2 things - since it was written by men, its only subject to their interpretation of God says or wants, and rewritten many times... Reminds me of the game in school where you tell someone something to pass on to their nieghbor, and by the time it gets back to you, everything has changed..

And I have no idea what that John 313 is supposed to mean..I'm not big on parables... Sems to me Jesus died on the cross, did he not?

Yes, very good. I played that game too. We called it Telephone.

But there is a solution. I use the oldest and most complete manuscripts that are available to mankind today. They are...

Codex Vaticanus (a & b)
Codex Alexandrinus
Codex Sinaiticus


As far as I know, there is no John 313. But John 3:13 says...

CLV John 3:13 And not one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven.

It means you are not going to heaven unless you came from heaven.


Yes, Jesus died on a cross. And?

What about Elijah?

(2Ki 2:11) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Clearly John 3:13 is wrong.

And Enoch?

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." (Heb 11:5)

I'm guessing different bible versions say different things...kinda odd how they went to a monotheistic way, only to still have multiple versions of the same God...

Furch just to clear up my last post in response to one of yours involving Elijah and Enoch, I know you didn't say they died , but translated.

That being said what I was pointing out was they haven't died YET.
The Word of God states that it is appointed to all men to die once with no exceptions to be found.

It also says in the last days(during the 7 year tribulation) there will be two witnesses who will be proclaiming The Word of God and that they will be murdered.

Keeping Scripture harmonious and by applying the knowledge of The Word it only makes complete sense that the two witnesses will be Elijah and Enoch.

What one needs to be concerned about is dying the second death (spiritually).

Those who die the second death will not be part of the Kingdom of God.

"Translated" means to change from one form or state to another. In Elijah and Enoch's cases, translated means changed instantly from the mortal, physical, material form into the spiritual form (in a "chariot" of spiritual flames (2Ki 2:11)), by-passing normal mortal death. Elijah and Enoch ARE on the mansions (John 14:2) now. They will never die, or return here. They are on their journey to Paradise.

Merriam-Webster (See #2b below, bolded)

Definition of translate

transitive verb
1 a : to turn into one's own or another language
b : to transfer or turn from one set of symbols into another : transcribe
c (1) : to express in different terms and especially different words : paraphrase (2) : to express in more comprehensible terms : explain, interpret
2 a : to bear, remove, or change from one place, state, form, or appearance to another : transfer, transform translate ideas into action

b : to convey to heaven or to a nontemporal condition without death

c : to transfer (a bishop) from one see to another

And Heb_9:27 does not say "with no exceptions to be found." That, apparently, has been added by men. By you?

Also, no one even knows who wrote Hebrews.

Wikipedia:
Authorship
Main article: Authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews
By the end of the first century there was no consensus on the author’s identity. Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Paul the Apostle, and other names were proposed. Others later suggested Luke the Evangelist, Apollos, or his teacher Priscilla as possible authors.[12]

Though no author is named, the original King James Version of the Bible titled the work "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews". However, the KJV's attribution to Paul was only a guess, and is currently disputed by recent research.[6] Its vastly different style, different theological focus, different spiritual experience, different Greek vocabulary – all are believed to make Paul's authorship of Hebrews increasingly indefensible. At present, neither modern scholarship nor church teaching ascribes Hebrews to Paul.[13]

Because of its anonymity, it had some trouble being accepted as part of the Christian canon, being classed with the Antilegomena. Eventually it was accepted as scripture because of its sound theology, eloquent presentation, and other intrinsic factors.[6]:431 In antiquity, certain circles began to ascribe it to Paul in an attempt to provide the anonymous work an explicit apostolic pedigree.[14]

In the 4th century, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo supported Paul's authorship: the Church largely agreed to include Hebrews as the fourteenth letter of Paul, and affirmed this authorship until the Reformation. Scholars argued that in the 13th Chapter of Hebrews, Timothy is referred to as a companion. Timothy was Paul's missionary companion in the same way Jesus sent disciples out in pairs of two. Also, the writer states that he wrote the letter from "Italy", which also at the time fits Paul.[15] The difference in style is explained as simply an adjustment to a distinct audience, to the Jewish Christians who were being persecuted and pressured to go back to traditional Judaism.[16] Many scholars now believe that the author was one of Paul's pupils or associates, citing stylistic differences between Hebrews and the other Pauline epistles.[17] Recent scholarship has favored the idea that the author was probably a leader of a predominantly Jewish congregation to whom he or she was writing.[18]

Believing the author to have been Priscilla, Hoppin posits that the name was omitted either to suppress its female authorship, or to protect the letter itself from suppression.[19]

Also convinced that Priscilla was the author of Hebrews, Gilbert Bilezikian, professor of biblical studies at Wheaton College, remarks on "the conspiracy of anonymity in the ancient church," and reasons: "The lack of any firm data concerning the identity of the author in the extant writings of the church suggests a deliberate blackout more than a case of collective loss of memory." [20]

A.J. Gordon ascribes the authorship of Hebrews to Priscilla, writing that "It is evident that the Holy Spirit made this woman Priscilla a teacher of teachers". Originally proposed by Adolf von Harnack in 1900,[21] Harnack’s reasoning won the support of prominent Bible scholars of the early twentieth century. Harnack believes the letter was written in Rome – not to the Church, but to the inner circle. In setting forth his evidence for Priscillan authorship, he finds it amazing that the name of the author was blotted out by the earliest tradition. Citing Chapter 13, he says it was written by a person of "high standing and apostolic teacher of equal rank with Timothy". If Luke, Clemens, Barnabas, or Apollos had written it, Harnack believes their names would not have been obliterated.[22]

Donald Guthrie’s commentary The Letter to the Hebrews (1983) mentions Priscilla by name as a suggested author.[23]

In the 3rd century, Origen wrote of the letter,

"In the epistle entitled To The Hebrews the diction does not exhibit the characteristic roughness of speech or phraseology admitted by the Apostle [Paul] himself, the construction of the sentences is closer to the Greek usage, as anyone capable of recognising differences of style would agree. On the other hand the matter of the epistle is wonderful, and quite equal to the Apostle's acknowledged writings: the truth of this would be admitted by anyone who has read the Apostle carefully...If I were asked my personal opinion, I would say that the matter is the Apostle's but the phraseology and construction are those of someone who remembered the Apostle's teaching and wrote his own interpretation of what his master had said. So if any church regards this epistle as Paul's, it should be commended for so doing, for the primitive Church had every justification for handing it down as his. Who wrote the epistle is known to God alone: the accounts that have reached us suggest that it was either Clement, who became Bishop of Rome, or Luke, who wrote the gospel and the Acts."[24]

Further, "Men of old have handed it down as Paul's, but who wrote the Epistle God only knows".[25]

It doesn't matter who wrote the book of Hebrews.

The Bible states that it is appointed for men to DIE ONCE.

No where in the Bible does it make an exception.

What are you talking about adding words???

This isn't the urantia book.

So it only makes sense that the two witnesses would be Elijah and Enoch since they haven't died (YET).

This isn't difficult to understand.

At the very least it is very plausible.

What bothers me about many Christian apologists is the arrogance they display, as if the Scriptures amalgamated into the Vulgate in the 5th century was the last and definitive word on Truth.
Consider:
The concept of free will originated with Zoroaster.
The Ten Commandments is a rewrite of the Code of Hammurabi
The Virgin birth of a god was depicted by Isis' birth of Horus
-All predate Christianity by at least 2,000 years.
A clue might be Moses (reputedly the original author of the first five books of the Old Testament (the Torah)) who spent his early years in Egypt where he had access to the Library of Alexandria, THE repository of knowledge of the known world at the time.
Ditto Christ, who spent his early years in Egypt, where he astounded the scholars, remember?
As for the text being the Word of God, it has been established that there were at least three major rewrites of portions of the Torah by scribes who did the best they could during the Jewish Diaspora in Babylon.
Multiple authorship of some of the Gospels has been established as well.
There were many other texts available to the early Christian Church that didn't make it into the Vulgate. Why not? Because the head honchos at the time deemed it otherwise. Check out Pope Damasus' record of how he won the office and decide if this is the type of person you would want handling your sacred texts.
There are many religions. All have their value. Study them all with a grain of salt to make them palatable and hopefully, you'll form a grain of Truth to carry you through life.

That's like saying, I drive the oldest and rustiest Model T available to mankind today.

Well, it should matter. Just because you believe it's "God's word" doesn't negate the need to know who authored it. Maybe it's not "God's word" at all. How would you know?



The bible states a lot of things. Not everyone here is a bibliolator. This is not the Bible Forum.

Lazarus died more than once.



It doesn't matter. This is not the Bible Forum. It has not been agreed to by everyone here that the bible is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Anyway, Lazarus is clearly an exception.



You essentially added your own words when you said, "The Word of God states that it is appointed to all men to die once with no exceptions to be found."

The "Word of God" does NOT state that there are no exceptions to be found. You added that condition yourself.



Indeed. Don't be afraid to read it.

Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it. -196:1.3 The Urantia Book

Agree? Disagree? Or do you think that "of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value to know is that 'it is appointed to all men to die once' as some anonymous writer once said 2000 years ago"?



Not at all. And if you do some Googling, you'll quickly find that there are a lot more opinions on the subject of the two witnesses than just what you and your sect of Christianity believe.



It's not plausible. Enoch and Elijah are no longer material beings, mortals like us, nor are they here. They are on the "many mansions" (John 14:2) that Jesus spoke of and they are in spiritual form and they are NOT coming back.

The business of "fusion" with the Father fragment within (Luke 17:21), and translation to the "mansions" is something that Christians know little about. In fact, the profound truth of Luke 17:21 has been lost to Christianity, but it's closely related to what happened to Elijah and Enoch.

"...behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21)

And no, Jesus didn't mean "near you" or nearby or "in your midst" or around you, and so on. There is a pre-personal fragment of God the Father within every normal minded human being on this earth, and within every normal minded mortal on every inhabited world in the universe, and there are a lot of them.

Jesus was also talking about them when he said:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

No, contrary to what Ludlow (you remember him?) says, "this fold" is not the Catholic church on planet earth. "This fold" IS planet earth.

You can know more, blake, but you have to be open to new truth.

Regardless of the story of Lazarus, that just backs up the appointed to die once statement. Nothing was mentioned about not dying more then one time , just once at least.

As far as my no exceptions statement, that isn't me adding anything which should be obvious.
The fact that there are no obvious written exceptions to the die once verse in the Bible is exactly that.

Where are you coming up with adding words???

Elijah and Enoch are clearly the accurate individuals to be considered for the two witnesses.

Like I said it is quite plausible.

Why do you have an issue with this?

CLV John 3:13 And not one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven.

Perhaps Elijah and Enoch were from Heaven.



No, it's not.

CLV Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was transferred, so as not to be acquainted with death, and was not found, because God transfers him. For before his transference he is attested to have pleased God well.

The word used is "transferred," not "translate."

Strong's

G3346 metatithemi met-at-ith'-ay-mee
from G3326 and G5087;

to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert.

QUOTE:
What about Elijah?

(2Ki 2:11) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Clearly John 3:13 is wrong.

Jesus said, "...The Spirit of truth, ...will guide you into all truth." (John 16:13)

But what if someone believes that they or their sect of one or many already knows everything? Maybe their claim to being a bible scholar is, "I have been working in the Scriptures since I was 18." What if such a person was able to sneak into a bible scholar conference with say, the likes of Bart Ehrman, Marcus Borg, Rudolf Bultmnann, Charles Ryrie, et al, there, and they asked, "What are your qualifications to attend and contribute to this meeting? What schools did you attend?" And the answer was, "I have been working in the Scriptures since I was 18."

The Spirit of Truth cannot, and will not, change anyone's previously settled beliefs. In such a case, and there are many, where a person believes they already have all truth, that they basically know it all, The Spirit of Truth cannot function in that person's mind. The Spirit of Truth can no more guide a person who thinks they already know it all into truth than a man who leads a horse to water can make it drink. If you believe wrong things, the Spirit of Truth will not correct you against your will. You must be open to new truth. You must be thirsty.



Whatever. When you start "perhapsing" and "iffing," the train has left the track.

QUOTE:
That's like saying, I drive the oldest and rustiest Model T available to mankind today.



You are mistaken. Translate is the word. The King James got it right.



First of all, Strongs was not written by God. It doesn't matter what Strongs says. What matters is what the Spirit of Truth, not Strongs, says, but you have to be open to the truth. In any case, you seem to be cherry picking Strongs, you left a lot out. Other people can look up Strongs too even if you have been working in the bible since you were 18.

Heb 11:5  By faithG4102 EnochG1802 was translatedG3346 that he should notG3361 seeG1492 death;G2288 andG2532 was notG3756 found,G2147 becauseG1360 GodG2316 had translatedG3346 him:G846 forG1063 beforeG4253 hisG846 translationG3331 he had this testimony,G3140 that he pleasedG2100 God.G2316

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=niv&strongs=g3346

The KJV translates Strong's G3346 in the following manner: translate (2x), carry over (1x), remove (1x), change (1x), turn (1x).

"Transfer" is not even mentioned, above.

TO CHANGE is to TRANSLATE from one substance to another.

As Merriam Webster says:
TRANSLATE:
a : to turn into one's own or another language
b : to transfer or turn from one set of symbols into another : transcribe
c (1) : to express in different terms and especially different words : paraphrase (2) : to express in more comprehensible terms : explain, interpret
2 a : to bear, remove, or change from one place, state, form, or appearance to another : transfer, transform translate ideas into action
b : to convey to heaven or to a nontemporal condition without death
c : to transfer (a bishop) from one see to another

b : to convey to heaven or to a nontemporal condition without death -and this is exactly what happened to Elijah and Enoch. The King James is correct when it uses the word "translate." And the truth of this matter has now been revealed to you. The question is now, What are you going to do with this truth?

Strong’s Definitions (Strong’s Definitions Legend)
μετατίθημι metatíthēmi, met-at-ith'-ay-mee; from G3326 and G5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:—carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

2. to change (Herodotus 5, 68); passive of an office the mode of conferring which is changed, Hebrews 7:12; 71 τί εἰς τί, to turn one thing into another (τινα εἰς πτηνην φύσιν, Anth. 11, 367, 2);

So you have cherry picked Strongs because, not being open to the truth of the matter, you prefer "transfer" to "translate."

Warning: Don't read this if you are not open to new truth because you won't be able to un-read it.

Here is the truth, the revealed, or re-revealed, truth about Luke 17:21, "...behold, the kingdom of God is within you," and "translation" and "fusion" (fusion comes first before translation). And there is a definite link between Luke 17:21 and Hebrews 11:5, IF you are open to new truth. And you MUST be open to new truth or the Spirit of Truth cannot operate within you. If you say, "Oh yeah, I'm open to new truth but only if it agrees with what I already believe or only if it agrees with what my sect says the bible says," then you tie the hands of the Spirit of Truth and you are not, in fact, open to new truth.

Jesus said "The kingdom of God is within you." This is a profound truth that has been lost to Christianity. And they (Christians) go to great lengths to parse away this profound truth, they'll say, "Oh, Jesus didn't mean that. He meant "near you" or "around you" or "in your midst," etc. (It's similar to how some try to parse away the concept of "translation" by claiming the word should be "transfer," as Jesus said: "Making the word of God of none effect." Mark 7:13) They don't want to think that God is within everyone, but only in them, Christians. But there is an actual pre-personal fragment of God within every human being, which comes with the occurance of a child's first moral decision, usually around age 5 or 6. Later, as an adult who has developed enough spiritually, when you align your will perfectly with God's will as Enoch and Elijah did, you FUSE and become ONE with that pre-personal fragment of God and you are "translated" in a "chariot of [spiritual] flames" directly to "the mansion worlds" which Jesus referred to as the "many mansions in my Father's house." (John 14:2) They are not exactly "heaven" but they have been perceived as such in human visions and literature. There's seven mansion worlds, the "seven heavens." When you fuse with the pre-personal Father fragment, that fragment of God gains personality, yours, and you gain a measure of divinity. The bible, and Christian doctrine, know little or nothing about these things.

Elijah and Enoch both "fused" with the fragment of God within them and they were both "translated" (changed from one form, the material, physical form, to another form, a semi-spiritual state of the sort Jesus had when he rose from the dead) in a "chariot of [spiritual] fire directly to the mansions that Jesus referred to and both of them BYPASSED NORMAL MORTAL DEATH. They never died and they never will, they made it to "heaven" without dying.

On many worlds, when the planet is spiritually advanced enough, these "fusions" and "translations" are commonplace and people go to special places for the big day and friends and relatives come to see them off and wish them well. These are special facilities for these events and also for the protection of the bystanders from the spiritual energies of the fusion/translation process. These same spiritual energies were probably what was released in Jesus' tomb that caused some sort of x-ray type image to be inprinted in the tell-tale chemicals of the Shroud of Turin.

Very few humans "fuse" with the Father fragment while here on earth. Elijah and Enoch were exceptions. And there may be others that we don't know about, and not just from Judaism or Christianity. But as, and if, the world advances spiritually, it may become more common. In any case, if it doesn't happen here, it WILL happen at some point in our post-resurrection career beginning on the "mansions," or "The Mansion Worlds" as The Urantia Book calls them. You (we) will be able to take all the time we need to become spiritually perfected enough to fuse. We have all eternity. And there are some who will choose not to make the journey after all. As Jesse Winchester sang:

Life is just too short for some folks
For other folks it just drags on
Some folks like the taste of smokey whiskey
Others figure tea's too strong
-"Nothing but a breeze"

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

But perfection will not be handed to you magically after you die. Like everything else, you will have to earn it. If you were dysfunctional here, you will wake up on the mansions in the same condition, only with better teachers, and you will also have the knowledge of your own survival and that of others.

Tom4uhere there might be different school of thoughts due to varying levels of understanding.
But one central theme is that wi Jesus Christ(YESHUA) IS LORD. I believe that faith in his death by crucifixation for sinful humanity,resurrection for our justification,ascention to heaven and future descent on the mount of Olivet reign . And I and all those who believe in him shall reign with him. Praise God!
Faith in Jesus Christ is the focus not hell or any so called kjv error.

One thing my life has taught me is that I desire no power and no riches beyond what have. I don't seek a prize. I exist, sometimes I exist more comfortable than other times.
I no longer see myself as worthy or unworthy of anything. I don't see the world I live in as corrupt. I don't need to be "saved" from anything.
When I die, everything that is me will die. I will end. My belief will end. I won't 'see' anything ever again. Not only because my body will die but also my imagination that comes from my body will die.
I know, from my own experience with religion, that the only thing that matters to everything is being with God. Christ represents a way to be sinful and still be able to be with God. The Bible is a way to be with God. I think people forget that. Religion painted me as unworthy to be with God and placed stipulations on me to believe things that didn't make sense. The people that I considered wise to teach me had more wrong with themselves than I. Everyone I met were hypocrites and fakes. Religion is a conflict that caused my serious stress. As I started to remove my delusions I found religion lost its influence. The less I believed, the more contentment and inner peace I gained.
The Bible is nothing more than a book.
The Cross is nothing more than a statue.
The Church is nothing more than a building.
The Congregation is nothing more than a group of people.
Prayer is nothing more than a wish.
Heaven and Hell is nothing more than promises of rewards and punishments.

The moment someone puts reverence into these things they become idols.
An idol is a tool used to worship something.
If faith is strong in the mind, they don't need tools to help them worship.

My God, requires nothing from me. I require nothing from My God.
I require nothing from other people for me to believe in God.
My God is nothing like anyone else's God. I doubt I will ever find anyone that has the same God as I. I know it will never be a religious God. Not even close.

I do however, understand that some people need religion to find contentment and love. Some actually do.
What I also see is that many people have reasoning conflicts in their religion. They don't have contentment and inner peace. They don't feel the love they have been told they should. The exist in a perpetual conflict between the religion they are told they need and the reality of life.
They feel they need to justify to anyone how their religion is proof because it gives their belief system meaning. They get tunnel-vision and get lost in the process. Their lives are full of stress. Their relationships with others fail. Their sight starts focusing on the negative things in life. They will tell people they are happy, that they see positive things around them then they will brood over it. Their religion is based on a defective existence needing some type of saving from.
I no longer need to be saved from myself or the world. I'm not afraid of reality. I don't need rewards and punishments to make me feel better.
I see people as people, I'm a people. We are all individuals. Nobody is better or worse than me, just different.
I'm okay with that.

Exactly.

I do agree. However, are you doing what we have been instructed to do?

CLV John 14:12 Verily, verily, I am saying to you, he who is believing in Me, the works which I am doing he also will be doing, and greater than these will he be doing, for I am going to the Father.

Where are the Christians who are doing His works? Healing the sick? Raising the dead?

Or have we fallen into a lul because man's religion tells us it's alright to ignore that part of the Scriptures?

Christianity and Judaism both teach that there is only one God. Some may be confused about the instructions He left.

I will further this thought:

Yeshua, after being asked by Philip to shew him the Father, responded with 2 very important clues.

1. Yeshua said, have I not been with you this long that you "DO NOT KNOW ME?"...when you [see] the Father you [see] Me...when you [see] Me you [see] the Father.


2. Yeshua furthered this statement with "I am not doing the works you [see]. the Father that LIVES INSIDE ME IS DOING THE WORKS [John 14:10
10 Don't you believe that I am united with the Father, and the Father united with me? What I am telling you, I am not saying on my own initiative; [[the Father living in me]] is doing his own works.




so, outside of Yeshua explaining that looking at Him is looking at the FATHER Colossians 1:15
15 He is the [[visible image of the invisible God]]. He is supreme over all creation...
He also makes it clear that living inside Him is the FATHER.


which this is very important here. [[((if the SON was His own person))]] [then the FATHER would not dwell in Him]. I believe this is concrete proof that the flesh Yeshua was actually the FATHER all along.

another key:
what do we have living in us as believers?
Holy Spirit [the Spirit of the Father][that connects us to the Father].

so Yeshua had the FATHER living in Him and we have the Spirit of the Father living in us.

to me, this is proof of ONLY ONE GOD and Yeshua/Yahweh are the same being [as Spirit and in the flesh].


Colossians 1 explains that Yeshua created ALL THINGS.

John called Yeshua the WORD.

now, lets put this in biblical example:

Genesis 1:2-3
2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

Here the ((Creator)) [[is in Spirit form]] but we know this is actually Yeshua [the Father lives inside Me].
and verse 3 states God said [this is the WORD in action].

the entire Bible is a reflection of Yeshua/Yahweh, WHO is the ONE GOD!!

this is why Catholics changed original Matthew 28:19...because Yeshua commanding to baptize in His NAME [is the authority of the FATHER]...and they changed it to create the unholy trinity!!

this is why I am like the Messianic Jews = ONENESS!!