Exactly! Thanks Tom, for helping get back to the topic.

Yes... Please enlighten us!

Hope that was some what relevant to some of your questions.
I have no problem with anyone's life style choices. I live mine and let them live theirs.

Interesting and yes, it was more relevant to the topic... thank you!

Like Tom, I choose a monogamous arrangement. I try not to let my personal opinions get in the way... more live and let live, but there are times when I do... mostly because of ignorance and sometimes because of morals.

Back of topic... thanks for sharing how you feel about women making the first move. I'm discovering more and more men who are okay with it and actually appreciate it. My original thought or belief concerning this, when I started this thread, has been proven wrong... I'm actually glad of that because it opens the doors to many more possibilities and means I don't have to sit back and wait.

Cheers!

You are welcome. My apologies.

The normal 'process' of establishing a relationship usually involves a woman giving the 'signal' and the man 'responding' to it.
In the past (1960s,70s etc...) the women didn't outright ask most times but they displayed interest and the men picked up on it.

Then the "Me Too" thing happened and men started becoming more reserved.
Self-Preservation Mode.
Now, the woman needs to ramp up her enticement so the man knows she wants his attention.
Men appreciate and often require the woman to be completely clear with her intentions.
Just indicating interest is now less acknowledged by men.
You gotta tell us directly so there is no doubt.

Men still respond but we need a confirmation of interest so we understand the women's actual intentions.

I appreciate that but there's really no need to apologize.

A part of me wants to balk at what you said, especially that men will respond if they get confirmation... Doesn't seem to happen for me

Lol, you're totally right though. I might not get the response I want, but I always get a response when I am more direct.

Now I just need to fine tune my picker *laughing*

Observe more, pay attention, and choose more wisely!

There's no problem with thre "Me Too" thing....it wouldn't have to exist if guys would remember to treat women they don't know like their mother or sister..
Would you grope, cat-call, rub up against, or otherwise bother your mom or sister?
No?
Then what makes you think it is OK to do to random women?
Are they not as worthy of resepctful treatment as your mom or sister?

I can understand guys being more cautious about approaching women in real life nowe..and that's probably a good thing..if it cuts down on real and imagined innappropriate behaviour..

But, that's IRL....that doesn't have anything to do with on-line interaction...guys could still contact a woman first on-line...
So, that part is bogus..

And, as I said earlier...I don't have any success with "inidcating" interest....they just ignore me, or grumble a few words and walk away..

I believe the "Me Too" movement has had a very chilling affect on men making any move to initiate contact. Depending on the life status of a man, simply indicating he was interested can be misunderstood. Your words "imagined innappropriate behaviour." is the problem and there is no solution to it as long as being accused is the same as conviction!!

Well, *like* I said...

"Would you grope, cat-call, rub up against, or otherwise bother your mom or sister?
No?
Then what makes you think it is OK to do to random women?
Are they not as worthy of resepctful treatment as your mom or sister?"

Following those guidelines...what's the problem..?

This is about how men feel, it's not about whether what they feel is right or wrong. It's about their opinion and what they think!

I happen to respect that and will pay attention to what they have to say. Because I would like to be successful in initiating a date in the future.

Perhaps rather than mind boggling it to death, trying to place blame or who's right or who's wrong... Try listening to what the other is saying and perhaps you'll learn something...

And maybe even do something different so you have more success!

If pretty much every man is ignoring me or walking away from me... that's not an indication that there's something wrong with Men! It's an indication that there's something wrong with how I am approaching them and the signals I am sending when doing so.

Please stop debating and get back on topic... Thank you!

The "Me Too" discussion is somewhat relevant. But it began long before "Me Too".

The extreme radical feminists have been bashing and stereotyping men for quite some time. For decades actually. And it has begun to filter down into mainstream thought through confirmation bias.

Regular feminists don't do this.

In fact, feminist groups have begun talking about the damage that the extremists have been doing to the women's movement overall. They've written articles and blogs about it. They've even made it a topic at conventions. You might even find some discussions on TED Talks about it.

Men have been talking amongst themselves about the effects of man-bashing for at least 30 years now. It's created a counter-movement. That movement has resulted in men's groups, man-caves, and even The Man Show with Jimmy Kimmel and Adam Corolla (long before Kimmel got his late night show).

It has had a psychological effect on many men of older generations who were raised under more traditional social customs. Some have rebelled. Some have become more withdrawn. But a lot of men actually do talk about it, and the frustration of having a mistake or an inaccurate understanding thrown back in their face in such a way that they not only can get publicly smeared but may even face jail time.

I'm not talking about celebrities. I'm talking about everyday people.

For instance, when I was in college...
The State of Maine passed a date rape law. At that time, the wording of the law stated that if a man and a woman had sex after either the woman OR BOTH had been drinking alcohol, that constituted date rape, and the MAN could be held accountable, regardless of comparative levels of intoxication or mutual consent.

It was a very poor wording. It failed to take several things into account. The law was pushed through "to show we are doing something" based on the hot topic of the day.

I've known men who were raped by women. And yes, alcohol was involved.

But I've also known women who were raped by men, and the man got away with it, which angered me to no end....especially when one confided in me, then told me not to tell her mom for reasons I cannot disclose.

So I'm not saying that "Me Too" is bad. I'm just saying that the flip side doesn't receive as much attention. That creates a bias that filters down into society, and men have become very aware of that bias.

It's one reason why men don't like subtleties. Anything that becomes subject to personal interpretation -- which may or may not change after the fact -- can evolve into something much more devastating.

So yes, some men have come to prefer that the woman make the first move to avoid any misunderstandings that might result in serious - and potentially false - accusations.

Frankly, I don't give a damn about the "Me Too" thing.
I was simply making a response to the topic and offering an opinion of why men might want a woman to be more agressive than in the past.

Personally I respect others, man or woman.
I also place no value on status because we all bleed blood and every single one of us dies at some time.
There's no reason to be hostile to anyone unless you've become mad at the world and that is a whole different personality issue.

But, from a man's point of view (help me out here guys) there are some things we would love to see from a woman in the relationship 'game'...

Lets see if we can come up with an action plan for those women that want to be more aggressive without coming off as sleazy.

Cheerfulness
While being over-all cheerful can't hurt the cheerfulness I'm referring to is the light up you display when you see someone you want to meet.
I know I notice the extra glow in her eyes when she looks at me. I kinda like that because it makes me feel that she is extra happy to see me. This opens me to positive interaction with her.

Sadness or Stress
Sadness and stress usually gives negative results unless the man you are targeting has a need to help women in distress. I'd be careful with that because after a relationship is established it could make that personality type cause sadness or stress to fill his needs.

Being Complete
Many women think men respond well to needy women.
Some men do want to complete you. They want to fix you, provide for you and save you.
That is another dangerous personality.
When I see a woman that needs a man to be her, I see a woman that doesn't know how to take care of herself.
When I see a woman that has her shidt together it makes her attractive to me. Be self-assured and personally complete.

Appearance
Appearance is kinda tricky. For the most part she should look and smell clean. She shouldn't have everything caked on like a clown. Her clothes should be practical for the activity they are attending.
Evening gown at a bowling alley, shorts and tank top at a fine restaurant, that kinda thing is out of whack.

Location
I believe the location is important as well. Most of the time, outside is the best place to approach. If you're hitting on me while I'm supposed to be working and the boss is watching, I'm not gunna like it.
If you hit on me while I'm playing a game of football or basket ball, I'm probably not going to notice you and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to give you any attention because my attention is on something else.
Wait till I am out away from distractions to deliver your advance.
Personally, I have no idea what to do about cell phone addiction.
I find people on their phones as unapproachable because they are 'occupied' and I don't want to interrupt them.

The Man's Conditions
This is pretty important.
If you observe your target before approaching and get to know his habits and comfort zones you won't find yourself dismissed as much.

If he's filthy dirty and hot from work, wait till he gets cleaned up.

If he is anxious about something, wait till he is more cordial and relaxed.

If he is displaying illness symptoms, you might wait till he's feeling better.

Yes, you might be able to offer him relief or compassion but he's probably not going to respond like you hope.
I deal with pain and sickness and when I'm in pain or feeling nauseous I'm certainly not looking to be approached by woman for a relationship.
Quite frankly, I won't even be paying you much attention.

Choose Your Words
What you say to me is going to set the tone of the interaction.
Not sure about other men but I appreciate direct.
Just say it, don't beat around the bush and expect me to pick up what you mean.
I really don't want to play those games.
Its not high school.
We're adults and think like adults.
Say what you mean and mean what you say.

I'm sure there are other men that could offer you more understanding or tips to get our positive attention.

Rejection
No matter what you try, you tried.
If rejected, just move to your next target.
Consider, if you did the best you can, he might not be the one that matters.
You don't need to find 'every' man, you only really need to find one (for most people).
"Okay, this one didn't work out, NEXT..."

Very well said and informative... Thanks Tom

I love the movie, "What Women Want". After watching it I wondered what it would be like to have it reversed, "What Men Want". Although, maybe it's a good thing we can't hear each other's thoughts, lol..

Learning each other's language and seeing through the eyes of another is an excellent way to understand what works for them. That's pretty important when it comes to relationships, and the initiating process. If someone hates roses, you don't give them roses just because you love them and expect that person to be happy with them.

I like it

As River said, the topic is about how men feel. If she (or anyone else) wants to understand that, then this is one part of the topic that does need to be covered with more than just a cursory reference.

It's not about whining or complaining. It's about reaching a common understanding.



And here you touch on another aspect that makes men pull back.

Many women have attitudes, and are verbally combative. They go full-offense, using that offense as their defense without giving a man time to think, let alone gain some composure and control over their emotions. If the man says he needs to walk away to collect himself, the woman won't grant him the opportunity.

Just look at reality t.v. It's full of stuff like this. Personally, I can't stand reality t.v., but there are millions in this country who watch it on a regular basis. That's going to have an impact on how people behave around other people.

I'm turned off by women who are like that. Just as I'm turned-off by constant trash-talking -- it can be fun in small doses, but some people make it a way of life.



Here you dive right into positive and constructive thought, but to be realistic, you must acknowledge both the positives and the negatives.

I understand that you're trying to keep the thread from spiraling into a gripe-fest. The problem is, you can't just ignore the negative types of behavior that make some men wary about women.

Just as women don't want a man who's abusive or womanizing, men don't want a woman who's going to use him or make him feel like trash.

As it turns out, one big area that you left out was ATTITUDE. You touched on it only tangentially, but attitude can be either a turn-on or a turn-off. It's a lot more than just Cheerfulness, Sadness/Stress, Completeness (aka Independence), Man's Condition (aka Empathy), Wording (aka Tactfulness), and Appearance.

For instance, what about:

Composure (outside of rejection)
Interaction (with others while you're with each other)
Habits (OCD? No filter? Loud? Heavy drinking? Etc.)

The point is, if a woman wants to approach a guy and land him, she's going to want to put her proverbial best foot forward.

The problem with that becomes, is she still being herself, or just pretending to be something she's not?

That's the flaw in what you've presented.

As a guy, I don't want someone who puts on a show just to impress me. I want to be sure that she and I are compatible even on our worst days. I want to see the real her. Otherwise, it's not going to last more than a handful of dates.

I write off a lot of women because I just don't like what I see. I'm speaking of the entire package, not just appearance.

The number one thing I look for in a woman?
Depth of personality

Having experienced this scenario multiple times, the end result is the same.

Hey you! Good to see you

So, would you care to share what that end result is?

Hey

I thought it was obvious since I'm here . Lol
So really the Hollywood endings we think we might end up in if guys made the move is an illusion .