you are not religious however, you are interjecting your view onto something that has been improperly introduced and explained to all of humanity.

according to the Ancient Greeks writers around 30 to 75 A.D., there was an actual person called Yeshua (Jesus).

The Greeks claim this person did things that no one had seen, been accustomed to, or thought possible by giving us examples He healed the lepers (who had no medicine for their day), who made the blind to see (had no opticians back then for surgery), who raised people who were DEAD back to life (INCLUDING one who was dead in a tomb for 4 days (that is 1 day past the death watch where they watch in case the person was not actually dead but was still buried in the tomb).

Anyways, the Greeks go onto write about Yeshua's life, His Ministry, His purpose. They wrote about His wrongful accused death and even wrote about how even in Greece the sky became black and earthquakes erupted and the things we read in the Bible are specifically mentioned by the ATHEIST GREEKS.

They wrote He claimed He was God, He did these great things, He was killed and 2 Greek writers wrote He RESURRECTED like He had predicted.

Writers afterwards like Lucian continued writing another 200 years laters making the observation ... "STILL TO THIS DAY THE [[[CHRISTIANS]]] FOLLOW THE CRUCIFIED SAGE"...


so what is my point here:

1. Greeks wrote about Yeshua
2. they wrote about His miracles, ministry, purpose even instructing His followers to deny the Greco-Roman deities
3. they wrote He was accused of false accusations
4. they wrote He was crucified
5. they wrote about the sky turning eary pitch black and massive earthquakes took place the moment He died
6. they wrote He Resurrected just like He had predicted
7. they wrote He ascended back to Heaven

The Greeks VERIFY the Jews version of this person called Yeshua like we read in the Bible.


SO:

if this person YESHUA was actually real
if Yeshua actually did as we read in both the Ancient Greek writings and within what the Disciples and Paul wrote
if everything written was but just a FRACTION of the things Yeshua actually did and accomplished
if it ALL is word for word and 100% accurate from both Greek and Jew

that literally means YESHUA was actually GOD in human form!!


NOW:

if that is TRUE concerning Yeshua from both Greeks and Jews, then there is YOUR PROOF about God creating the Universe and everything with the intention of having contact with His own Creation...

if the Greeks and Jews are correct...these are non believing Greeks writing about what they were seeing, experiencing, hearing, witnessing concerning this Yeshua person...makes science, YOU, and several others in this thread alone full of .... and hot air!!

BTW, why do i mention the Greeks, when ALL OF THE PEOPLES of Mesopotamia (Greeks, Romans, Jews, Muslims, several others) have known writings of this person called YESHUA and that He was real?

the Greeks and Romans are mortal enemies.

there is a theory that Yeshua was a fable created by the Romans.
I mention the Greeks because being enemy of the Romans, NO WAY would the Greeks COLLABORATE a Roman lie.

besides, Lucian wrote 200 years later confirming the writers before him about people still following this Yeshua person.

it's a fact in my view that Yeshua is a real character that existed and the Greeks did like they did on everything, DOCUMENTED IT!!

this is why i use the Greeks..

look at our very lives, we live in a society, have government, rules, regulation, medical institutions, higher learning in the Sciences and Mathematics along with Philosophy. even in our home life, we are structured very much like the Greek Culture was.

so if our culture is connected to the Greeks, then it's another reason why i mention them claiming Yeshua was the real deal.

to me, the Greeks have given to our current day world the foundations to survive, including on who Yeshua was!!

Could you name three of these ancient Greek writers from 30 to 75 A.D.
Can you be more specific about the references to Yeshua which was quite a common name in that era.You use a lot of "ifs" to support your position.

Do you believe in God?

I assume that question is directed at me since my post precedes your question.Yes I believe in a God but I am quite certain that God bears little resemblance to your God.

But if Jesus, or Yeshua or whatever his name is, is God, or the son of God, or whoever, why was he Jewish, and then thought, you know what, I'm tired of being Jewish, what I'll do is, start a new Religion, that ought to help sort things out
I mean, I know that sounds a bit sarcastic, but it literally makes no sense
Hey son
yes dad
what we need is a new religion, so, if you wouldn't mind being crucified for everybody else's sins, that'd be great. .
But Dad, I've already been born of an immaculate conception, fed millions of people with half a loaf and a tin of sardines, turned water into wine after walking on it, sawed a woman in half, pulled a rabbit out of a hat, made a fortune palming the Queen, and died and been ressurected once already
Don't argue son, or no pudding for you, and straight to bed after your tea once you've done your homework, I can always take that bike back to the shop, now get crucified and die, pronto, or else
Yes dad

Lol

even if you are joking around, these are valid questions. i will answer the important one...


Yeshua, the actual Aramaic Name, means Yahweh, which is the known factual name of God pertaining to the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yeshua did not start anything new.

1. He told the Jews, who lived by the "Law," the Law was given because no human could measure up to it.

2. He then said, I come to tell you that you are no longer condemned because the Law is officially history.

3. this upset the religious leaders who like many today, were in it because they could control the people and force them to pay for unwanted services.

3A. by Yeshua telling the Jews they were no longer under condemnation to the Law, that made it now responsible for the Jews to do that to the Gentiles. this was another issue for the piased religious leaders. they liked being better than other peoples.

3B. by Yeshua claiming He was here for "PEACE," this also pissed off the religious leaders who wanted the Messiah to kill their enemies, not make them to accept their enemies as part of themselves.


Yeshua therefore did not change anything.
He made the Jews and Gentiles on equal terms.
what changed is the Jews refused until recently.
and that is a red flag.

Even if all you say is fact, it seems to me to be an impossibly large jump to say that these facts are 'proof' that there is some supernatural being that created the entire universe billions of years before the events of 2000 years ago.

I mentioned visiting aliens in a previous post. Suppose some of them arrived here, obviously with very advanced science and medicine, and did things that were impossible for the people of that time to even understand?

I'm not seriously suggesting that, just pointing out that as an explanation for the events of 2000 years ago, it is equally valid, but leaves out any mention of a divine being capable of creating the universe billions of years ago.

Just why these aliens would do that is unknowable, just as trying to explain a nuclear bomb to William Shakespeare would be impossible.

I lead a simple life. If I don't understand something I'm happy to admit I just don't know. I'm not one of those people who has to have an answer for everything, even when it requires the invention of myths and fairy tales.

your testimony provides proof that your belief in God is nothing other than childhood programming


the ancient greeks also wrote about an actual person named  Zeus ...I'm not getting your point here ..unless you are claiming that Zeus actually exist


did you two ever wrestle..play chess or checkers ...or did the competition fall more into the realm of something hallucinatory


I hope you didn't use a ouija board to invite him in like Linda blair did in the Exorcist


that you would brag about having the ability to buy and sell people instead of feeding clothing sheltering or educating them reveals your true nature


yep, and in doing so...you made Jesus the son of Zeus

.
that's false gospel and very misleading ...for example...I could say that in "Pig Latin" Funches means Yahweh and then insert Hebrew scripture that Yahweh is known as the factual name of the Hebrew Elohim thereby making myself Yahweh ...it's being dishonest


actually that's false gospel ...Jesus specifically stated that he did not come to change the laws of Moses ..that's why when it comes to homosexuality or who to bake cakes for, Christians hide behind Old Testament law 

Religion wants you to believe that GOD of everything, everywhere, everywhen is focused on YOU and how you live your life?

Okay...
[yes, I know how to use bold and italic BBcode markup as well]



I know the belief in God or the absense of a belief is a purely personal thing.
My statement was my own personal assessment.
I did not attack or curse anyone.
I even included "Okay" to signify that I accept this view in others.

It seems, while I can accept your beliefs, when I express mine, I get cursed or threatened.
Its not your belief in God or disbelief that I have a problem with.
Its religious persecution and threats towards all who do not conform to the religion's belief structure.
Heathen sinners must be punished!

Its not only strangers, members of my own family hate that I am at peace and in contentment without praising their beliefs.
There's something 'wrong' with me.
I need to be 'prayed for'.
Then they heap curses and condemnation towards me because I don't share their delusions.

Everytime something happens, I get "I told you it would catch up with you" even when my misfortunate event was of my own making from poor judgement or miscalculation on my part.
They are ever-ready to point the finger at me and say "See, I told you" "God is punishing you for your heathen sinful ways".
Yet, these same people are stressed out beyiond belief, their lives are in turmoil and inner peace is only a dream they promise themselves after they die.

So YES, I am full of .... and hot air!! But I'm full of MY ... and hot air.

I think some people are very scared and feel threatened by others who do not share their beliefs.

Suppose they are wrong? I think they are very worried that they *might* be wrong. Maybe that's why curses and threatening language are sometimes used against those of us who are at peace with the world and very happy in our lives?

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. ~ Arthur C. Clarke

In the mind of a people 'programmed to religion', magic has two distinctions.
Evil or Divine.

The 'magic' resulting in bad things is witchcraft or from the Devil.
The 'magic' resulting in beneficial things is righteous or from God.

If the Earth is destroyed to make room for a hyper-spatial express route.
[Always have a towel handy]
For the patrons using the new hyper-spatial express route the act is divine.
For the inhabitants of Earth, the act is evil. Everybody Dies!
Divine and evil are subject to relativity.

With religious delusion, one would think the destruction of Earth (and everybody dying) would be a divine thing.
See, isn't the greatest gift of religion to die and go to heaven (you get 72 virgins and all that gold and all those pearls).
You would think, everyone would be happy to get destroyed with the Earth?
So, why do religious people run from hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions? Are those things not acts of God?

Is there aliens in a hidden orbit aiming their 'magic' ray at the earth causing {sic} 'natural disasters' then watching us lowly humans run in terror as they laugh and drink their purple beer and sit on their gravity couches as 'old lady' alien fixes their supper?

OR...

Is it possible everything that is happening everywhere in the Universe right now is the result of a chain of events (cause and effect) that initiated billions of years ago?
Now THAT, is something I can believe.

I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent
Yet your answer made no sense whatsoever to me
It sounded a bit like legalese
If you want to explain it, then great, but please assume that I'm a reasonably intelligent 5 year old.
I'm sorry if you think that's dumbing it down
But your answer truly makes my head hurt and makes no sense

1. Thallus (52 AD)
Writing about the moment when Yeshua was crucified (35 A.D.) and then sudden darkness covered the noon day sun and multiple earthquakes took place all over Mesopotamia:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Africanus then goes on to point out that an eclipse cannot occur at Passover when the moon is full and therefore diametrically opposite the Sun.[13]




2. Phlegon (56-130 AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 120 AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)








HERE ARE SOME ARTICLES THAT GO INTO GREAT DEPTHS TO HOW "THALLUS AND PHLEGON" WRITINGS CONFIRM YESHUA:

Thallus & Phlegon on Christ | STREET APOLOG!ST.com

https://streetapologist.wordpress.com › 2013/09/29 › thallus-phlegon-on-c...
Sep 29, 2013 - Phlegon of Tralles was a second century historian who was born about 60 AD. Two books are credited to him: Chronicles and Olympiads.
The Ad 33 Date Of The Crucifixion According To Phlegon, A ...

www.freechristianteaching.tv › the-ad-33-date-of-the-crucifixion-accordin...
Phlegon's greatest work was the writing of a history book, called The Olympiades. The Olympiades can be used as a useful means of establishing a time-line.
Thallus: An Analysis - Secular Web

https://infidels.org › library › modern › richard_carrier › thallus
Phlegon reports that in the time of Tiberius Caesar, during the full moon, a full eclipse of the sun happened, from the sixth hour until the ninth. Clearly this is our ...
Phlegon of Tralles Scientifically Established as a Credible ...

https://joebargiel.wordpress.com › 2016/03/22 › phlegon-of-tralles-scientif...
Mar 22, 2016 - Phlegon of Tralles, a Greek historian who lived in the second century, has been referenced by Christian apologists for over a thousand years ...
Phlegon (2) - Biblical Cyclopedia

https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com › phlegon-(2)
Phlegon (2) from the McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia.






i am going to quote you 2 more times with clearer evidence.

THIS POST AND LAST ARE 10 ATHEIST ANCIENT HISTORIANS WHO ONLY WROTE DOWN CURRENT EVENTS OF THEIR DAY. THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT THE TRUE LIFE OF YESHUA/JESUS/THE MAN WHO THESE HISTORIANS CLAIMED TO BE GOD, WAS BRUTALLY BEATEN AND MURDERED, DIED, BURIED, AND 2 HISTORIANS CONFIRM HE DID ARISE FROM THE DEAD!!



***10-historical-facts-about-jesus-from-non-christian-sources***



​1. He was known to be wise and virtuous.

This fact was reported by Jewish Historian Josephus, who was born around AD 37. In his Antiquities of the Jews, he reports:

At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. (1)
​

​2. He had a brother named James.

In recounting the stoning of James, Josephus records:

So he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned. (2)
​

​3. He was known to perform miracles.

Celsus was a 2nd-century Greek philosopher and a fierce opponent of Christianity. In what is known to be the first comprehensive intellectual attack on Christianity, he tried to resolve why Jesus was able to perform miracles. The story is wild—but the main point is that by trying to explain away the miracles of Jesus, he is actually affirming that they happened:

Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.(3)
​
​
​4. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

​This fact comes to us from one of the most trusted historians of the ancient world. Cornelius Tacitus was born in AD56 and served as a respected senator and proconsul of Asia under Emperor Vespasian. He wrote a history of the first century Roman Empire, which many historians consider to be the "pinnacle of Roman historical writing."(4) He notes:

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus. (5)

Josephus confirmed:
​
Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die.(6)

​5. His crucifixion was accompanied by darkness and an earthquake.

This fact was originally recorded by a Samaritan historian named Thallus, who was alive at the same time Jesus was (AD 5-60). He wrote a 3-volume history of the 1st-century Mediterranean world, which unfortunately no longer exists. But before his writings were lost, he was cited by another ancient historian, Julius Africanus, in AD 221. Africanus described Thallus' account of what happened during Jesus' crucifixion:
​
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. (7)
​
​
​6. He had many Jewish and Gentile disciples.

Josephus wrote:

And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon discipleship.(8)
​

​7. He lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar.

Julius Africanus also reported that another ancient historian, Phlegon, confirmed the darkness at the time of Jesus' death and that Jesus was alive "in the time of" Tiberius Caesar:

Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth. (9)
​
​
​8. His disciples believed that He rose from the dead.

In his commentary regarding the disciples' reaction to Jesus' death, Josephus recorded:

[Jesus' disciples] reported that He had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion; and that he was alive.... (10)
​

9. His disciples believed He was God, and they met regularly to worship Him.

Pliny the Younger lived from AD 61-113 and was an influential lawyer and magistrate of ancient Rome. In a letter to Emperor Trajan he wrote:

They [Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. (11)

​Lucian of Samosata was a 2nd-century Greek satirist known for his wit and sarcasm. Even though Christians were the object of his snark, he affirmed certain details about them:

The Christians, you know worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rights, and was crucified on that account....it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. (12)


10. His disciples were willing to suffer and die for their beliefs.

The persecution and suffering of early Christians was recorded by Suetonius, the official secretary of the Roman Emperor Hadrian around AD 121. He documented that they were expelled from Rome in AD 49 by Claudius:

Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he expelled them from Rome. (13)
​
​and: ​
​
Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief. (14)
​
Tacitus also confirmed Nero's persecution of early Christians:
​
Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. (15)

Conclusion:

From non-Christian and even anti-Christian sources, we can be sure that Jesus in fact existed, was crucified, was believed to be resurrected from the dead, and His many followers were willing to suffer and die for that belief.

​The next time someone claims that there is no evidence for Jesus outside the Bible, be sure to share these 10 facts with them! ​​​​​​

no Tom,

not what i am saying to you.
i accept your views and do honor them.
but since i do know some of your views from what you have shared, i just wondered to myself on the topic of a God being concerned about humans, and who could be as far away as infinity and as close to being beside you since everything itself is connected to the entire whole and have an interest in each single persons life.

i presented the ancient historical accounts by factual historians of that day who claim Yeshua said He was God, was concerned for ALL humanity, was eventually done away with, charged with Treason, beaten, murdered, buried, and 2 Ancient Historians confirm He arose from the DEAD and presented Himself like the New Testament claims.

if these Historians are being truthful, accurate, honest (which none of them lived close to one another, some were Greek, Romans, Muslim, one Jew, and a few others from the Mesopotamia region of that day - SO NO COLLABORATION) then they on their account, not the Bible, prove the existence of such God that you think does not exist.



i am not trying to sway you, just informing you that some Ancient Historians might offer information even you could find interesting.

Thank you "iam_resurrected" for providing the information requested.No doubt I will have questions when I have time to digest the content.

in the history of the Hebrew people, came a time and place where their God met Moses in the form of a Bush on fire, but not consuming the Bush kind of fire.

here this entity presented itself as the Hebrew People's God and called Himself Elohim and "I AM."

when Yeshua arrived in the Hebrew People's history, some 3,000 years later, Yeshua/Jesus claims to have been the the Fire of the Bush not being Consumed and then informed Moses of Who He was.

so Yeshua is claiming to be the Old Testament God their ancestors knew.

and all Yeshua did from there was to say, no more following the LAW!!



and ironically, 10 Ancient Historians, all Atheist, wrote of these accounts like the Disciples did. They prove these events and the person claiming to be God factually took place. along with proving He was beaten, murdered, buried, arose from the Dead and presented Himself for several weeks before leaving this planet.

odd, atheist historians, writing about these accounts and claiming them to be factual based upon their word, since people's WORDS back then, meant something!!

like a handshake used to means just 30 years ago!!

now its documentation with notary :(
no one believes no one these days ... humanity has truly taken a serious dump as time passes by!!

I maybe cynical here but I am of the mind that, it it is the quality of doubt that determines the quality of belief.
some people believe many things that may or may not be a true representation of actual events or motivations.
I've no doubt that there have been exceptional characters throughout history.
But to ascribe some kind of kinship with some kind of all powerful, omnipotent, omnicognate deity......
You may as well tell me the gods are angry when there is a storm. Or an earthquake.
It all seemed far fetched to me at 5 years old when a primary teacher told us that it was all true.
No on knows.. Believe if you will, or not. I cant see that it matters. How you conduct yourself is much more important.