enforce the law as it is written in the Bible. That means that God cannot work through a non-believer or anyone who does not obey the letter of the law in the bible. For if a person sins, his works - no matter how beneficial to others those works may be - are not of God and cannot be good. It sounds like God is trapped in a box called the bible! Do you REALLY believe that God is restricted as to how or to whom he can instruct or influence? Do you REALLY believe that God cannot do good works through a sinner, or a non-believer regardless of their adherence to the letter of the law? I am going to comment on several of your previous post and give you some answers here. In the Old Testament times God used to speak to people on what seemed like a daily basis.When I say God is speaking to them I am saying people actually heard God talking to them just like he was standing in front of them.God talked to Moses frequently especially when it came time for Moses to free the Jews from Egypt.There is many more times and many more people that God spoke to.In Judges in speaks of the victory of 300 Jews against 135,000 Midianites in a battle.God warning one family to flee Sodom and Gomorrah before it's destruction and many more. I do not believe God spoke to people anymore after the death of Jesus with the exception of the Angels telling Mary that Jesus was not there at the tomb.God would not interfere with anyones life anymore regarding any issues good or bad. Not much was written in the first 30 years of Jesus but we do know he observed and practiced Jewish laws set forth by God.He dressed as a Jew,observed the Sabbath,did not eat unclean animals,and frequently read the Torah in the synagogues.In Luke 4:16 it speaks of how Jesus read aloud the scroll of Isaiah in a synagogue.He then spoke to the masses about what those bible verses meant. In the last 3 years of Jesus all he did was travel from place to place talking to them about what the bible meant and what is expected to of them from God and performing miracles.He had a huge following.So many people followed him his disciples said they couldn't even count that high.Jesus often had to leave in the middle of the night so he didn't have these huge masses of people following him. You keep mentioning is it wrong for a unbeliever to be doing Gods word or a evil person doing Gods word.I don't know of any unbelievers or evil people out there preaching Gods word or doing Gods work.I really don't see how they would tell people they have to believe in Jesus when they don't believe themselves.It would seem very strange to hear a evil person or unbeliever doing that kind of work.If they were doing it they might as well believe it so they were saved. You mention the idea of is it wrong for a homosexual to be doing the works of God and is this person good or bad for doing so?I think it's a dangerous game of cat and mouse and nearly always you are going to be exposed for what you really are.Many people including many famous pastors have had their lives destroyed because they were such hypocrites doing the very things they spoke of not doing.The bible says your sins will always find you out. Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. Jesus had it exactly right when he said "Pray for you enemies".It is much better for a evil and wicked person to be a born again Christian and give testimony to people because it holds so much more substance than a Christian who was just born into a Christian family.The key to Christianity is not wishing all your enemies drop dead.The key is for them to convert,have a change of heart,and have them on your side.What a powerful and great ally it would be if people like the prime minister of China became a reborn Christian.Or many of those famous movie stars and musicians. It's the same with the homosexuals out there.Christian churches want the homosexuals to come there to repent,change their lifestyle,and be born again.A church has a lot of firepower when you have ex homosexuals,ex Atheist,ex Muslims,ex drunks and murders,and all the others all saying that Jesus is the reason they had a change of heart.No other religion comes close to having the diverse followers as Christianity has as it will take anyone. For your final question...Do I believe that Jesus can do works through non believers?The answer in no I don't.God gave everyone free will to live their life anyway they want to.That includes God not making them do anything for any reason.God can't take a non believer and do works because... 1.)He doesn't know them. 2.)It would be taking away their free will which God has promised. Can a non believer seek the bible and Jesus and do great things?Of course.Believe it or not there is thousands of people who go to church ever Sunday and have for 20 years and still have not accepted Jesus.They actually follow the bible and do what the bible says but for some reason will not accept Jesus. This topic reminds of a friend I used to have who was not a Atheist but acted just like a Christian.After many years and many talks about Christianity I said "Your living a life better than most Christians out there.Your life will be the same in nearly all aspects except you will be promised heaven and eternal life".She thought that was a very good logic and decided being a Christian would only improve her life which it did. But the most important thing to remember is that if you do not accept Jesus it won't matter what you did in this life for God or Jesus.You will still go to Hell and you will still burn.It don't matter if you saved the entire nation of China.Your name is not written in the book of life and you did not accept the most important and crucial thing God asks of you. |
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a man can't find his car keys he ask the lord"oh lord please help me find my keys so i won't be late for work" he decides to check his pants he had on the night before and finds them,he says "thank you jesus"...wow what a miracle a family is in a hospital cause their dad is eatin up with cancer he's is in constant pain,the family prays together "oh lord please heal our dad from cancer we love him and want him to recover soon" 2 days later he dies.....wow what a miracle? Did God or Jesus say anywhere while you live on this planet you will have no worries,no diseases,no problems,and live a healthy care free life?Far from it.The bible says that life is not easy and is full of all sorts of problems including death,illness,and poverty. Even Jesus's own apostle had anything but care free lives.Most of them died horrible deaths or were locked in prison for years. as Paul the apostle says.... 2 Corinthians 11:25/26 Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned.Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea;on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren; One of the things that makes Christianity the great religion that is it today is all the millions of stories of faith people have given in hard times.As a Christian I know every good thing comes from God and ever bad thing(such as cancer)comes from Satan.So if you are going to stomp and curse someone for tornadoes and cancer I would be cursing Satan. God does heal and God does perform miracles every day.There is millions of testimonies of people being healed from deafness to caner.Here are just a few examples. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRNULaTF0I4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlxxTfG6cUs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJfKaGTtvmg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_mBaCqRc94&feature=related |
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Thomas, you edited out two passages from your posts here after I quoted them. I dont know what you claim I edited. This I quoted from one of your posts, directly, with cut-and-paste: "So there is really no reason to bring this Jesus person into the picture" You said this in one of your posts, and now it can be found in none of your posts. Deny you edited it out, and I will never talk to you again. I was saying that as a point of view from the Jewish people of that time and this is true to this day.Jewish people do not believe in Jesus Christ despite the Old testament prophecy. But the point is that if you were a Jew that rejected Jesus you certainly wouldn't start a new religion telling other Jews to worship him.You would prevent that from ever starting. That which you just spake of is not the issue. The issue is that I quoted you and you simply deleted he words of your own from your post which I later quoted, and you did this deletion after I posted the quote. This is what I find unacceptable. You can have your opinion, your faith, your whatever, but in a discussion you can't delete your own words much later after you have said it first. I still have no idea what you are talking about. |
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Thomas, you edited out two passages from your posts here after I quoted them. I dont know what you claim I edited. This I quoted from one of your posts, directly, with cut-and-paste: "So there is really no reason to bring this Jesus person into the picture" You said this in one of your posts, and now it can be found in none of your posts. Deny you edited it out, and I will never talk to you again. I was saying that as a point of view from the Jewish people of that time and this is true to this day.Jewish people do not believe in Jesus Christ despite the Old testament prophecy. But the point is that if you were a Jew that rejected Jesus you certainly wouldn't start a new religion telling other Jews to worship him.You would prevent that from ever starting. |
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You forget God works through people. That may be why I have such a drive to come in here and defend our father...
There it is again, the intervening God. God works through poeple - but which people? Some may think that Gods' work comes through people who tell others what is necessary to please God and find salvation? And which set of ideas pertaining to those objectives would any other believer or a non-believer have to embrace? Of course if God works through 'people' than God works through all people. So how can you know that God is not working through Abra? How can you know that God is not working through Richard Dawkins, or even Hitler? Could it possibly be that God does not work through people so much as God intends his message to be ONLY for each individual? If the message you receive is contrary to that of another Christian individual does that make one you wrong? And how can anyone know if thier message is right or wrong for anyone, including self? Is it not possible for an individual to read the Bible and develop a stronger faith in God without coming to the same moral conclusions that another might accept as fundamental for belief and salvation? Could it be that the biblical message pertaining to judging others, is a warning implying that comparing individual beliefs can lead to MIS-judging the beliefs and behaviors of others based on a message that was meant for the individual alone? After all, if God works through people and people have no idea what God's intensions are, then wouldn't it be wrong to try to change what a person believes since that belief is guided by the will of God? There it is again, the intervening God. God works through poeple - but which people? Some may think that Gods' work comes through people who tell others what is necessary to please God and find salvation? And which set of ideas pertaining to those objectives would any other believer or a non-believer have to embrace? No, nothing with intervening. Intervening would be God literally taking over someone's body and forcing them to do something or not do something. Yes God helps us through our lives, you can call that intervening if you wish. But God in no way do my first example, he doesn't take anyone's free will away, he doesn't "force" anyone to do anything. We ALWAYS have a choice. And with your comment on doing God's will. If you have on your heart to do something in particular, if it coincides with what is said in the bible then you can trust it is from our father. If it doesn't agree with his teachings and or laws then you can guarantee it is Satan tempting you to do something you ought not do. And what of my other questions? You say ...if it coincides with what is said int he bible...
Either you are guided by the holy spirit or you are guided by the letter of the law - which is it? If an individual feels the holy spirit is guiding him to act in a particualar way, what need does that individual have of the bible? Is not the holy spirit God, and does not God work through all people and might God want an individual to take some action without consulting the bible - which that individual might interpret incorrectly, and decide NOT to follow his own feeling that was guided through the spirit of God????? I don't understand your question. Example ======= Someone is giving you hell all the time. Always finding something to pick at you about. Eventually a lot of people would end kicking the crap out of the person. But you know that little feeling inside of you where you feel it's wrong, but you're doing it any ways, that would be your conscience. In this scenario your conscience would tell you to just go on if your conscience is with the lord. And this can be personally verified for the word of God tells you to turn the other cheek... eg., walk away. Since both work together, your conscience and the word, then you can guarantee that it is what God wanted and that it was God speaking to your conscience and not Satan tempting you to do some sinful action. A better example: An individual is torn because the people most important to that individual are committed Christians who believe that being gay is a choice that is influenced by the devil and the gay person is a deviant and sinful person who is condemed unless they change. But the individual has been unable to change and has spend years praying and doing good works and praying some more - and suddenly one day the person has a dream and that dream persists and in the dream the person is told he is a loved child of God and that the love given to him is love worthy of extending. The person pushes the dream away but it persists and then signs appear that make him realize it is the voice of God and he feels called to the ministry and to a 'life-partner' and together they build a new church in a run down community. The church not only meets spiritual needs but creates a number of outreach programs that help many in the community. In this case the person ignored the letter of the law becasue to accept it (by someone elses interpretation) would have prevented him from accomplishing his mission. So in this case, was the letter of the law more important or the guidance of the spirit from within? Yes very good example. And neither was more important. Our obedience is to the law, therefore he listened to his conscience to obey the law. Both equally important for if he wouldn't have listened to his conscience he would not have turned away from his sinful lifestyle, if it wasn't for the law he may not have known exactly what was wrong and or why he was feeling it was wrong in the first place. You missed the point (he took a "life-partner" in a homosexual relationship)he was obviously doing the work of God which he could not have done had he stayed under the oppression of those who thought he was deviant, sinful, and an abomination to God. Who in that case would have been the greater abomination - those who interpreted the bible and used that interpretation to oppress another or the homosexual who refused to accept that interpretation and chose instead to follow the spirit from within to end up joining with a same-sex partner and together serving the needs of a poor community? He's not doing the work of God.It's like a priest saying I can have a prostitute on the weekend because I saved 20 people in church last Sunday. When I lived in Seattle it was second in homosexuals only to San Francisco.75% of the people that lived there was Atheist.You had to be tough as nails to claim you were a Christian in that town.I watched churches 90 to 100 years old accept the homosexual movement in gay friendly parts of town.Pastors were giving sermons saying God loves everyone gay or not.Those churches which strived for nearly a 100 years were not only closed but demolished(a real rarity).Funny how those other churches just blocks away that did not accept homosexuality did just fine. I would say the person who did the greater abomination would be the one who knows what the bible says about homosexuality and not only ignores it but promotes and calls it good.Much like a tree that grown it starts with one person and branches off to the people who follow. Christians are not oppressing anyone.Nobody in this country has to deal with dealing with biblical judgment as a crime for anything.Homosexuals can be homosexuals in any town in America with out any worry at all about committing any crimes dealing with Christianity.Christians living in that town may not like but who cares?Nothing is forcing you to live there and nobody is going to be waiting inside your house with a bible and the police outside.What you do in your house is your own business and the Christians can't do a thing about it. If a homosexual wants to keep his homosexual life private and lead others to Christ than that is another story.For all those who follow this person he is just like any other Christian.He isn't promoting homosexuality or calling it good.It is just his sin to deal with much like the millions of Christians who go to church only to go out and get drunk and go whoring. Hopefully what they will realize what they are doing wrong and lead a better life as there will be a judgment day and prices to pay in this life and the next. |
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Thomas, you edited out two passages from your posts here after I quoted them. This is not nice. If you can't fight fair, then Jesus will crush you like a coooockroach. Even if you deceive and lie to prove his side. He can abide with this? Seriously. Don't talk big. Talk honest, and stand by what you say. If you can't stand by it, don't say it in the first place. I have no respect for you. Really. And you want to be taken seriously. Remember, you are arguing on the side of Jesus, you are arguing on trying to make it believable, honestly, and morally and ethically. Jesus taught you to be ethical? You are not responsible to me to be ethical. I don't know your name, your address, I can't sue you for being so under-handed anyway. But you can't hide from the wrath of God for lying to all these poeple, witnessed by all. Of course I can't prove it now that you took those out. How could I? but I have two or three witnesses who saw you do this, and one of them maybe willing to testify. Not in front of a court of law. But in front of the community. And there is another court where you have to account for lies, and which recognises witnesses, but has no use for them, for it already knows the truth. Why do you do things like this, man?? I dont know what you claim I edited.I only have one judge and jury and that is God himself.If you claim what I am saying in ungodly,unholy,and against Jesus Christ then it should be easy for you to put me in my place. I do things like this man because there is a lot of people who come here debating if they should become Christians and hear nothing but a bunch of garbage and lies from Atheist.I provide them with the truth not lies. |
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Topic:
This christmas!
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Christmas was placed on the Pagan holiday specifically to stomp it out and replace it which they accomplished.
Nobody know when Jesus was born.I really don't think it matters when we celebrate just as long as we celebrate it every year.I don't think it makes it any less that we celebrate it on December 25th. Pagans may have decorated trees first but that isn't what Christmas trees stand for today.Just like(insert group here)may have held music festivals first,danced first,and other things first.I put a Christmas tree in my living room and decorate it as a reflection as Jesus Christs birth.It has nothing to do with Pagans and nothing to do with their religion.Jesus Christ knows I am doing this in honor to him and there is nothing wrong with doing that.That is why every church at Christmas time has Christmas trees in the lobby. On the other hand if Christians were dressing up trees in the woods and dancing around them giving praise to the earth mother this would be wrong.This is what the bible spoke of.Worshiping false Gods. |
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SHOWING people that it is not the letter of the law that matters, but only belief in God as creator who expects people to be civil to each other and good caretakers of the environment on which they depend for life? REally - what if??? Well. This would mean that others would be allowed to make inferences, much like you, what the Bible is all about. If it is really up to grabs, what it means, anything goes. It may want to say that people not be civil to each other and take bad care of the planet. Since the text does not make sense, the only thing you can VALIDLY infer, is that the contents can't be taken as gospel. Beyond that everything else is inference. Sure, you can make that supposition, as long as you alloow others, on a purely inferential basis on the bible, to believe whatever they want to believe, including that god is spreading his teaching through people, through the literal understanding of the bible, or not, or that homosexuality is a sin, or that coveting your neighbours *** is a sin. In other words, if you seriously believe that anything tangible or sensible can be inferred from the bible, whether you name that thing that you think is the true inference or you don't name it, you allow that a completely incomprehensible text can tell you something, furthermore, that it can teach you moral lessons. This is what you allow, and you can't defend the lesson you learn from it with any more conviction, than another person whose inference involves burnign witches and eating baby's brains. Really. Let sleeping dogs lie, don't try to make sense of something senseless, and claim it can be done without doing damage. On the other hand - If people are going to believe that the bible has some value, wouldn't it be better if they believed the bible was only a collection of intermitant historical refernce and some bad and good morality stories about good citizenship? Wouldn't it be better to accept that faith and beliefs come from within for the benefit of the individual and not from a book to be dictated to all? Thats great until you die and go to Hell.The bible is all about the after life. I think all you have to do is look at countries where Christianity is banned to see what kind of life you speak of. |
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You forget God works through people. That may be why I have such a drive to come in here and defend our father...
There it is again, the intervening God. God works through poeple - but which people? Some may think that Gods' work comes through people who tell others what is necessary to please God and find salvation? And which set of ideas pertaining to those objectives would any other believer or a non-believer have to embrace? Of course if God works through 'people' than God works through all people. So how can you know that God is not working through Abra? How can you know that God is not working through Richard Dawkins, or even Hitler? Could it possibly be that God does not work through people so much as God intends his message to be ONLY for each individual? If the message you receive is contrary to that of another Christian individual does that make one you wrong? And how can anyone know if thier message is right or wrong for anyone, including self? Is it not possible for an individual to read the Bible and develop a stronger faith in God without coming to the same moral conclusions that another might accept as fundamental for belief and salvation? Could it be that the biblical message pertaining to judging others, is a warning implying that comparing individual beliefs can lead to MIS-judging the beliefs and behaviors of others based on a message that was meant for the individual alone? After all, if God works through people and people have no idea what God's intensions are, then wouldn't it be wrong to try to change what a person believes since that belief is guided by the will of God? There it is again, the intervening God. God works through poeple - but which people? Some may think that Gods' work comes through people who tell others what is necessary to please God and find salvation? And which set of ideas pertaining to those objectives would any other believer or a non-believer have to embrace? No, nothing with intervening. Intervening would be God literally taking over someone's body and forcing them to do something or not do something. Yes God helps us through our lives, you can call that intervening if you wish. But God in no way do my first example, he doesn't take anyone's free will away, he doesn't "force" anyone to do anything. We ALWAYS have a choice. And with your comment on doing God's will. If you have on your heart to do something in particular, if it coincides with what is said in the bible then you can trust it is from our father. If it doesn't agree with his teachings and or laws then you can guarantee it is Satan tempting you to do something you ought not do. And what of my other questions? You say ...if it coincides with what is said int he bible...
Either you are guided by the holy spirit or you are guided by the letter of the law - which is it? If an individual feels the holy spirit is guiding him to act in a particualar way, what need does that individual have of the bible? Is not the holy spirit God, and does not God work through all people and might God want an individual to take some action without consulting the bible - which that individual might interpret incorrectly, and decide NOT to follow his own feeling that was guided through the spirit of God????? I don't understand your question. Example ======= Someone is giving you hell all the time. Always finding something to pick at you about. Eventually a lot of people would end kicking the crap out of the person. But you know that little feeling inside of you where you feel it's wrong, but you're doing it any ways, that would be your conscience. In this scenario your conscience would tell you to just go on if your conscience is with the lord. And this can be personally verified for the word of God tells you to turn the other cheek... eg., walk away. Since both work together, your conscience and the word, then you can guarantee that it is what God wanted and that it was God speaking to your conscience and not Satan tempting you to do some sinful action. A better example: An individual is torn because the people most important to that individual are committed Christians who believe that being gay is a choice that is influenced by the devil and the gay person is a deviant and sinful person who is condemed unless they change. But the individual has been unable to change and has spend years praying and doing good works and praying some more - and suddenly one day the person has a dream and that dream persists and in the dream the person is told he is a loved child of God and that the love given to him is love worthy of extending. The person pushes the dream away but it persists and then signs appear that make him realize it is the voice of God and he feels called to the ministry and to a 'life-partner' and together they build a new church in a run down community. The church not only meets spiritual needs but creates a number of outreach programs that help many in the community. In this case the person ignored the letter of the law becasue to accept it (by someone elses interpretation) would have prevented him from accomplishing his mission. So in this case, was the letter of the law more important or the guidance of the spirit from within? You will not find a single verse anywhere in the bible where God or Jesus accepts sin.They reject it always. People can hear voices,dream,and have visions that God told them this and that but the fact is that the bible is Gods word and the bible is very clear what sin is and how we should live.If people do believe God is talking to him then they should reference the bible to see if what they heard is from God or is from Satan. Christian homosexuals can and do run churches and bring people to Christ.However people are not coming to homosexuals to learn about homosexuality they are coming to learn about Christ and the bible.If homosexuals claim what they are doing is not wrong they are liars despite who or what position the hold in the church.It is wrong for homosexuals and others who lie to new Christians about what is considered good and bad in the bible and they should not be setting a bad example by telling new Christians they can sin as much as they want and feel good about it. I don't know how many homosexuals have converted to Christianity over the years and lead a straight life and get married but it is no small number.There is many websites with thousands of ex gays giving testimony. Everything you do in your life is your choice.Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do anything.You can end or start anything anytime you want.The choice is yours. |
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4.See what laws were Jewish tradition and not from God. This is a bit of a sticky issue. According to an observant Jew, all laws in the old testament are from god. To you those that are not from god, got canned. But I contest your predetermination which were purely Jewish laws and which were god-given laws. All laws in the bible are in the Bible!!! The works don't specify, "this is the law, but it's not god-given, but we put it in the Talmud anyway, to confuse you." In fact, the only determinant you or anyone can use to separate laws in the old testament into strictly Jewish laws and into strictly God-given laws is the determination of Jesus. Before Jesus, nobody said of any law in the Talmud, "this is Jewish law, that is God-given law." I am just saying you are full of imagination. There existed no separate sets of Jewish and God-given laws. Jesus made them into that. The Jewish laws nearly always dealt with punishment for sin including death.In the Old testament times your average Jew probably had to live life like a nun in a convent to avoid breaking any laws.It was probably a very hard life to live back then. God does not like anyone dying for sin.Far from it.However there has to be some form of law and order to keep Jews from living like Atheist.If you read the bible you will find God did not make adam and even and give them the 10 commandments and all these laws.It happened much much later.All those laws and commandments were commanded by God because the entire world was doing nothing but killing,stealing,having sex,and other ungodly things. God is very patient and still people continued to sin,live ungodly lives,and disobey God.He grew tired of seeing people dying for their sins and decided to offer his son as a sacrifice so people would no longer die for sins.They could be forgiven and their life sparred no matter what the sin was. Jesus died for our sins.Someone saying the death of God's only son isn't good enough and this person should die anyways because of Old testament laws is so half assed backwards and wrong it hard to stomach it. |
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I am not against the tenets of the Christian faith. There are no tenets. The whole thing is an impossibility. It is constructed so that people ought not to believe it, cuz it's beyond unbeleivable. Yet people believe in it. It says more about people than about the bible, while the bible says a lot about the bible badly enough.
But wux,(in all seriousness) what if that IS the purpose of the bible? What if those who put the bible together WERE acting at the will of God - for the sole purpose of SHOWING people that it is not the letter of the law that matters, but only belief in God as creator who expects people to be civil to each other and good caretakers of the environment on which they depend for life? REally - what if??? You should also understand that laws and punishment were severe back in the Old testament times.Simple blasphemy could get you killed(as what Jesus was charged with).So there is really no reason to bring this Jesus person into the picture to make all the laws invalid.It would be understandable if it was some other religion that wanted to make up Jesus for the sake of all these laws becoming invalid but Jesus was prophecy in the Old testament and Jesus was a Jew so it is impossible to say that anyone but the Jews were responsible for the New testament. What reason would the Jews have to basically throw away their whole system of worship,laws,and traditions?There is nothing to gain and much to loose.If anything they would have rejected Jesus(which they did)and would have stopped the New testament from being written(which many did mainly through the murders of the disciples which is why the New testament had to be written some 30 years later) So with that understood you have to accept the fact that everything is true in the Old testament since clearly Jesus was written about,Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies,and people did not want the New testament written. No matter what way you slice it.You have people on all side either claiming these things to be true since people on all sides had a role in either preventing Christianity or spreading it.Either way they all come to the conclusion that Jesus was here and either rejected him or accepted him.There is no middle ground. |
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I love the christian religion. It is full of inconsistencies and self-contradictions. I am not talking about things even like the world is six thousand years old, plus or minus. I am talking about self-contradictions, which occurs that on a page in the bible the Lord says X is true and on the facing page He says X is not true. I am not against the tenets of the Christian faith. There are no tenets. The whole thing is an impossibility. It is constructed so that people ought not to believe it, cuz it's beyond unbeleivable. Yet people believe in it. It says more about people than about the bible, while the bible says a lot about the bible badly enough. And they fight! Christians defend their points! And they can't! Any five year old can see how irrevokably impossible it is to understand and accept the Bible as truth. I have known people who were beaten severely at ages eight to twelve, because they asked the wrong questions in bible classes. They were sent to bed with no dinner coz they aced or voiced their knowledge as was consistent with the bible. The kid was punished for taking those instructions which the bible gave, but adults did not want her to take seriously. Or take seriously, but not believe, and certainly not act on them, but if she said "I don't believe this, you're right, daddy," then she would have been again corporally punished, for she disbelieved the Holy Words. Kids are not as good at self-deception as adults. Yes, they also can believe that it's the trees that create the wind, and that santa claus and the easter bunny exist, and that there is a pot at the end of the rainbow. But they were punished, from their point of view completely incomprehensibly, if they said yes, I believe there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and they were punished if they said no, I don't believe there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Kids are pure, not stupid; they believe, but their logic can make very good inferences what follows from what logically. We laugh at kids, when they say something cutely funny, because we see the iron-hard logic that their young minds, not having exposed to other complexities, deduces from the workings of the world. Except with the Christian religion, there is no incorporating of more and more complexity into a child's reality, with the Christian dogma there is only confusion that ensues from more in-depth study. The authoritanian nature of Christian churches has its basis at people getting at each other's throats, potentially, whether to use or to spear the rod; and therefore they elected a leader that made decrees over paradoxial, meaningless credos in the faith. Authority is good, cause the Bible is chaotic in its system of logic. A five year old child can see it, but not a Christian, for a christian has been beaten into obedience. A child is pre-beatnik; a Christian is post-beatnik. I think if you ask any Christian no matter where you are anywhere in the world they will all tell you the exact same thing. God created everything Jesus died for our sins Follow the 10 commandments read the bible try to be a good Christian Maybe you should wait outside a church and take polls on what Christians believe and see how confused they are. Kids have no problem understanding the bible either.They can tell you who God is who Jesus is how he died and what he died for. Christianity has changed little if anything over the 2,000 years it has been in existence including those who believe in it.The beliefs have always been the same and will be until the end of time. Atheist and those who wish to change or destroy Christianity have had no effect regardless of what they say or do.You will never read any history of anyone who made a claim which caused Christianity to take a nose dive or to be changed in any way.Christianity is like a piece of hardened steel 30 miles thick and you have some atheist trying to drill a hole in it with a hand drill and dull drill bits. Rave and rant all you want.It has no effect on Christians,and no effect on changing the bible. |
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Of course Jesus' teachings weren't the same as the old testament laws. They are TWO different forms of laws and Jesus fulfilled what we now call the OLD testament. So no he wasn't agreeing that they were unwise, just they were fulfilled, completed, finished. Some simple questions. Were the 10 commandments part of the old covenant? Simple answer yes or no. Did the old covenant make distinctions between the ten commandments and the rest of the law as prescribed by God? If yes, please explain the distinction - or you can simply answer no? EXACTLY when were ALL the laws of the old covenant fulfilled (in your words - "completed, finished"? The 10 commandments are no different today then they were in the old testament.Nothing has changed in that regard except Jesus adding the commandment that you shall love your lord God with all your heart. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40). There was 621 Old testament laws.Some were from God and some were Jewish tradition.You could probably do the research your self to find out which laws were Gods laws and which ones were Jewish laws. Jesus fulled all the laws and either confirmed them or made them null and void.Many of the Old testament laws are still valid today as they were in the Old testament.Some of these laws include...the 10 commandments,morality and sexual issues,divorce,worship(including tithing),marriage issues,etc. All the laws that dealt with animals being unclean and what you can eat are null and void.Any laws that talk about punishment by death for sin are null and void.Any Jewish laws and traditions are null and void.Any laws that talk about dress codes and hair styles are null and void.There are many more. These laws and issues are often a complicated and even church leaders and followers many times don't understand what laws we should follow.If you really wanted to do the effort you would have to... 1.See which laws Jesus spoke of and set a example to follow. 2.See which laws(although no punishment will be given)are still offensive to God despite Jesus's death(such as homosexuality,adultery,lust,blashpemy,and other issues). 3.See what Old testament laws dealt with unclean issues such as animals and void them. 4.See what laws were Jewish tradition and not from God. 5.See what laws were from God and determine if Jesus's death warranted them being void. 6.To determine if following such Old testament laws should be followed anyways for the sake of Christianity(such as tithing in church,not working on the Sabbath,not eating shelfish,etc.) |
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Edited by
Thomas3474
on
Sat 11/20/10 11:08 PM
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Part of the reason this country is in ruins is because you constantly have thousands of people coming across the border who assume there will be a job for them.What do you do when you have millions of people looking for work,thousands coming across the border,and hundreds of thousands of jobs lost every month?You have employers firing everyone and re-hiring everyone for minimum wage like we are seeing now.They know if they have a job opening there will be a hundred people in line for that job and they can pay them minimum wage.They are turning America into a third world country because they will work for next to nothing and their petty wages hardly generate any tax revenue.It has been the illegals that have driven down wages,not paid state or federal taxes,and used every possible program to sit around and collect welfare.
We have to have a process to screen who is coming into this country.One of these days a illegal or a bunch of illegals are going to be carrying the black plague or some other disease from some third world country and wipe out half of America.Felons on the run,gang members,drug lords,and others are just another reason we need to know who is coming here. Mexico can keep their cheap labor.The billions we pay to illegals is far more expensive then any benefit they serve picking oranges or painting houses. |
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Topic:
Geraldo Rivera Discusses 911
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Kind of funny how they sifted through every inch of that soil and found the remains of all the victims yet didn't find a single piece of explosives.It would have taken well over a million pounds of explosives.Thousands of miles of wires.Thousands of people hanging and stringing wires all over the building for several months and probably years and yet not a single person working there saw any of this? Get a life.You need one. Complete Article http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM Abstract: We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples we have studied of the dust produced by the destruction of the World Trade Center. Examination of four of these samples, collected from separate sites, is reported in this paper. These red/gray chips show marked similarities in all four samples. One sample was collected by a Manhattan resident about ten minutes after the collapse of the second WTC Tower, two the next day, and a fourth about a week later. The properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across which are largely iron oxide, while aluminum is contained in tiny plate-like structures. Separation of components using methyl ethyl ketone demonstrated that elemental aluminum is present. The iron oxide and aluminum are intimately mixed in the red material. When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13049 Your uninformed comments amuse me. Wow you have a single paragraph from some unknown website with evidence collected by some no name person which hasn't even been verified by anyone else. 
I have some ocean front property in Kansas I would like to sell you.Yes the ocean does reach Kansas because I have a website that says so and so does one of my friends.So it has to be fact! |
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