No, absolutely not! We don't know the heart / mind of the people we judge, God does. We don't know the future, God does. We aren't perfect, God is. Completely different topics. That was part of the purpose of the Law. To teach us to have mercy on one another, because we will never meet the standard that God has established. That's made clear in the Old Testament and becomes more clear as you read about Jesus' ministry.

I think you need to re-read Exodus. In my opinion, the God od Exodus sounds like he's not giving a crap about mankind's free will and is on an ego boosting power trip.

Plague of Blood
Plague of Frogs
Plague of Lice
Plague of Flies
Plague of Disease
Plague of Boils - God hardens Pharoah's heart
Plague of Hail
Plague of Locusts - God hardens Pharoah's heart
Plague of Darkness - God hardens Pharoah's heart
Plague of Death - God hardens Pharoah's heart


New Living Translation Exodus 9: 10-12 "So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on men and animals. The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.


New Living Translation Exodus 10:1-2 "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Return to Pharaoh and make your demands again. I have made him and his officials stubborn so I can display my miraculous signs among them. I’ve also done it so you can tell your children and grandchildren about how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and about the signs I displayed among them—and so you will know that I am the Lord.'"


New Living Translation Exodus 10:18-20 "So Moses left Pharaoh’s court and pleaded with the Lord. The Lord responded by shifting the wind, and the strong west wind blew the locusts into the Red Sea. Not a single locust remained in all the land of Egypt. But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart again, so he refused to let the people go."


New Living Translation Exodus 10:27 "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart once more, and he would not let them go."


New Living Translation Exodus 11:9-10 "Now the Lord had told Moses earlier, 'Pharaoh will not listen to you, but then I will do even more mighty miracles in the land of Egypt.' Moses and Aaron performed these miracles in Pharaoh’s presence, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he wouldn’t let the Israelites leave the country."

It's always interesting to hear someone say that the God who created the universe and all life is on an "ego trip". How could a being capible of creating an infinite universe have an ego beyond what was deserved? How can an infinitely powerful being have more pride in themself than was deserved? It's not possible, so your argument is self refuting.

If one were to read this and expect a linear time line - it appears that there are two creations of man. However - it is perfectly legitimate to view the first chapter as the account of creation, and from chapter 2 on - the account of man. The difference comes in the expectation of the reader. If you expect the account to be linear, it's a contradiction.



And then... He died. Point? Isn't it a matter of interpretation to assume he should have died that day? Since he didn't - is the bible wrong, or your expectation of it? Here's where the result of the proof gets lost in the premise.



But it really depends on how one approaches the exegesis. Another case in point is the geneology of Jesus being different in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. If the expectation is that they both get it right, and they don't - therefore it's a contradiction, then according to the expectation - it is. But if the audience of the particular book is considered - the geneologies would not be the same, as one is that of Mary's, the other is of Joseph's. Since Matthew wrote to the Jews, and Luke to the gentiles - why should the geneologies be the same, when the audience was at extremes. However - you are right. People will see what they want to see given what their expectations are. If you want to prove it as a contradicton, just establish the premise so that it follows logically. However it is usually best to gather all of the information on what it is, and/or isn't - then draw the conclusion.

Somehow I don't buy into that line of BS. How can a God who can create a whole planet of animals (on land, in water, in the air), insects, plantlife, a whole universe of other planets and stars, somehow can only create one single man (Adam) and one single woman (Eve) and the only freakin way they can multiply on the planet is by having their offspring have incestuous relationships with eachother? Either the God of the Bible is one hell of a pervert, the writers of the Bible are perverts, or maybe... just maybe... God created many men and many women in the beginning of creation... and the Bible merely focuses on one story of one couple that God created? Think outside the box people! Stop keeping God in your little boxes! Geeze!

Alright, time for a commercial.


Peace , be still. That's one I like. Where is it? It's in there.

I, laughingly, refer it to as King James English for 'Shut Up'.

But that's me....

Funny, isn't it.

So much to talk about.

Hard to tell, quite impossible actually, who is actually being quiet in their heart and still before God while reading the emotional storms in this thread.

That is a very difficult ponderance.

That quietness may actually appear to be agreement.

To bear all, and not seek ones own.

To abstain from engagement and in absencia define timidity.


Oh, to be lowly and meek and gentle among the ravenous wolves on a moonlit night.


And now, back to our regularly scheduled program with all its fruitful abundance and bouquet!!!

'Xjarhead2004', 'LadyValkyrie37' and 'marlinthomas',

You are doing a great service to your Nation!

Thank you! Thank you! and Thank you!

In other words, I have you stuck between a rock and a hard place and you are now going back to the BS that is perfectly captured in the Rich Mullens song...

Oh when He rolls up his sleeves He ain't just puttin' on the ritz,
Our God is an awesome God
There is thunder in his footsteps and lightning in his fists
Our God is an awesome God

And the Lord wasn't joking when He kicked 'em out of Eden
It wasn't for no reason that He shed his blood
His return is very soon and so you'd better be believin' that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
with wisdom, pow'r and love
Our God is an awesome God

And when the sky was starless in the void of the night
Our God is an awesome God
He spoke into the darkness and created the light
Our God is an awesome God

And judgment and wrath He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God

I never did like Rich Mullins even when I was a fanatical fundamentalist Christian all those years ago

Well all I have to say as one who believed in God for a very long time and will share the instances of my "loss of faith" or "Wake up call." Either way think about this..Everything God has ever made dies.And with all "mankinds" evil among itself.Satan doesn't have to do much.If there is such a being.Also it seems that Gods "works" are great in the beginning and powerful.But as the book goes on he gets less involved.Perhaps as his creations we are a model of our maker.So perhaps He has died and can no longer help. But to put something out here.It shouldn't MATTER our faith,religion,creed,color..The one thing we have to remember is that WE are here.WE must help each OTHER. Not leave it to any God..The Norse have a saying.."The Gods help those who help themselves." Well that's what we should be doing. Help ourselves to be better,help others to be better.To quote my boys U2 "One life,with each other,sisters,brothers...One life but we're not the same we got to carry each other,carry each other..." Now are we going to be arguing about who's right and who's wrong or are we going to actually do something that might help our fellow human beings.

If it's not possible for the creator of the universe to be like the stories in the Bible then the biblical picture of God can't be true!

I've been telling you this all along.

Looks like it's starting to finally sink in.

Lady V. - As it turns out, I did die once and spoke with Jesus. I do believe that I saw him, but when I tell people about it, even Christians, they look at me as if they're trying to remember the number of that shrink their sister has been seeing... See, my experience doesn't count, it's not in the book. And I can't believe in him, according to pastors and ministers and priests, unless I believe everything in the Bible, which I can't, because there are still parts of my cerebrum that are functioning. I had way more faith before I got stupid and read the book, let me put it that way.
And if people find themselves incapable of believing my visit with Jesus, I sure as hell don't press them with the idea! It is what it is, a fabulous moment with Jesus that belongs to me. But if our souls are ultimately judged by how we reacted to the Bible alone, I'm toast. Does anyone think that God wants me to learn to dispense with logic, with personal honesty? The things that apologists come up with, to justify absolutist constructionalism of the bible, to me appear to be frantic men running amok with bailing wire and duct tape, trying to keep their story straight.

Tassel, nice interjection!

Tasselhoff- Right! Isn't it amusing, how many 'sins' are things that we are biologically designed to do?

'marlinthomas' wrote:




'bailing wire and duct tape', what a magistral metaphor!!!

:)

Exactly. A creator who would make it a sin to be human would have to be a moron, or a sadist!



I believe you, and I don't believe that we are judged by how we react to the Bible either.



Of course, not. The human mind is the greatest achievement in all of God's creation. In fact it's what separates men from the animals. So to ignore it would be to reduce one's self to the status of an animal.

To reject reason would be to reject God! God is NOT unreasonable!

People who suggest that we abandon reason to believe in an incomprehensible irrational mythological picture of God are total morons who don’t appreciate God’s creation one iota. They don’t even appreciate their own humanity, much less their creator.

I don't believe you are crazy. You had an experience and I would love to hear more about it if you ever wish to share it with me.

I totally understand how you feel when you say no one believes you. No one believes that I believe in and worships from my heart Father God, Mother Goddess (the Holy Spirit) and their son Jesus the Christ because...

1) I'm a Witch (because the Bible says it's wrong... at least that's what most all Christians interpret the scriptures as saying... if they only knew...)
2) I'm a Pagan (because the Bible says it's wrong... at least that's what most all Christians interpret the scriptures as saying... they fail to recognize the very same virgin birth, death, and resurrection of many other gods throughout the world's history... Christianity is just another copycat religion with Pagan roots.)
3) Most all Christians do not believe in the Feminine Divine (because we all know it's absolute heresy to even think that their might be a Goddess within Judaism and Christianity)
4) and finally because I don't see the Holy Bible as the very word of God, but rather a spiritual book written by the hands of imperfect men, and is not a history book. I take from it spiritual lessons that are good for my spirit and leave what is not good for my spirit. I do the same thing with all other spiritual books that I study, The Lost Books of the Bible, The Pistis Sophia, The Nag Hammadi Library, and The Apocrypha. Most all Christians refuse to accept my choice of accademics.

And not only that, if God knows all things from all times past and present and future, don't you think he would figure out what a dysfunctional bunch of turkeys mankind would ultimately prove to be? Why then would he set the standards of judgement so far above us? Does anyone think that God gets off on seeing failures?
In the Book of Revelations, mention is made of the 144,000 holy holy guys that will surround the Creator at the judgement;they are all abstainers from sex. Why are they off the hook, when they weren't fruitful and didn't multiply? (Rev. 14:4 KJV) Nope, not a cough in a carload, no contradictions here.
And people who say, "You aren't reading it with discernment" really mean, "You aren't accepting the word BEFORE you read it."

Lady Valkyrie, thanks. What happened was, I was in this band that was booking a lot, and holding down a full time job as well, and I just up and passed away briefly. I had been drinking and chemically enhancing myself owing to the brutal hours I was working, and that one night I left my body and was suddenly in a courtyard that was pristine and beautiful. I saw a head and shoulder spirit with a single wing flying overhead, leaving trails of colored smoke; two friends of mine (who were actual live humans I knew) gave me a brief tour of the art and music of heaven, where we obviously were. The art and music that people come up with in heaven are beyond description. The friends told me at some point that there was someone who wanted to talk to me, and guided me to a door. My knees were shaking, I knew what was coming. But I went in the door, and the room was like the size of a law library, and there were bookshelves and at the far end was a black grand piano, atop which was a tiny orange and white object. The really interesting thing was that I have lousy vision, heavy astigmatism, but my dreams are in focus. On this occasion I could not see well, exactly as if I weren't wearing my glasses. So when Jesus raised his hand to me in greeting, I thought for a wild instant that he was flipping me off. And I knew I wasn't worthy to be in his presence, so had he been flipping me off, I would have thought it appropriate. But then I heard his voice, so clear and beautiful... he laughed, and said out loud, "No, I am not flipping you off. Come closer." So I got close to the piano, and there he was, like maybe an inch and a half tall. Such is his love, he knew I was scared to death of him; he made himself tiny, against a backdrop of bigness, if you will, to make me feel less frightened.
And he told me I was a good man, and that he loved me, and he promised me that someday I would understand the reason for every thing that I experienced in my life. He said I could stay there right now. I told him I didn't want my wife waking up next to a dead man. Actually, I was simply afraid to stay,I wasn't ready to quit life yet. But Jesus went along with the fiction, like a close friend would do. I know he knew. He said that he would be waiting for me next time, when I'm ready. He really was way past kind. I think nobody could miss knowing who he was, he radiated an energy that was unmistakable.
I came back to earth in woven colored light, with an orgasmic sensation that saturated me from toenails to the ends of my hair.

Marlin,

I felt the same way when I first read the Bible, cover to cover.

Read it a second time, knowing it's a compilation of men's works, in terms of having penned what they've penned.

But the reason for the second read includes the assumption, at the time, that this allegorical thread of metaphors and nuances had more to be gleaned from, just as watching Casablanca a few times more has revealed little nuggets missed in the first go round.

Since God deserves a chance at a bit of my attention and I'd been one to sense God's hand in creation anyway, I proceeded with an open mind to allow what might, find place within me.

Encountering one particular invitation, I pursued it rather doggedly in prayer. This Holy Ghost indwelling the believer was being posited as the answer of a clear conscience towards God.

That, being the prize of my efforts, was not the goal.

Nor was eternal life, as I recall, though that seems to be part and parcel to it, obvously.

Actually, all I sought was the presence and communication of God .

What I received has changed the course of the life I now live and forever altered my understanding of life, truth, love, faith, wisdom and all that I value and hold in high esteem.

What things I thought I knew and understood became increasingly tastes of a differing palette.

What things I thought foolishness and childishly naive, became ever more comfortable and peaceful to accomodate.

I am not what I was and people who knew me then testify to that.

I am becoming what I am and barely recognize myself.

My humor has drastically calmed. Odd.

But I still squirm and am on edge by most of what is deemed Christian.

I want to scream from the rooftops how the Church does not know Him. But I do no such thing.

I would like to not have to engage the conversation of mutual revery in the excitement of others so touched, but it inevitably occurs.

I would prefer to continue in the quietness of my solitude with this presence, but it likes to come out and play, if you will.

I see more contradictions in the Bible than any of you can imagine, yet with all the years of private study of this book in the original languages, as best as I can decipher, I find that the truths contained within jump out with the experiences of life giving background and substance to the quietly overlooked passages that can never be contaminated by man or careless interpretation. But remain the realm of the Holy Spirit to reveal to whom and howsoever deemed appropriate in the course of polishing and faceting a gem of display much different than the coarse and rough stone it is shaped from.

But all in all the experience is one that others cannot comprehend. I imagine many can say the same thing and be speaking to a different path. Nevertheless, this one has me to the end.

Perhaps my only point is that you are the best judge of how to allow the present course of your life to unfold, with that inspiration you find within.