Community > Politics, Current News & Events

Topic: Misdirected Vigilantaism,, a shame
msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 02:48 PM
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html video here also Sadly this offers no new information about the events between the beginning of the confrontation and the shooting. One fact here that has not been addressed in any of the reports I have seen. Martin had a cell phone, he knew some guy was following him, why did he not call the police? Zimmerman claims he did not confront Martin, that Martin confronted him, and then attacked him. << this is the key claim that needs to be refuted with evidence for there to be a case. If that is true, the teen became angry at being followed and instead of calling the police decided to take the situation into his own hands and confronted Zimmerman. If no evidence exists to determine if this occurred or not, then authorities have done the right thing in not bringing a case to trial that is doomed to fail. They should continue to gather evidence unless they have a definitive case. he claims he did not confront Martin, but, on the call he says 'these ******** always get away' on the phone when asked if he is following Martin, he response 'yes' and you can hear the background of the phone the sound of him moving thats pretty clear evidence that HE initated a threat, not the boy so, if you are a teenager walking in a new neighborhood in the rain at night and some big man gets out his car and starts following you you can run,, which apparently (according to zimmerman himself on the call to dispatch) he did,,,or you can fight and if you end up being the one who dies, I Guess the perp can claim it was self defense because of your choice to fight but its still bs,, and the person this boy was on the phone with will most likely be the key to refuting his claim that he got out his car to look at a sign and was attacked by Martin,,,,

boredinaz06 Joined Sun 10/15/06 Posts: 22764	Tue 03/20/12 02:50 PM
The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. no they wouldnt, they would look at police whose job it is to respond when neighborhood watch calls them if he had not been so aching to catch someone , he would not have imagined some possible crime scenario and approached a kid with a gun and the risk of taking that kids life,,,, Maybe 50 years ago, but today police are stretched too thin and show up after the fact 99.999% of the time so it is up to us to protect ourselves.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 02:50 PM
The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. Did you listen to the 911 call? Zimmerman never said he was going to follow the guy. Zimmerman's father released a statement saying his son in fact did not follow Martin. This does not say what did happen, only what did not happen. If anything that begs answers to other questions. I saw this case pretty much right after it happened, it was posted to one of my news feeds. I knew right from the get go that many details were missing. I did listen to the recording,, wow,,,,its amazing that this is so hard for some to see or aknowledge the dispatcher asked him DIRECTLY if he was following the boy and he said YEP

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 02:51 PM
The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. no they wouldnt, they would look at police whose job it is to respond when neighborhood watch calls them if he had not been so aching to catch someone , he would not have imagined some possible crime scenario and approached a kid with a gun and the risk of taking that kids life,,,, Maybe 50 years ago, but today police are stretched too thin and show up after the fact 99.999% of the time so it is up to us to protect ourselves. thats exactly the kind of thinking that will get more innocent people killed ,, because they 'could' be on their way to commit a crime,,,,,

boredinaz06 Joined Sun 10/15/06 Posts: 22764	Tue 03/20/12 02:51 PM Edited by boredinaz06 on Tue 03/20/12 02:53 PM
Before weighing the story... Whos gun was it? (my watch carries only spray and speak techology). Who cried 'help'? the reports say the teen had just a cell phone, skittles and a pop, after returning from the store to try to finish watching the ball game my guess is , it was the 'watchmans' gun its not clear who cried help, but the watchman had 100 pounds on the teen and followed him,,,and (so far it seems) had a gun,,,, my guess would be that poor kid was crying out after some grown man followed and assaulted or tried to restrain him,,, the police also said not to bother the kid too...that would be a matter for the police, not a "watchman" The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. they are not police, they are WATCHPEOPLE... they do not have any authority to act out as the police would. whether the kid was up to something or not, it would be a police matter, not a killing someone matter. all he had to do, which is his job anyway, is call the police and let them handle it. he was way out of bounds on this, and it should be charged as a hate crime. I don't know about FL law but here you absolutely have the right to defend yourself, your property or aid in the defense of a 3rd party. Again police only arrive after the fact 99.999% of the time.

boredinaz06 Joined Sun 10/15/06 Posts: 22764	Tue 03/20/12 02:52 PM
The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. no they wouldnt, they would look at police whose job it is to respond when neighborhood watch calls them if he had not been so aching to catch someone , he would not have imagined some possible crime scenario and approached a kid with a gun and the risk of taking that kids life,,,, Maybe 50 years ago, but today police are stretched too thin and show up after the fact 99.999% of the time so it is up to us to protect ourselves. thats exactly the kind of thinking that will get more innocent people killed ,, because they 'could' be on their way to commit a crime,,,,, That's your opinion!

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Tue 03/20/12 02:53 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 03/20/12 02:56 PM
the gun is not irrelevant if it is the cause of the death My hands are deadly weapons. If I attack you with kicking, punching, and choking moves, I am attacking you with deadly force. That makes it irrelevant when trying to determine if a manslaughter charge is to be brought against Zimmerman. What matters is what occurred prior to him pulling the trigger. the likeliness of this grown man, 100 pounds heavier than the teen and carrying a gun, telling a dispatcher that he is watching this boy, and following this boy, and then having this boy attack HIM , is low How do you know what is likely? What are you basing this on? and even then, it wouldnt justify a shooting, if you are the person pursuing someone when they decide to defend THEMSELF Witnesses have identified Zimmerman as the man on his back during the struggle crying for help. thats why stand your ground is too vague,, which male had more of a right to do so in this case This has nothing to do with it. If you want people to have to run away to be able to claim self defense is a different topic entirely. the teen walking from the store and not bothering the man You are inferring this from the media articles, not from the facts. or the man, departing from his car in the rain with a gun to follow the teen ? More assumptions about what occurred. Lots of things could have occurred where this is not factual. What we can prove is what is important, not what we can imagine. why shouldnt the teen have been scared too, or felt threatened,, if he felt threatened why wouldnt he be justified in defending himself too (without a weapon, the old fashioned way)? Again its about what we can prove. Zimmerman called the police, Martin did not. no,, the likelihood here is that an overvigilant man with a gun saw someone his mind said was 'suspicious' and wanted to make sure he didnt 'get away' This is the story as the media has presented it, however the facts are not complete, and some of the facts contradict this account.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 02:54 PM Edited by msharmony on Tue 03/20/12 02:57 PM
The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. no they wouldnt, they would look at police whose job it is to respond when neighborhood watch calls them if he had not been so aching to catch someone , he would not have imagined some possible crime scenario and approached a kid with a gun and the risk of taking that kids life,,,, Maybe 50 years ago, but today police are stretched too thin and show up after the fact 99.999% of the time so it is up to us to protect ourselves. thats exactly the kind of thinking that will get more innocent people killed ,, because they 'could' be on their way to commit a crime,,,,, That's your opinion! http://z6mag.com/featured/trayvon-martin-911-call-from-neighbors-and-zimmerman-audio-166633.html ;have them call me and I will let them know where Im at' implies he IS FOLLOWING , not remaining in one spot to wait for police yeah,, 'suspicious' people beware,, citizens are armed to protect themself from you (After they follow you,,,,) shame

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 02:56 PM
the gun is not irrelevant if it is the cause of the death My hands are deadly weapons. If I attack you with kicking, punching, and choking moves, I am attacking you with deadly force. That makes it irrelevant when trying to determine if a manslaughter charge is to be brought against Zimmerman. What matters is what occurred prior to him pulling the trigger. the likeliness of this grown man, 100 pounds heavier than the teen and carrying a gun, telling a dispatcher that he is watching this boy, and following this boy, and then having this boy attack HIM , is low How do you know what is likely? What are you basing this on? and even then, it wouldnt justify a shooting, if you are the person pursuing someone when they decide to defend THEMSELF Witnesses have identified Zimmerman as the man on his back during the struggle crying for help. thats why stand your ground is too vague,, which male had more of a right to do so in this case This has nothing to do with it. the teen walking from the store and not bothering the man You are inferring this from the media articles, not from the facts. or the man, departing from his car in the rain with a gun to follow the teen ? More assumptions about what occurred. Lots of things could have occurred where this is not factual. What we can prove is what is important, not what we can imagine. why shouldnt the teen have been scared too, or felt threatened,, if he felt threatened why wouldnt he be justified in defending himself too (without a weapon, the old fashioned way)? Again its about what we can prove. Zimmerman called the police, Martin did not. no,, the likelihood here is that an overvigilant man with a gun saw someone his mind said was 'suspicious' and wanted to make sure he didnt 'get away' This is the story as the media has presented it, however the facts are not complete, and some of the facts contradict this account. yeah, this kid had the coward on his back after he followed and confronted him with a weapon, and because the kid ends up the one dead,, this grown man can claim he was just defending himself

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Tue 03/20/12 02:57 PM Edited by mightymoe on Tue 03/20/12 02:57 PM
Before weighing the story... Whos gun was it? (my watch carries only spray and speak techology). Who cried 'help'? the reports say the teen had just a cell phone, skittles and a pop, after returning from the store to try to finish watching the ball game my guess is , it was the 'watchmans' gun its not clear who cried help, but the watchman had 100 pounds on the teen and followed him,,,and (so far it seems) had a gun,,,, my guess would be that poor kid was crying out after some grown man followed and assaulted or tried to restrain him,,, the police also said not to bother the kid too...that would be a matter for the police, not a "watchman" The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. they are not police, they are WATCHPEOPLE... they do not have any authority to act out as the police would. whether the kid was up to something or not, it would be a police matter, not a killing someone matter. all he had to do, which is his job anyway, is call the police and let them handle it. he was way out of bounds on this, and it should be charged as a hate crime. I don't know about FL law but here you absolutely have the right to defend yourself, your property or aid in the defense of a 3rd party. Again police only arrive after the fact 99.999% of the time. flordia is about the same, they are very self-protectant there... i have read stories were the car owners have shot people breaking in their car and was justified in the shooting... But i have to agree with MS on this, the watchman was being a cop wannabe. he had the police on the phone, all he had to do was stay back till the police got there, while still following. he never needed to confront the kid..

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 02:58 PM
Before weighing the story... Whos gun was it? (my watch carries only spray and speak techology). Who cried 'help'? the reports say the teen had just a cell phone, skittles and a pop, after returning from the store to try to finish watching the ball game my guess is , it was the 'watchmans' gun its not clear who cried help, but the watchman had 100 pounds on the teen and followed him,,,and (so far it seems) had a gun,,,, my guess would be that poor kid was crying out after some grown man followed and assaulted or tried to restrain him,,, the police also said not to bother the kid too...that would be a matter for the police, not a "watchman" The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. they are not police, they are WATCHPEOPLE... they do not have any authority to act out as the police would. whether the kid was up to something or not, it would be a police matter, not a killing someone matter. all he had to do, which is his job anyway, is call the police and let them handle it. he was way out of bounds on this, and it should be charged as a hate crime. I don't know about FL law but here you absolutely have the right to defend yourself, your property or aid in the defense of a 3rd party. Again police only arrive after the fact 99.999% of the time. flordia is about the same, they are very self-protectant there... i have read stories were the car owners have shot people breaking in their car and was justified in the shooting... But i have to agree with MS on this, the watchman was being a cop wannabe. he had the police on the phone, all he had to do was stay back till the police got there, while still following. he never needed to confront the kid.. thank you. I feel so bad for his father who probably thought he lived in a 'safe' neighborhood and this boy who was walking from a store and being followed by some strange man,,,,

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Tue 03/20/12 02:59 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 03/20/12 03:04 PM
yeah, this kid had the coward on his back after he followed and confronted him with a weapon, and because the kid ends up the one dead,, this grown man can claim he was just defending himself Who the hell are you to judge this situation? Where you there? Do you really have any facts, or are you just expressing outrage over the stories you have read which have imagined what happened without regard to the facts? The police have the facts from both sides, and Zimmerman is not under arrest, that fact alone should make people pause, but instead the people involved and the media have decided the real reason is racial, or anything imaginable to paint Zimmerman in a negative light, and Martin as an innocent. The facts are what matter, not the emotional response to the news stories. What we can imagine happening is not the same as what actually happened. Everyone that is judging this case without all the facts is biased. That is a fact.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 03:01 PM
yeah, this kid had the coward on his back after he followed and confronted him with a weapon, and because the kid ends up the one dead,, this grown man can claim he was just defending himself Who the hell are you to judge this situation? Where you there? Do you really have any facts, or are you just expressing outrage over the stories you have read which have imagined what happened without regard to the facts? I am a mother with a son near his age who could have been walking home from that store and looking to this man like a 'suspicious' '*******' , whom he had the right to confront with a gun,,, thats who I am,,,,

boredinaz06 Joined Sun 10/15/06 Posts: 22764	Tue 03/20/12 03:03 PM
Before weighing the story... Whos gun was it? (my watch carries only spray and speak techology). Who cried 'help'? the reports say the teen had just a cell phone, skittles and a pop, after returning from the store to try to finish watching the ball game my guess is , it was the 'watchmans' gun its not clear who cried help, but the watchman had 100 pounds on the teen and followed him,,,and (so far it seems) had a gun,,,, my guess would be that poor kid was crying out after some grown man followed and assaulted or tried to restrain him,,, the police also said not to bother the kid too...that would be a matter for the police, not a "watchman" The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. they are not police, they are WATCHPEOPLE... they do not have any authority to act out as the police would. whether the kid was up to something or not, it would be a police matter, not a killing someone matter. all he had to do, which is his job anyway, is call the police and let them handle it. he was way out of bounds on this, and it should be charged as a hate crime. I don't know about FL law but here you absolutely have the right to defend yourself, your property or aid in the defense of a 3rd party. Again police only arrive after the fact 99.999% of the time. flordia is about the same, they are very self-protectant there... i have read stories were the car owners have shot people breaking in their car and was justified in the shooting... But i have to agree with MS on this, the watchman was being a cop wannabe. he had the police on the phone, all he had to do was stay back till the police got there, while still following. he never needed to confront the kid.. thank you. I feel so bad for his father who probably thought he lived in a 'safe' neighborhood and this boy who was walking from a store and being followed by some strange man,,,, Unless you two were there and in Zimmerman's shoes all I hear is speculation. I'm not defending him and know that the outrage is because a kid got killed, now I am waiting for the fraud in chief and his punk holder to jump on the bandwagon and the race card get pulled.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Tue 03/20/12 03:05 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 03/20/12 03:07 PM
yeah, this kid had the coward on his back after he followed and confronted him with a weapon, and because the kid ends up the one dead,, this grown man can claim he was just defending himself Who the hell are you to judge this situation? Where you there? Do you really have any facts, or are you just expressing outrage over the stories you have read which have imagined what happened without regard to the facts? I am a mother with a son near his age who could have been walking home from that store and looking to this man like a 'suspicious' '*******' , whom he had the right to confront with a gun,,, thats who I am,,,, You do not know that he did confront Martin. So many things could have occurred that you are not accounting for. Zimmerman's father released a statement with almost no details, one of the details it did have was that Zimmerman did not confront the teen. If that is true then what must have happened? msharmony I want you to think about that and tell me what could have happened? Be imaginative . . . since that appears what everyone is good at. Take the time to imagine both sides, and all possible sets of circumstances. THEN you will be taking the time to have an unbiased assessment. I really dont think your capable myself, but hey we should give you the benefit of the doubt.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 03:06 PM
Before weighing the story... Whos gun was it? (my watch carries only spray and speak techology). Who cried 'help'? the reports say the teen had just a cell phone, skittles and a pop, after returning from the store to try to finish watching the ball game my guess is , it was the 'watchmans' gun its not clear who cried help, but the watchman had 100 pounds on the teen and followed him,,,and (so far it seems) had a gun,,,, my guess would be that poor kid was crying out after some grown man followed and assaulted or tried to restrain him,,, the police also said not to bother the kid too...that would be a matter for the police, not a "watchman" The whole point of neighborhood watch is to watch people acting suspicious or people your not familiar with being in the neighborhood. What if this guy didn't follow him as instructed by the police and he broke into someones house and stole money, a gun to be used in a crime later or raped a woman who was home alone? Then everybody would be looking at this Zimmerman dude, its a lose lose situation for him at this point. they are not police, they are WATCHPEOPLE... they do not have any authority to act out as the police would. whether the kid was up to something or not, it would be a police matter, not a killing someone matter. all he had to do, which is his job anyway, is call the police and let them handle it. he was way out of bounds on this, and it should be charged as a hate crime. I don't know about FL law but here you absolutely have the right to defend yourself, your property or aid in the defense of a 3rd party. Again police only arrive after the fact 99.999% of the time. flordia is about the same, they are very self-protectant there... i have read stories were the car owners have shot people breaking in their car and was justified in the shooting... But i have to agree with MS on this, the watchman was being a cop wannabe. he had the police on the phone, all he had to do was stay back till the police got there, while still following. he never needed to confront the kid.. thank you. I feel so bad for his father who probably thought he lived in a 'safe' neighborhood and this boy who was walking from a store and being followed by some strange man,,,, Unless you two were there and in Zimmerman's shoes all I hear is speculation. I'm not defending him and know that the outrage is because a kid got killed, now I am waiting for the fraud in chief and his punk holder to jump on the bandwagon and the race card get pulled. oh come now, people dont just assume its 'speculation' when any other story breaks,, about what a bill says, or what or who a politician was doing or associated with, or any other of the thousands of issues we discuss here but this,, we should reserve speculation,,,,,, sorry, not gonna happen, I hear this man on the phone call to a dispatcher, I hear him calling the boy an *******, I hear him complaining that they always get away, I hear him saying he is following the boy by his OWN words and actions, he hunted this boy,, whathever his reason, and now a boy is dead.,...

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Tue 03/20/12 03:09 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 03/20/12 03:11 PM
sorry, not gonna happen, I hear this man on the phone call to a dispatcher, I hear him calling the boy an *******, I hear him complaining that they always get away, I hear him saying he is following the boy by his OWN words and actions, he hunted this boy,, whathever his reason, and now a boy is dead.,.. on the 911 tape you hear him say he WAS following Martin. He did not say he was going to continue to follow him. The statement the police have from Zimmerman has been corroborated by witnesses. (A statement we do not have available for our own conversation) THAT is more powerful evidence than your speculations. . . and we wonder why we have such a travesty of a justice system. Here we have outrage, and emotion guiding the public response. Asking to arrest a man based on emotions, and imagination, not facts.

Ladylid2012 Joined Sun 07/05/09 Posts: 42269	Tue 03/20/12 03:11 PM
Right now on tv I'm watching the story... talking of the boy being on the phone with his girlfriend and hearing him (the boy) being confronted. Then a scuffle and the phone goes dead. The police have the phone, should be easy enough to verify.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Tue 03/20/12 03:12 PM
sorry, not gonna happen, I hear this man on the phone call to a dispatcher, I hear him calling the boy an *******, I hear him complaining that they always get away, I hear him saying he is following the boy by his OWN words and actions, he hunted this boy,, whathever his reason, and now a boy is dead.,.. on the 911 tape you hear him say he WAS following Martin. He did not say he was going to continue to follow him. The statement the police have from Zimmerman has been corroborated by witnesses. (A statement we do not have available for our own conversation) THAT is more powerful evidence than your speculations. witnesses corraborated they fought, big deal my speculation is based upon this mans words and actions, whether he was 'continuing' to follow him (Which would be a reason for him to ask that the police call him to find out where he is when they get there, as opposed to just meeting them by the mail box) or not his words imply he had a strong urge to not let someone 'get away' and that someone didnt,,,

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Tue 03/20/12 03:13 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 03/20/12 03:15 PM
Right now on tv I'm watching the story... talking of the boy being on the phone with his girlfriend and hearing him (the boy) being confronted. Then a scuffle and the phone goes dead. The police have the phone, should be easy enough to verify. Exactly. So this case needs more hard evidence, less speculation. Thank you Ladylid. However it remains to be seen if a recording was retrieved. on the phone when asked if he is following Martin, he response 'yes' and you can hear the background of the phone the sound of him moving thats pretty clear evidence that HE initated a threat, not the boy That is anything but clear evidence, that you think it is says a lot about your capabilities for drawing conclusions. All that bit does is make it clear he wanted to follow Martin. That is it. However even if he did follow Martin, that is not a crime. It does not in and of itself do anything in the determination of justification for self defense.