Your points are impossible to argue with. You have rock solid reasoning.



Yep, another perfect inconsistency! Disobedience becomes favored behavior.

God can't seem to make up his mind what the hell he wants from us!

The trouble is, when you postulate non-linear time, you open up more cans of worms like time paradoxes. And since the beings reading these books are known by the alleged author to be constrained to linear time, why not present it in a manner with which they are familiar?

And exactly how does the non-linear or un-linear time in this example work? Any skeptic can, within the rules of argument, just as legitamately ask for explanations. Extraordinary (and non-linear time is exactly that) requires extraordinary proof.

See, to me, Occam's Razor suggests this explanation is more than likely deus ex machina. But I'm more than willing to listen to explanations-- someone may very well come up with insight I've not thought of before.




Well, when it says 'in the day' and follows with an emphatic word like 'surely', I don't see as it being an unreasonable conclusion to draw that his warning was meant to suggest immediate retribution.

Your mileage may vary.



Fair enough. But what are we seeing in these forums? People on your side of the argument are denouncing people who disagree out of hand with blanket dismissals of their work. I think many of us with the temerity to post what we feel were legitimate inconsistiences knew coming in that we faced a kangaroo court.

Too, I think you know that folks like me are not basing their atheism or agnostism on Biblical errancy. Even a lot of Christians say they think the Bible was written by fallible humans who just got a few things slightly wrong. No, we base it on sober reflection and the experiences of our lives. Yet, we are denounced for asking questions and pointing out troubles we see with dogma. Sometimes in very harsh ways. Which to me, seems to be one of the greatest inconsistencies of all-- people who claim to practice a religion of peaceful lovingkindness acting anything but.


-Kerry O.

I DONT KNOW WHY THERE IS SO MANY VERSIONS AND SO MANY DIVISIONS IN THE BODY BUT I DO KNOW I PICKED UP THE BIBLE 2 YEARS AGO AND MY LIFE HAS NOT BEEN THE SAME SINCE I WAS BLIND NOW I SEE THE HOPE IN MY HEART IS OFF THE CHAIN NOT THE KINDA HOPE MOST THINK OF WHEN EVERYTHIMG WORKING OUT AND YOUR LIFE SITUATION IS DESIRABLE THATS THE PEACE THE WORLD KNOWS IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEACE THAT JESUS LEFT THAT SURPASSES MY UNDERSTANDING THAT EVEN WHEN HELL ON MY FRONT PORCH I STILL HAVE HIS PRAISE ON MY LIPS HOW COULD A INCONSISTANT ORDINARY BOOK OF POETRY TAKE FOUL MOUTH CONVICT FROM THE PROJECTS AND HUMBLE HIS HARD HEART TO THE POINT THAT HE RAISES HIS HANDS AND LIFTS HIS EYES BECAUSE HE FOUND OUT WHERE HIS HELP COMES FROM. THE BIBLE WILL SEEM LIKE ONE BIG DARK PARABLE TO THOSE WHO DONT KNOW GOD YOU CANT UNDERSTANT WITH OUT THE HOLY SPIRIT AND HIS WORD IS LIGHT AND DARKNESS FLEES FROM IT SO IF YOUR LIVING DARK IT WILL OFFEND YOU AND YOU WILL COUNT IT AS HOPLESS AND MEANINGLESS TO YOU. I THANK JESUS SO MUCH FOR HIS WORD A ANCHOR FOR MY SOUL AND BANNER IN MY HEART TO GET PAST THE DAY. I WOULD NEVER HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE WORDS IN THE BOOK WITHOUT GOD LETTING ME I HAD TO ASK HIM FOR UNDERSTANDING AND HE FREELY GAVE

Ok…so same calculation….but with 100 million (x .0001), instead of 300 million. One minute per animal (very generous). It would still take over 4 months 24X7 for them to board the ship, if they were all standing right there. A total of 8 months added to the trip, simply in loading and unloading animals, no supplies. I couldn’t even imagine the amount of supplies you would need to support that cargo.

Regardless…. You are talking about a science and engineering feat not possible today, and an obnoxiously large crew (I’m talking 1000’s….witch just adds to the complication…sleeping quarters, logistics, food, water, and waist) the Idea of loading and maintaining a ship that can hold that hold that many animals is completely out of the realm of possibility, especially when you take the measurements of the ark, that are in the bible.

A Nimitz class (Nuclear powered) aircraft carrier can only hold up to 90 aircraft and needs a crew of 3,000 to 5,000 people to function. They only have to maintain themselves and machinery. And they need a whole lot of “support” ships to keep them supplied with the things they need, such as food.

…..and the “One Kind” of animal argument, is biologically unsound.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, how can you not see that this argument is reaching for an explanation, at best? ….in reality, this story is a fairy tale and completely made up.

Again, I dislike arguing the Noah story….just for this reason. I might as well be debating whether Hercules was really born out of an affair with a mortal woman and a god. (Sound familiar?) There is no point. It’s ridiculous to even consider.

I’m still pissed at the god for drowning all the children in the Noah story, and killing innocent peoples first born children because of pharaoh’s stubbornness. Does nothing to the pharaoh….but takes it out on innocent people…and their children.

If there were such a thing as Satan….how would you discern between this behavior and Satins? That behavior is about as evil as it gets.

What do you mean 100 million? 10 million tops and the majority of those species are aquatic.



The crew was eight people. Four men and four women. The ship wasn't piloted or sailed, it's sole purpose was to carry the people and animals safely through the storm. Since the Ark was created on a high hill, when the water picked the boat up, there was nothing for the Ark to crash into.



You just said that the story of Noah was a fairy tale and now you say you are pissed at God for the flood? How can you be pissed at God for something you say didn't happen?

God killed Pharoah's first son and then destroyed Pharoah and his army. What do you mean that God did nothing to Pharoah? He wasn't exempt from any of the plagues.

Obviously if the story of Noah were true it would be all the terrible things you say. Somehow people overlook the little children in all of this. The idea that everyone is evil is utter nonsense. This is the kind of crap that arrogant fire & brimstone preachers preach. These men are so pathetically unhappy with their own lives all they can seem to do is try to use religion to bring everyone else down to their level of misery.

It’s utterly absurd and a sign of gross mental ineptitude to even remotely consider that God drown all human beings on the face of the earth. As you point out such a deity would certainly be a demon, and there would be excuse for such ignorant behavior.

Such a God would certainly be compassionately inferior to many human beings.

There’s no need to get pissed at the mythological stories of this demonic God. Let’s face it, these stories simply can’t be true! If they were God would indeed be a demon and not the all-loving entity that he is supposed to be.

However, I think it’s important to be able to toss the Bible in the trash can and still realize that there is a god. Just because one stupid book got it all wrong doesn’t mean that there is no god! God simple has nothing to do with the Bible. That’s all.



Your faith in God is what lifted you!

The book was merely a symbolic physical crutch that you chose to cling to.

Many people find God directly without any need to associate God with a physical idol.

Don’t fall into the trap of worshiping a book!

The power comes from God, not from stories written by men.

I can toss a Bible in a burn barrel and know that I have done God a favor.

Don’t confuse a book (or a religion) for God.

The book is not God and neither is a religion!

God is omniscient and would never do half of the crap that men claimed he did in the Bible.

you are presuming that God would act the way you might in such a circumstance... but apparantly he looks at it a lot different than you. He is not tolerant of sin, in fact he cannot comprehend it so why wouldent he destroy a sinful people. Also, there is ample archelolgical evidence to indicate that there was in fact a world wide flood. Lets recap bible law 101: God gives us the plan for a good society,personal behavior, and a good household. His laws are in fact not grevious. He then lets us choose whether or not to follow those laws. ( which we historically have not). in deutoronomy 28, we can read the blessings for obediance as well as the price of non compliance.
as for this business of old testament versus new, the scriptures say that ALL scripture is benificial to us, (not just the parts we like.)Gods Laws cannot and did not change one bit with the arrival of christ. The only difference is that we can now go to christ, and he will interceed in our behalf, as he paid for that right with his life. any questions?

Of course I don't believe in any of that. Like I said, fairy tails....I'm not really pissed at anything. I was just making a point.

I know there was only supposed to be 8, that is my point. There are more food service specialist on a aircraft carrier than that....and they are increadibly efficiant. Tell me it would take only 8 to feed, and maintain all the needs of, say 5000 (only 2,500 species) animals.

The numbers keep getting smaller. The justifications more finite. Tell you what...you tell me what happened. I'll tell you if it sounds remotely reasonable, or not. Although, you should be doing that for yourself.

There have been lots of "flood stories" thoughout time. Example may be the "Epic of Gilgamesh". The account of Noah's adventure is neither the only nor the oldest such legend.

This quick synopsis is all I will argue.
http://members.aol.com/JAlw/flood_myth.html

Otherwise, I have presented pleanty of sensible arguments. All of witch you have rejected. While you have given me outlandish explanations (such as "one kind of animal") and I still tried to work with those..showing how unreasonable even they are.

It's simple. Read and understand the informaion given. Then stop to think what would have to happen for this to be true. You do it with other religions. (say...Muhammed flying to God on a winged horse...given your logic...that was a specise of horse at that time.) Now simply apply the same thought process to your own religion. Does it stand up?

The number of species is getting smaller, because you made up the number 300 million to start with. I posted a link that shows we have under one million described species and estimates that there are around ten million total species in existance. I've stuck with that number, you are the one who went 300 million to 100 million and now down to 10 million.



The story of Noah is the template for all those other stories. Noah didn't record his story, it was revealed to Moses through divine revelation. The flood stories from around the world are word of mouth traditions.



Yes, it's completely outlandish that a dog and wolf could breed together. When someone sells a dog/wolf hybrid, they are just lying.



I have read and understood what you have to say, the simple part is that I reject what you have said. Your calculations have changed with every single post. You made up your numbers (300 million species? You were off by a factor of 30). You are saying "Yeah, I can see Noah working on the Ark for 100 years, but then he spent 4 months loading the Ark? Preposterous!" It has long been accepted by Christians and Jews that the animals loaded themselves under God's control. It has long been accepted that the food was multiplied like God did so many times in the Bible. To start out by automatically rejecting God's ability to make miracles and then try to dissect Noah's flood, of course it isn't going to make sense.

To stick to something like Noah's Ark and reject Jesus' offer to prove his existance to you, that's silly. Just like Noah was required to build the Ark to prove his faith to God, we are required to seek God's face. You must do so for as long as it takes to prove your faith and dedication to God. Why should God reveal Himself to someone who isn't willing to seek Him out? Instead of focusing on simple issues of faith, why not seek out God and ask Him for yourself about Noah's Ark? You will accept His answer more easily than you will ever accept mine.

Like others here, I have a deep problem making a connection between a god who would require, in written form, a commandment outlawing murder.

Yet, not only does this same god specifically "require" certain sinful acts to be punished by death at the hands of humans, but that god is also said to mass murder to the point of genocide no matter of age.

My english assignment this week, was to look at a picture. It was from Afghanistan, a man crouched low to the ground,a child in his arms. The childs face is clear and in focus, what is in front of the child is a muted vies of combat police stopping refegees from entering the city.

The assignment was to explain to that child the justicafication for war. I viewed the assignment as a journalist would, by looking at both sides. It was an extremely difficult assignment.

Here is the irony of that same assignment, I was the only student to even attempt to understand both sides. Two students attempted some off the wall explanation, basing their justification on the AMERICAN point of view - I was having a hay day responding to all these idiots. I don't really care, at this point, as I'm failing the class. (I am protesting this with the board, by the way)

At any rate my point is this - via other assignments I had no problem assigning a Christian label to every student. And with with only one exception, besides me, each of them could justify this war, but only with extreme bias and most of them felt -

God was on their side.

So much for the little children, so much for innocence.

I don't believe in any god, but some days I would like to reconsider, if only to imagine watching all these people "account" for themselves at some point. Not to laugh, mind you, but to look them in the eye with that same pity and self-righteous superiority, and lovingly to bid them off to places unseen with a final "I'll pray for you."

Exatly my point. You have to believe in "gods" and "magic" to believe in any of this. But, If you believe in those two things, what won't you beleive?

I dropped my animal # down to 2,500 (reasonable, right?). Still outlandish. (your right, I don't know where the 300 million came from...i read it in a few pubs and went with it) Regarless - without magic 8people managing (2,500 x 2)animals?

BTW... What happend when they unloaded? How did the carnivors eat on a daily basis without rendering other "Kinds" of animals extinct?

Again, to quote My favorite American Athiest writer, Mark Twain, "Faith is beliving what you know aint true"

Redykeulous,

Excellent point:




Once again to refer to my favorite athiest American writer, Mark Twain. His short story, "War Prayer", addresses just this issue. It is a scathing indictment of war, and particularly of blind patriotic and religious fervor as motivations for war.
....When praying for your troops to win and succeed, you are in the same breath praying for the death and distruction of your enemy. Is it "good" for a god to answer this prayer?

The War Prayer - by Mark Twain.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/warpray.htm

i have read most of the posts on here and now i remember why i dont usually post in the religion section. i cant stand all the hate and persecution. obviously i find God bashing offensive, just as any one of you would be offended if i bashed your beliefs outright. but i can handle this, its the personal attacks that are tough to bear. a lot of the comments in this forum would have been reported if posted anywhere else but here. i will say this, though.....to all the non-believers that seem to get some sort of sick joy out of name calling, it has all brought me closer to God. I feel even closer to my Lord and delight in his Word. It has also made me realize that i cannot compromise and date a non-Christian man. (btw, i am a college graduate. i am not a moron, idiot, naive or non-thinking person. im not perfect, but im not stupid.) so in a weird twisted sort of way, i am saying thank you. i think. now i have to put on my armor to deflect all the negativity headed my way.

I would just hand in a blank sheet of paper.

When the teacher questioned my act, I would simply say, “There is no justification for war”.



As far as the real living child is concerned, I would step toward the place I needed to go, and when the combat police physically stopped me, I would ask THEM to explain THEIR ACTIONS to the child!

Why should I have to explain the behaviors of others?

Why should I have to explain the behavior of a rapist? A child abuser? A murder? A thief?

I don’t do these things, and therefore I have no explanations for why other people do them!

Let’s ask the people who do these things why they do them!

Why ask the innocent people for the answers?

This is like the parable that Jesus told about the woman at the well.

"Let the man who is without sin cast the first stone". he said

No one stood up to cast a stone.

Does this mean that there were no men there who are without sin?

Of course not!!!

Men who are without sin have no desire to throw stones at other people!

As Voileazur often points out; Far too many people seem to be able to quote spiritual verses, yet in doing so they reveal their total ignorance of the spiritual messages behind them!

winnie410,

I don't know for sure, but I don't think I've seen any "name calling" yet. I don't think there has been any "Religious Bashing", either. To say a religion is false, or to critique flaws in a religion (theologans do this all the time) is not religious bashing.

Any religion you don't believe in would be false, correct? Do you believe the Koran, Torah, or any other sacred text beyond the Bible? You don't believe in any of the other gods like, Zeus, Thor, or Dionysus, do you? To say any of this isn't religious bashing.

.....and I simply believe in one less god than you do.

What there has been here, is good debate focused on whatever subject is at hand, not the people. I believe this is one of the better (respectfull) religious debates I have been a part of. I enjoy it.

the major mistake of all those bible detractors (if this is an english word) is that they think that the bible is a text book.
because they are always trying to understand God as 2+2=4, and God is just 2+2=5.
God is the simplest thing in the world, He is like the waves in the ocean constantly there, no matter what.

Interesting quote. … To say god is just 2+2=5? 2+2 doesn't = 5. That calculation does not and cannot exist. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Have u ever heard that for God everything is possible.
Get out of your mind box. sonny boy.

One of the greatest inconsistencies is the need for religion at all. PERIOD.

The purpose of the book was to compile a string of writings referencing pertinent allusions to the coming of Christ and subsequent repurcussions of his influence in the hearts and minds of mankind for future generations to peruse.

Historically, right, wrong or indifferent, these writings have been sequestered in the care and desemination of a select few.

When the word got out to the common man much about its efficacy has been altered.

That it exists and remains controversial is quite enlightening in and of itself.

A careful read displays to the reader that original intent was not to have man, at any time in history inject daysmen between God and each and every individual. This seems to be the biggest problem depicted within itself as a condition of mans' approach to things observant and found beyond his control.

That God is depicting himself in a light of acceeding to mans' wishes and still retain supreme influence and direction over the course of humanity's purpose, suggests that time and history are reserved for every generation to have equal opportunity to perfect social harmony and elicit mutual respect and dignity as implicit upon all intended joy and happiness for man.

That this remains elusive, I suggest that mans evolutionary understanding of creation requires the benefit of previous generations trial and error, and its' exclusivity of God's influences.

That spiritual and behavioral laws have been instituted and honed and simplified, or further complicated matters, is quite a duplicitous depiction of mans intellect and will.

That anything really changes for each generation, or that each subsequent generation actually benefits the next by collective admissions of incapability or aptitude to resolve conflicts among ourselves , remains an elusive capacity of comprehension to fathom.

That suggests to me that God may very well be the one singular submission of mans determinate resources to harmonize skills and talents, and quite possibly our collective "objective, mission, purpose."

again, I can't argue against faith.

But, if with a god anything is possible, then you have to ask yourself:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


- Greek Philosopher - Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]