This is one of the best points you've made so far. I wonder if cowboy will actually consider this or continue with another circular argument.. Like, he does speak to us, through the rain and his 'presense' and when someone farts, you better believe that was him!

Thanks, Lazarus. Breaking out of the circular logic loop is one of the most difficult obstacles to overcome in these kinds of discussions, as you no doubt know. It's like:
"This is true because the Bible says so."
"Why should we take the Bible's word for it?"
"Because the Bible is the word of God."
How do you know that the Bible is the word of God?"
"Because the Bible says that it is the word of God?"
"Why should we take the Bible's word for it?"

And...repeat.

As for how Cowboy will reply...well, I imagine it won't be long before we find out. ;)

Ya, if you see my arguments earlier in the thread I backed some people into a corner to a point that they started with the "it is because it is!" argument. Like people will get seriously angry about this stuff and I just don't get it. We're in the information age, an age of intellect; an age of objective thinking. But people still got their heads stuck in the dark ages. I'm as much a fan of midevil shows as anyone. Game of thrones and vikings are two of my favorite show ever but I can separate fantasy from reality.

Yeah, though I haven't read the entire thread, I did read a lot of the earliest posts. That's the way it generally goes. When you apply logic to these stories, they fall apart. So, anyone trying to defend them generally ends up either:
1.As you said, tossing any type of definable, objective evidence out the window, and falling back totally on faith.
2. Claiming that God actually IS literally talking to them. (A safe haven for them, since you cannot disprove the notion across the internet, no matter how much you point out how unlikely that notion is.)
3.Spinning like a tornado, in an attempt to make it look like certain words or phrases might kinda', sorta', perhaps if you squint real hard from fifty feet away, mean what they claim they mean, rather than the most obvious and generally accepted meanings. (Like your example about when someone farts, that is somehow God "talking" to us. Or, torturing the term "generation" used in Matthew 24:34, so as to rescue Jesus' "prophecy" there.)
4. Again, as you said, getting angry at you.

Or, any combination of the above.

I think that the anger stems from fear. I believe it was Freud who observed that as long as our species fears death, there will be religion. Regardless of who said it, however, it makes a lot of sense. Hence, the anger when you challenge their religion, as religion provides a comfort zone from death, and offers the hope of seeing dead loved ones again. When you appeal to them with logic, their mind tries to respond to it, but then fear of losing the comfort zone, i.e. facing death, kicks in.

I understand the appeal. I would love to be wrong about all of this. Not only would I love to see some of my departed family members again, but I would also love to have another life to look forward to, since the current one was largely wasted on a stupid cult and a really bad marriage. But, I just don't see enough solid evidence to warrant actually believing that it's going to happen. Like you, I can separate fantasy from reality.

Ironically enough, my favorite TV show is Supernatural.

I watch supernatural and it is entertaining but it's far from being my favorite. It lacks substance. Basically every episode is the same. Guy A is feeling something but doesn't want to admit it to guy B and so there's that underlying tension throughout the episode as they fight demons, ghosts and the paranormal in general with the help of demons, angels or in the older seasons moreso, other hunters. My favorite show is game of thrones, so many different characters and angles and it's filmed in 3 different countries. A total masterpiece of a show. Also nearly no-one is off limits from being slaughtered. I've already had at least 2-3 people I was rooting for in the show die.

I know, that was totally off topic but who cares, lol. The forums are for conversation so if meaningful conversation happens amidst pointless god debates, so be it.

But ya, fear of death is a main driver for religion but you also have to think that back when the first religions were invented, people had an average life span of what, 20? Without the thought that there could be something beyond that life, total anarchy must have ruled the planet. I mean if I could only live to 30 years max, damn rights I'd kill anyone I needed to in order to make those years satisfactory. Unless I had fear of screwing up a much longer life span beyond that one.

So religion is not only to cover fear of death but there as a purpose for life when most people don't really have one beyond get rich, fall in love, buy a house with a white picket fence, blah blah and many people give up on those things early in life if they're not charismatic, an intellectual, born with godlike looks or born into money(few other things perhaps but you get my meaning).

Cannot believe this went on for 45 pages. Easy answer. You will find out the truth when you die. All the best.

Lulz... But for us atheists that answer's a bit of of a dead end since we're magot-food when we die.

The answer you favour in this life dictates whether you seek and generate your love in this world or whether it is diluted here by the perceived insurance you shall receive in an after life.

So to me God is a dilutter of love

We all have different belief systems and world views. Atheists have a belief system and world view also such as a maggot ridden body when you die. That was said in this forum. There is nothing more off putting than someone being nasty, rude, disrespectful and lacking in insight as to bully their way of thinking through 45 pages. There is no debate here just a dominating force to antagonise christian beliefs or other beliefs in God. If you are debating God then where is Satan. Why don't you discuss Satan then to have a fair debate.

Well, I like it, anyway. I really like the way they manage to work a little humor into each episode, to break the tension, without turning it into a farce. I've never seen Game of Thrones, so I can't comment on it, but I'm glad that you like it.

Well, hey, it's your thread, so by golly you can talk about whatever you want, right?

Good point about the lifespans back in ancient times. Fear of death was a more pressing concern back then!

You're right about religion providing a purpose in life for many, too. That's a good point. In fact, the cult I was raised in (Jehovah's Witnesses) often touted the fact that serving God gave our life purpose. And, in a similar vein, religion also provides a social network for people who might not otherwise have one. (Like me.)

Of course, that can be a two-edged sword in some cases. In the case of the JWs, if a member decides that he/she no longer believes in the Witness dogma, he/she is labelled an "apostate," and is shunned. So, any member who is having doubts has to consider the possibility that if he/she speaks up about them, it could cause him/her to suddenly lose all of his/her "friends." (And family.)

Once again, the dark side of religion rears its ugly head.

I mean no disrespect, Lovely Lady, but...you really cannot believe that a discussion about whether or not God is a loving god would go on for 45 pages?! As deep as that subject is, and as many varying opinions as there are on it, this thread could go on for decades if we all chose to keep it going.

Furthermore, it's not as cut and dry as just waiting until we die to find out whether or not God is a loving god. After all, we have to live however many years we still have until we die, and unless we just want to meander through life we have to decide how we are going to live it. I can tell you from experience that living your life allowing a stupid cult to influence your life-decisions can cause you to make some really bad decisions!

So, the discussion about the nature of God is a valuable one, for it helps us to make an informed decision about whether or not God is even worthy of devoting any portion of our all-to-brief lives to. Assuming he exists at all.

Heh, heh...
Maggot food!
I'll keep an entire colony fed for years...
;)

Good point, Sir. By demanding love, and promising compensation for it, God diminishes it. For, true love has to be given, not taken.

Or, to put it another way: It is far better to be a good and loving person for the sake of being that way, rather than trying to be that way in order to receive a reward and/or avoid punishment from Skydaddy.

I haven't read every post here, so I may have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone being bullied, or antagonized. We're just having a discussion. As for Satan, speaking for myself, I have mentioned him a few times. Personally, I think that Satan is a mythical character. As I have said before, "Satan" isn't even a name, anyway. The Hebrew word in question ("saw-tawn'") means "adversary," and it was applied to more than one entity in the OT. (Including the angel in the Balaam talking-donkey story.) The character of "Satan" was invented to be Yahweh's enemy (And scapegoat.) after the Jews were exposed to Persian dualism, following the Babylonian exile. In this way, Yahweh could be credited for all the good things, while Satan would take the blame for all the bad stuff.

Loving God is just that reason. It's not about making browny points to gain anything, it's not about "assuring" your afterlife, it's not about avoiding punishment or in the hopes to receive a reward. It is loving God for he is God, he is our creator, our giver, our provider. It's for the plain sake of loving God, again not to gain anything or better assure anything for one's self.

To me you appear to be under the delusion that there would be no love without God.
I love existence with out any need to fabricate or have fabricated for me a god of any kind. In fact I believe it opens up the possibility of more love in this world.

Ya and if you have a father that promises to beat you and burn you for all of eternity if you don't love him then I'm sure you love him purely because he created you? >,>


Ya, a couple scenes in supernatural gave me a good laugh.. Pudding!!

Good point about JW's, kinda reminds me of Scientologists. The thing that annoys me(personally) about Scientology is that before I read into it I had thought that it was a religion based on science; which would actually be a sensible thing in this day and age but it turned out to be a bunch of cultist nutbags that are so bad even people of the old religions don't like/respect them. But then I guess they wouldn't if it was a religion based on science either but pretty much no one likes them unless they are one of them.

There is no burning for eternity. You either receive eternal life through Jesus Christ, or eternal death because of sin.


Revelation 20
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And there is no indication that it will be "torment" for those that were not found in the book of life. Just specifically references "second death"

And this is also fairly clear as the previous verse in that chapter states the following

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But again does not say man/woman will be tormented day and night, nor "insinuates" it.

Jehovahs are not "Christian"

JW’s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His Earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.

In the "Christian" views, Jesus is God. Repeated through the scriptures multiple time, the most said/seen is "The Lord Thy God". And Jesus couldn't very be Michael the archangel.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

then we have in the same book

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

That would mean by the views of JW's that Daniel saw Michael "Jesus" and told "Jesus" about it in third person eg., "O my Lord.."

And many other differences between the two beliefs. Jehovahs if I'm not mistaken even have their own "bible", and do not site from or reference the Christian bible.

We are "Christ"ians because we believe Jesus too be the "Christ" prophesied. Jehovahs don't, they believe him just too be a wise man at the least.

Well, Cowboy, I agree with you that, in principle, that's how it should be. And, I also know full well that Romans 6:23 says that eternal life is a "gift" from God, not something that's earned:

Romans 6:23

"23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

But, you have to admit that there are many passages in the NT (I won't quote or refer to all of the many examples in the OT, since you'll just tell me that those don't count. Even though supposedly the same god uttered them.) that hammer home the point that, if we don't toe God's line, we will be stomped on, but if we do toe his line, we will get a great big cookie.
And, most churches really emphasize those points, too, as they have such a challenge on their hands keeping all their members in line and their pants up.