I do think about what I say, I Just tire of debating single sentences out of a book that is 66 books long


but, whatever floats peoples boats,, why dont we just believe what we choose to believe and leave it at that

I try to follow the example of Christ, but I know I have HUMAN pride, and ego, and insecurity, and other HUMAN Traits that Jesus did not suffer from,,,,I have a nture of SIN That he did not,, and so I slip and I fall and its common sense to me just from observing peoples attituteds, words, behaviors,, that EVERYONE does

that is what I mean by everyone being a sinner,


admitting imperfection and asking (As well as giving) forgiveness are attributes of a Christlike (christian)life,,,,,

saying just the right things to 'prove' God to unbelievers or skeptics is not my concern,, I just engage for the conversation, until it becomes circular or rifled with tangents,,,

as this one seems to be doing,,,

So you believe that imperfection is "sin."

I see.

"why dont we just believe what we choose to believe and leave it at that"


Fine Msharmony. If you do not want to discuss anything of this nature, then I will not engage you further. I thought you wanted to have a discussion.

What symbolism though? Jesus was crucified on a cross. There is external non-religious affiliated sources you can find the records of that truly happening. If you give credit to whom he truly was eg., the only begotten son of God, that is purely your choice and irrelevant in this particular discussion. But that's not just some symbolic story, so I still don't understand your statement of "symbolism". And no I'm not religious, never claimed to be, don't know what you're getting at there.

There are no external sources or records of what you claim. None.

It is all a story, but there is no evidence outside of the man written Bible.

That simply means that all humans are going to grow old and die. Everyone already knows that. --and Jesus dying on the cross did not change that.




If Jesus is "not human" then perhaps he is an Alien? If he is a god, then his death on the cross means nothing. --It is just a show or a grand performance. ... if it even happened at all.

Cowboy said: "Human sacrifices were and are NEVER condoned by God."

I never said that sacrifices were condoned by God. But Christians claim that God sent his son to come here and die on the cross, (as a human) therefore, Christians do claim that human sacrifices are indeed condoned by God!

Jesus was not human? Is that what you really believe?













There are a few sources that inform us of the crucifixion, outside of the scriptures. It's not symbolic lol. It truly happened, again found even outside of the scriptures.



He wasn't a sacrifice as a burnt offering, or given as a sacrifice. He sacrificed his physical well being, was put through the physical and emotional pain. That is where the sacrifice lays, not that he was a sacrifice. He did the ultimate sacrifice no mule, donkey, or anything could ever do. He fulfilled the old covenant. He completed/finalized the old covenant which required the sacrifices. The covenant did not require such things for forgiveness. Thus why he is "seen" as the ultimate sacrifice. But it lays in the completion of one covenant and being given a'new which again did not require sacrifice of beasts for forgiveness.



You're speaking of the physical death. Yes we will grow old and physically die. But that isn't what is being referred to, was speaking of spiritual death eg., the only reward for sin is death.



What is a human? I never once have read anything about God making a "human". Human is a secular term. God made man and woman, those are genders, doesn't specifically say "human".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus

COWBOY:

FOR YOUR INFORMATION: Men and women are HUMAN.
And Jesus, if he actually existed, WAS HUMAN.

COWBOY said: "There are a few sources that inform us of the crucifixion, outside of the scriptures. It's not symbolic lol. It truly happened, again found even outside of the scriptures."

You keep claiming this but it is simply NOT TRUE.

(The only one I have ever heard of is something written by "Josephus" who is purported to have been an historian, but there is no evidence that he ever existed and some think that was a pen name. He did not exist.)

Other than that, there is nothing.

So present your evidence.

Again "human" is a secular description word of us. The scriptures NEVER said "human", said man/woman. Some of the newer translation may or may not say "human", but that is because of the secular world we live in.

And what are you talking about? I just posted a wikipedia on it that gives a few sources outside of itself and religious affiliated groups/organizations.

I have spent a lot of time researching the validity of those alleged writings and they are not conclusive nor are they proof. They are flimsy at best.

I don't believe there is much evidence that Josephus was anything other than a pen name of some roman politician.

Its just not credible enough.

If the event were such an historical important event, there would have been more evidence outside of scripture and especially more historical evidence.

Some ancient texts had information contrary to the Bible's and guess what? They were rejected because they did not fit the bill for forming the religion that Rome wanted to create.

Early in the second century another reference to the crucifixion of Jesus was made by Tacitus, generally considered one of the greatest Roman historians.[71][72] Writing in The Annals (c. 116 AD), Tacitus described the persecution of Christians by Nero and stated (Annals 15.44) that Pilate ordered the execution of Jesus:[66][73]

Scholars generally consider the Tacitus reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate to be genuine, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[71][74][75][76][77][78] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[21]
Another possible reference to the crucifixion ("hanging" cf. Luk 23:39; Gal 3:13) is found in the Babylonian Talmud:

Hey, and even if "the scriptures" never used the word "human" we do use it now. And we are human and so was Jesus. Unless you are saying he was alien or some other kind of non-human being.

last post on the references

Although there is no consensus regarding the exact date of the crucifixion of Jesus, it is generally agreed by biblical scholars that it was on a Friday on or near Passover (Nisan 15), during the governorship of Pontius Pilate (who ruled AD 26–36). Since an observational calendar was used during the time of Jesus, including an ascertainment of the new moon and ripening barley harvest, the exact day or even month for Passover in a given year is subject to speculation.[86][87] Various approaches have been used to estimate the year of the crucifixion, including the Canonical Gospels, the chronology of the life of Apostle Paul, as well as different astronomical models—see Chronology of Jesus for a detailed discussion. Scholars have provided estimates for the year of crucifixion in the range AD 30–36.[88][89][90] A frequently suggested date is Friday, April 3, AD 33

Alien is a being to a foreign place, the Earth is not foreign to Jesus, for he is the creator of it.

Tacitus: As far as your wikipedia info on him..... sorry. I don't agree with your authorities.

No, he wasn't.

ok

"I just engage for the conversation, until it becomes circular"


Any conversation involving religion always ends up becoming circular from the get go, because at least 95% of religious arguments are like the one in the quote above. "cmon guys, you gotta believe in god, because he exists, he just does, I'm super cerial guys!!!" I mean sure it always starts with quotes from the bible and such but after all the ******** is broken through/disproved it generally boils down to the "it is because it is" argument which is just sad, empty and pitiful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h05YfP_8UsU (watch video if you don't get "super cerial" reference).

Cowboy, you claim not to be religious but the way you talk makes you sound very much like a Christian.

"to Jesus, for he is the creator of [earth]."

Dems the words of a Christian, anyone that just believes in god and not as a part of religion would claim that god(not jesus) created the earth.

As for your argument on "What symbolism?" Hello, Jesus on the cross is the most well known religious symbol in the history of man, it's at any Christian church you go to, it's hung around the necks of religious people everywhere; if religion was a cerial it'd be posted on the front of every box along with the words "Jesus brand corn flakes!". Idk how you miss that?

I am a child of God, call that what you wish. Christian, religious, ect. It's only "religious" to those whom do not believe, they place it in the "religion" category cause they then have a choice to believe it or not.

You have your own personal religious beliefs. You own personal religion actually.