LOL

*I* have been told by a guy *on the same dating site *I* was on* that the only people ON dating sites are losers, and who'd want to date a loser...good luck meeting someone you fat ugly bi**h..

Totally forgetting that HE is also on there...

That is funny !

Thanks Eirik for commenting. I wasn't really referring to "come on's" or one nighters. Women generally let the man know they are interested and then the man does the initial pursuing, or asks her out for the first date. I wanted to know how men felt if it were the women who asked first?

Some men are okay with it and others aren't.. either because of how they grew up or their egos... but mostly because innately, men are the hunters and women are the nurturers.

Basically all the things you do to get a women's attention and to woo her until she finally says okay I'll go on a date with you.

How would you feel if the roles were reversed and it was the women who wooed you until you finally said yes?

For y'all's consideration:

In the natural world females present themselves to the males that appear to have the qualities they want in a mate.


I think its much more than that.

Females are the ones calling the shots for passing desired qualities to their offspring. There are exceptions in nature (bird as an example).

The males parade around sporting the high quality features the female desire in a mate.
Big antlers, nest building, colorful plume, ability to dance a certain way, a big bank account, physical features that show health, etc...

The females present themselves for mating to the males that are the strongest, healthiest, most colorful or most successful.

In the human species, it happens much the same way but for different reasons. In these few instances, the goal is to present yourself to the males that offer the best qualities to raising a healthy family.

So, even tho the female human makes the first 'move' it is not really the 'first' move. The male has some quality that the female desires.
Otherwise, the female would not present themselves to that male.
The first move is to cause the desire of the female in the first place.
If the female isn't interested, she will not present.

One of the things that confuses the pattern in humans is that there are added considerations based on the fact that a civilized human ignores their animalistic instincts trying to be civilized. Most people reel at the thought that they are animals. No matter how hard you try to deny it, ultimately we are all animals and regulated by animalistic urges and needs.

So, when the woman initiates a relationship, she is doing so as a response to the men's presentation. Otherwise she wouldn't be trying at all.
In current societies, the man initiates. Its an exaggeration of the behavior that comes naturally. The presentation is governed by their need to present their qualities to the gene pool.
When a woman initiates, she is trying to add the qualities she feels are best for perpetuating her genetic line.
After menopause, it becomes a whole different scenario.
In the past, once a woman hits menopause or is no longer able to reproduce, she raised her family and died. There was very little recreational sex after she can no longer pass on the genetic code.

In the present, the woman can enjoy post-menopausal sex so she has to take action towards the males that might offer her something she wants.
Failure to take action (initiate a connection) makes that woman invisible to the man because the man is programmed by nature to want to reproduce with the best mate to continue their genetic code.
So, men are harder to catch for a woman post-menopause.
This is why women initiate.
To make the male 'look' at them as a mate.

When asking why or how a woman should initiate they must understand that our animal instincts are still there.
When they find a male with qualities they desire, they need to make that male notice them.
If they can't catch the male's attention, they will fail.

So basically, if yer looking for ways to initiate a relationship its all in the presentation. If you study the target, you can adjust your presentation for optimal recognition.
For some men, all you need to do is walk in front of them and give a subtle hint that you desire him. Others may need a greater degree of specific one on one presentation.

If the male is desiring a specific characteristic, they will ignore any female that doesn't fit. No matter how hard she tries.

1. Observe your target
2. Approach your target to gain attention.
3. Present the qualities you think your target is looking for.

If you read him right, he will respond positively according to his culture, morals and desires.
If not, she missed something in the observation process or the acquisition process.
Or, he is not interested in how she presents.

^^^ Very well said Tom, that makes a lot of sense. It was a lot easier when I was in childbearing years and younger. Those men were looking to create a family and continue the family name... even if not consciously.

Maybe that's why so many women find themselves lost after spending years raising a family and catering to her husband... after the children leave and she can no longer produce, there's a "what good am I" feeling. And because they have no other skills other than tending to the family, they are looked upon from society in a negative way because they don't have much to offer.

I've put more emphasis on raising kids and focusing on the relationship. I think that's where my frustration comes in. About the only thing I have to offer is half way decent conversation, decent meals, a clean house, and lots of loving. Men my age don't seem to want that anymore... or so it seems!

But based on what you've said, I'm going about it wrong. I see a man that I'm attracted to and skip the observation period to find out if the qualities I have to offer are the qualities he's looking for. It resulted in a few failures, and I ended up internalizing it thinking there was something wrong with me... when there wasn't, it was the target that was wrong for me.

Reminds me of the game of darts... There are all kinds of darts, the rubbery sticky kind to the steel point kind. If I'm the rubbery sticky kind of dart I'm not going to be able to connect with the boards that require the steel pointy kind of darts.

Solution... observe more and choose the right or better target

Thanks Tom

Interesting for sure, and even though we are mostly driven by our primal instincts to survive and to procreate (which is part of survival), I wonder how much attraction and wanting to be with someone is tied in to the actual ability to produce offspring.
There's a lot of questions to consider:

- What about couples that got together and never got offspring? Woman was always blamed, but often it turned out the man wasn't fertile. In spite of either's infertility, they still got together. There was still initial attraction.

- Why do men find women in their 40s & 50s incredibly attractive? Many women go through menopause in their 40s and even if not, their fertility begins to decrease. My uncle used to say "There's no better woman than a woman in her 50s." Most women in their 50s are post-menopausal...

- women have their sexual peak in their 40s & 50s, in spite of their decreased fertility

- Men's reproductive quality seriously decreases with age as well. Then why is it young women often find old men highly attractive?

- Most women are NOT actually fertile in the moment due to birth-control. This changes their hormones, and as such it then likely also changes their vibe, pheromones even maybe? Wouldn't that change their appeal to men if it was solely based on ability to produce offspring? Meaning almost every woman would be unattractive.

- If it hinged on ability to reproduce, wouldn't a man's appeal change when he has had the snip? Something many have had, and also a reason many fear having one: losing their masculinity. Would it change his hormones and pheromones after a while, and with that their sex-appeal?

- How is it that it's mostly people in their late 40s & 50s who find this special, true love? The kind that's called Soulmate relationship (or Twin Flame). It rarely happens to young people who are allegedly fully fertile.

- How is it that many people in their 70s, 80s, fall in love, have lots of sex? If you hear stories of what goes on in old people homes...
There's people that old, living in such a home, who fall in love, move in together, and get married even.

- Almost all men have increasingly bad/low quality sperm (due to pollution I believe), which some fear will become a problem for our species. Yet, men still find partners and love in spite of this.

In any case, interesting subject material. I agree that attraction and love and so on hinges on the primal instinct of being a good match to create healthy offspring. I just wonder how much the ability to actually reproduce has to do with that. I suppose it was supposed to play a role, but does it really?
Especially nowadays with our highly altered bodies due to too many chemicals, not just birth-control, but chemicals and hormones in everything. Food, drinking water and so on.

Good points Crystal. I can see both sides of what's being said and both make sense.

Perhaps when we were less civilized, it was more guided by the things Tom said.

As we started manipulating nature, it disrupted the natural process of things and now it involves so much more.

I wish I had more time to discuss this, I have to start getting ready for work. I'll write more later though

No worries, have a wonderful day!

You too Crystal, have a wonderful day!

Many women suffer from empty nest syndrome because the kids were all they had and gave all their attention to.
That's why it's so important to have something else going for you in life, to never give up on that either. Meaning you do not put your full focus on your family, but always keep doing things for you as well.
I think in the past women did that too. And sure, the things they did were still 'women things', but it wasn't per say just the family. Women had a sisterhood. And that's where a woman gets her sense of worth, her sense of Self. In the one-ness.
Since in our society we are more individualistic and the factor of having a sisterhood has mostly gone, I suppose women tend to make their family their source of worth. When that 'falls apart' when they leave the nest, she's empty handed.
Personally I've never had empty nest. Not one bit. Not even the slightest sense of it. I embraced having more time to do the things I liked and was interested in. But I have always continued doing stuff for me, even when I was a full-time mother.
When I moved to my current home I was alone for the first time in 24 years! I LOVED it!! It was a bit odd, but in a good way.
But it is important to have goals, dreams, things you like and to go for them too!
I actually think this is why women in their 40s & 50s have tremendous appeal, because they are beaming, happy, free to finally follow their own dreams! She's no longer held back by the obligations & responsibilities that her family put on her.
It could be a reason for a relationship going wrong even, when a woman finally wants to spread her wings and fly, and the man can't keep up, is actually slowing down, had enough of manifesting dreams & career, and wants to snugly curl up in a recliner.

Don't forget men go through penopause. I believe in English it's officially called 'andropause'. We call it penopause in Dutch.
It was discovered that men too go through hormonal changes, and much more so than was known until recently.
Men get a very similar thing in their 40s / 50s. Having achieved the max in their career, having the wife, the kids, the more expensive car and so on. Nothing more to reach, he's reached the end of his goals & dreams from the past. Noticing at work he gets outdone by the younger generation who know more, have new knowledge he doesn't have, are faster than him and so on.
Very harsh for a man as he derives his sense of self and worth from status. That's why competing, sports, a posh car, a pretty wife, a great house, and so on is so important to many men.
These feelings are the reason men in their penopause, or post-penopause, buy a '***** wagon', start flirting with young girls, get an interest in a younger mate when their marriage has fallen apart, and so on. It's a subconscious attempt to regain their 'alpha male' status that they need to have a good sense of self and worth.
Like with women, it's the more empowered ones who get through this with fewer issues. A more empowered man doesn't need a ***** wagon or a young girl, he knows his worth, gets it from other things, doesn't need external factors so much.

So both genders can go through problems, the depth of which depend on how well-rounded/empowered the person is.

Regarding what Tom4Uhere said:

"In the natural world females present themselves to the males that appear to have the qualities they want in a mate. "

I'm doing that, not having any luck.
(nope, don't need advice..thanks...if I want it, I'll ask, m'k?)

I am continually baffled that people don't give any thought to what they want, or need for a long-term relsationship.
I guess most haven't don't any self-examination/ introspection..or ever gave it any thought...just drift into a relationship...

Like I have sid many times...I can't count the number of times guys have said to me (either literally or figuratively) "all that matters is I am attracted to you..everything else will work out/ none of that other stuff (like common interests and goals) matters/ is important"..

No darlin'...that's NOT enough for me....bye, see ya..don't let the door hit ya on the way out...

Men who say that bluegrass probably don't want a commitment with any woman, they just want a date and hop from one to the other.

Men online do that a lot.

Maybe some of the men also aren't entirely sure or clear about what they are looking for. That happens more often than most want to admit. Sometimes that leads to avoidance of commitment or a desire to just date without becoming serious.

For me, I think I've always just wanted companionship above all else. On the downside, there are different levels of companionship. The level I want may scare some women away perhaps. I don't know. Deep down, I really am looking for someone who is my best friend, with whom I can do anything with, and whom I can talk to about anything. All without judgement. Just love, support, and occasionally good advice. My last girlfriend met those standards. I would like my next one to do so as well.

So I'm not interested in "just dating". That doesn't provide the level of companionship I've always wanted.

As I've grown older, I've found that I can fall in love with someone who provides that kind of companionship even if she does not meet some of my other standards, such as appearance, intelligence, age, etc. That means I may not feel that 'spark' right away. The spark may develop over time instead. But once it does, I'm ready for a whole new level of intimacy -- which again might scare some women away.

It has been noted that I move fast. Well, that actually needs to be placed in perspective. If I spend a ton of time talking with someone about a wide variety of topics very early on, that will cause me to feel like I've found someone who can provide a high level of companionship. So I will begin branching conversation into more personal or more intimate areas. If I encounter resistance then, it raises a red flag in my mind. Basically, I have trouble understanding how someone can carry on conversation for hour after hour, day after day, for a week or more without developing some kind of bond. My mind just doesn't comprehend how someone can remain so detached after investing that much time. That's why I become confused. So if a woman wants to move slower than that, then we shouldn't converse like that starting off. In fact, we may only want to chat for an hour or two each day, or maybe every two days.

That's actually what my last girlfriend and I did. We didn't spend 6 - 8 hours talking each day for the entire first week. We did it for the first 2 days, but then slowed down after that. After a couple weeks, we began talking on the phone rather than online. A few weeks after that, we began doing some video chats as well. We didn't have the luxury of being together in person at that time, but we still were building a relationship regardless.

Sometimes I think that's where the confusion lies though - when someone who wants friendship meets someone who wants companionship. There's a fine line between the two which can get blurred early on. Sooner or later, the truth comes out. When it does, the two are not compatible. Then there's all sorts of misunderstandings and hurt feelings.

"Friends first" isn't the same thing as "companionship". They are very similar, but not the same. The former can develop into the latter, but the latter has a different goal and emotional starting point. The former retains a level of detachment while the latter seeks to find a bond early on. They aren't the same.

Maybe this is where some people go wrong. I'm pretty sure it is in my case at least.

I agree about the sisterhood. We don't really define who we are according to others, but we do gauge certain things about ourselves from our interactions with others.

Up until recently I felt all alone in the world, so to speak. With the aches and pains, the concerns, and other things. If you never speak up about it or don't have others that you interact with, it's easy to feel like you're the only one and there's something majorly wrong with you.

Since I have been making friends here, rather than isolating, my whole disposition has changed. Especially since last night after going out with the ladies. We went to the store tonight and I actually flirted with the clerk... it came totally natural, not forced or anything!

Tomorrow I'm going to a nightclub with some of the Y crew to listen to one of our co-workers sing. I'm excited about it... that's huge because normally I'd be apprehensive... I can't wait to get done with work and get all dolled up, lol.

I do believe I've come out of my shell

I like how you think Action. I've wondered about the "spark" as well and maybe it doesn't happen right away... although I would still like it to.

I like the idea of companionship more so than friendship. I'm starting to think maybe friendship won't grow into more. It's friendship! This idea of "let's be friends and see what happens" is for the birds. Generally what happens is we continue to be friends... just friends!

Companionship is more like dating, at least that's my interpretation of it. Someone you like and want to spend time with. Someone you are fond of and possibly looking for more. Like you said, it's a different emotional start.

Good stuff!

I'm 51 years old. I get these 20 year old kids that want to start a family with me. What's that about?

Are they online Cat? If it's online, they're just scammers. If it's face to face, I'm really not sure.

Wow, that's alot of talking a day, let alone for a week. I'm not sure I could talk that much to anyone, even if they lived with me except my grandson, he talks a lot. But even that wears me out.

If I were in your shoes, I would just ignore them. Not even worth firing my brain cells over, whether it's online or not.

As far as offline, from what I've seen based on your profile, you're in a tough spot. I'll admit, I've looked up where you live. It doesn't look like an area with many dating prospects. And driving to a better area appears to be very time consuming.

I can imagine how frustrating it may be for you to find a match, online or offline.