I am not going to speculate. Its my opinion that speculating without all the facts leads to these emotional displays which we see in the media, which sadly prevent a fair trial and subvert the system in favor of emotional justice.

His story which so far has been corroborated is that he did not confront the teen, he was attacked, which matches the physical evidence, and that he cried for help for nearly a minute and continued to be beaten, then shot after a struggle for the gun ensued.

I am sorry msharmony, I can tell how much you want this to be in favor of the teen, but unless evidence surfaces that contradicts these events then prosecution will have a hard time convicting. (Also its election year for officials, so you can bet this wont be settled until October at the very least)

No amount of him walking the neighborhood was illegal, no amount of him asking the teen a question is illegal. Nothing he did so far (as the evidence can show), was illegal, the shooting itself was legal based on the current set of evidence. If more evidence is available that we do not have, it would seem to favor Zimmerman, or else Id imagine he would be arrested.

That he had wounds to his nose, and the back of his head and grass stains on his back indicate he was in a defensive position on his back on the ground being beaten on. You do not attack someone from your back on the ground.

If the 911 tapes can be used to determine if the screaming was not in fact his (Zimmermans) that might be a way to call into question the events as depicted by Zimmerman.

Lets hope some audio wizardry can parse the vocal range and distinguish between the two.

I do not know the contents of the call to the girl friend, does anyone know if that was recorded?

(Also everyone keeps talking about the weight difference, the teen was 6'3 140 lbs of pure muscle, he was an athlete and football players, fully capable with good leverage with that height. Do we know Zimmermans physical characteristics? I heard somewhere he was 220, but looks fat, short, and out of shape in his pics. To my knowledge the teen had no marks on his body indicating taking blows in a fight, this may indicate that Zimmerman did not fight back at all.)

how was his story about not confronting the teen 'corroborated'

because people saw them fighting and at some point he was losing?

that doesnt prove he didnt initiate the threat or confront the teen,,,

still sucks, that a grown up with a gun can possibly scare a teenager to the point of defending himself to get away and then claim self defense if he happens to shoot that teen dead after losing the confrontation, unless someone has 'recorded' the actual incident as it happened

so kids, if an adult approaches you with a gun, let them beat you up ,

there would be no information regarding the childs wounds as he is DEAD, and considering how little it took for them to try to wrap the case up initially, I doubt anyone took time to try ot check or that enough time had passed for them to know

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

... SORRY, but if the boy is aware the man has a GUN, and is trying to get the upper hand to keep him from getting to it,,,

its still self defense,,,,

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/blogs/beth-kassab/os-trayvon-martin-sg-20120315,0,3117109.special



if anyone can look at those two pictures and tell me the man with the gun had a reasonable expectation that the kid without one could kill him in a physical fight,,,,

I dont know what else to say,,,

here is the website with the letter..

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86330859/Zimmerman-Martin-Shooting

Wednesday, March 21, 2012
The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman Shooting and "Stand Your Ground" law.
The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman Shooting and the Stand Your Ground Law
by jon gutmacher

The death of Trayvon Martin in a shooting by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in Sanford, Florida has reached circus proportions – largely because of a lack of information from the police, and a plethora of mis-information about the "Stand Your Ground" law. Let me try to set some things straight from a legal and practical standpoint.

First – while a grand jury will hear the case in April – there is no law that prevented the Sanford Police Department from releasing information on why no arrest was made. True – the Public Records Law would “protect” the police department from releasing that information – but it never “forbade” the release of that information – especially if the release would be in the best interest of the public. It’s been obvious that the staunch refusal to do that – has blown this case totally out of proportion, and caused it to go “viral” on a national level. In my opinion – this continued "behind closed doors" attitude was and continues to be a serious mistake on the part of law enforcement, and information needs to be released as to why an arrest was not initially made.

Next – let's talk about the “Stand your Ground Law”.

Contrary to all the anti-gun hype – this law does not protect George Zimmerman if he was the aggressor. In fact – if he misused his firearm – the law is quite clear that he is looking at a MINIMUM mandatory prison sentence of 25 years – and as much as LIFE imprisonment! That’s mandatory, folks – and every day of the 25 years must be served if convicted! No early release. No parole. Sound like the “easy gun laws” everyone is complaining about on TV? Twenty five years to life??? No way!

The facts are that the "Stand Your Ground" law simply says that if you have an objectively reasonable belief that you are in imminent danger (ie: “immediate”) of death or a substantially serious injury (ie: “great bodily harm”) , or there is a reasonably objective belief that a forcible felony is taking place, AND it appears reasonable to use deadly force in the situation – then deadly force may be used, and you need not retreat before using deadly force. But . . . if you make an unreasonable decision or unreasonable mistake in judgment – then -- go directly to jail – for a long, long time!

The only thing the “Stand Your Ground Law” really changed from earlier law was to correct a serious problem in the self defense law – because forcing someone to retreat in the myriad of impossible situations that arose in self defense – and especially in trying to stop a forcible felony – made it very difficult to legally defend yourself no matter how justified the lethal force situation was. Quite frankly, Florida law is a lot tougher on penalties than most other states -- and is very similar to the self defense laws of other states -- except that the "retreat rule" has been eliminated. (which -- is also the trend, and has been passed in many other states besides Florida).

So. . . was George Zimmerman acting lawfully? Damn if I know – quite frankly – doesn’t look good for George at this point. But, without the vital information that you would expect to have been released weeks ago – we’re all standing out here guessing – and worst of all – the anti-gunners, and those who can gain something by being in the media spotlight – are having a field day with misinformation about our laws – and your rights.

Spread the word! This is not a copyrighted article -- and you have full permission to use it anyway you like.

http://orlandocriminallawyer.blogspot.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman.html

The only lucid article I have read yet.



It is all about showing evidence that Zimmerman started the confrontation, and was the aggressor. Anything else is immaterial at this point. We do not have ANY information (to my knowledge) about the events that took place prior to the struggle.


Everything else is agenda fodder.

Those are old pics of the teen. Also everyone keeps saying he was 140 ilbs, that is not true. He was 6 foot 3 inches 160 pounds in the police report (that is a grown man, @ 20 I was 6'4 175 lbs). The coroners report has not been released and that will be more accurate.

msharmony, how do you get a man who weighs 200+ lbs on the ground on his back, get into a mounted position on top of him? I was in mixed martial arts, and you do it with a take down. Football players call it a tackle. Terminology doesn't matter, its required.

How does bleeding injuries to the back of the head occur?

How does a bloody nose occur?

Martin was violently attacking Zimmerman, a witness who identified them by what they where wearing explained how the person in red on the bottom was crying for help, how the person on top in the grey sweat shirt was beating him without pause.

Anyone who is trying to paint Martin as a saint needs to deal with the fact that he was unrelenting in his attack on Zimmerman, he was at least 160 lbs of athlete viciously attacking the man, may have been hitting in the back of the head, or pounding his head into the ground, no other ways to get that kind of wound really and did not stop when onlookers, and Zimmerman pleaded with him to stop. ALL allegedly before the gun came into play.

This paints a story of a teen who wanted to hurt someone for following him and questioning him.

The media, and the bandwagon "think of the children" types are just trying to make Zimmerman out to be some rogue wanna be cop becuase it makes there crusade seem all the more plausible, and it helps ratings. The facts however do not support that account of events. The girlfriend on the phone actually backs up Zimmerman's account that he lost track of Martin. Sadly it does not help us understand how they came back together, so all we have is zimmermans side (unless additional witness testimony is available and not released)

I hope that all of the available facts will be release some time soon. I doubt that will happen, chances are it will not be until October, or December.

Also it does matter what he was suspended for, everyone wants to make use of Zimmermans past to show he was violent, we need to know if martin was violent, was he suspended for fighting? Makes you wonder.

====

Edit, you mention martins cell phone. I wonder why he did not call the police? Zimmerman called the police. If zimmerman wanted to hurt someone he would not have called the police. From this we can glean that zimmermans motivations where not to harm anyone, but to have the police question the suspicious person. We do not know Martins motivations, everyone is assuming they where good, but we know nothing about martin expect the biased accounts of the distraught family.

For us in the public, we need to make sure not to jump to conclusions based on bad information. 140 lbs child is bad info, he was a 160+ lbs 6 foot 3 inch young man. The skittles, the tea and the phone are not facts unless he used the tea to strike zimmerman and that was what caused the wounds to the back of his head, otherwise its inconsequential. The phone is important, why did he not call for help, unless he was not frightened for his life, and maybe his motive was to ambush zimmerman.

If someone is following me all I have to do is hide, and then wait. When I see him move past where he saw me, then I spring my ambush.

This is not speculation, its actually Zimmermans account of events which the actually statement has not been released for yet so it may differ slightly but this is the theme.

http://orlandocriminallawyer.blogspot.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman.html

The only lucid article I have read yet.



It is all about showing evidence that Zimmerman started the confrontation, and was the aggressor. Anything else is immaterial at this point. We do not have ANY information (to my knowledge) about the events that took place prior to the struggle.


Everything else is agenda fodder.

that is a good point

in the STAND YOUR GROUND state,, who would be considered the 'aggressor'

the man reasonably perceived as a threat when he leaves the safety of his car to FOLLOW a young man in the dark and in the rain

or the boy reasonably perceived as a threat when he fights for his life against the inital threat that HE perceived?

What I have learned about this case so far:
Z = Zimmerman M= Martin

Just the facts as we know it.

1) Z called the police to report a suspicious person. Was told it was not needed to follow him, and sad "ok" in response.
2) M saw that someone was following him and was on the phone with his girlfriend who has coroborated that M ran, and lost site of Z.
3) Z while on the phone with Non-Emergency police line said he lost the kid.
4) At some point later 911 calls roll in, and a direct witness comes outside to see M on top of Z and Z crying for someone to help him. This is recorded on another persons 911 call.
5) Z claims M confronted him and attacked him, got him on his back and would not relent the attack after Z, and a neighbor yelled for him to stop.
6) The eye witness did not see the beginning of the fight and went inside before the end of the confrontation and never saw the gun in play, within 30 seconds of the witness going inside the shot is heard.
7) Z was bleeding from the back of his head, from his nose, and had grass stains on his back. (no info on any possible injuries for M, coroners report would provide this once it is available)
8) All of the facts have not been made public, but all of the original witness statements corroborate Z's statement. (except for the people like Cruncher who changed there story days later)

This is all we the public know at this time, and it is why probable cause for Z's arrest has not been established. The biggest problem with trying to judge this case is the huge gap in knowledge between #3, and #5. Which is where all of the real legal questions live. Police may have more information than this, but so far no arrest, which makes me believe if there is additional info, it is not anything which contradicts Z's account.

http://orlandocriminallawyer.blogspot.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman.html

The only lucid article I have read yet.



It is all about showing evidence that Zimmerman started the confrontation, and was the aggressor. Anything else is immaterial at this point. We do not have ANY information (to my knowledge) about the events that took place prior to the struggle.


Everything else is agenda fodder.

his STATE OF MIND, is not immaterial

that he said the 'aholes' always 'get away' and that he was at some point following the boy,,,shows a predator state of mind,,,