I want to do something I would call backwards-evangelism. I'm asking the question: Why is it, that whenever you trace back the ruling elite and powerful people who run this world, they are always into the occult? The Masons are the most obvious example. When you reach the 33rd level, they basically admit that they worship Lucifer. It is UNDENIABLE that there is a pentagram and a suare&compass "written" into the street design of DC. It is UNDENIABLE that there is a "shaft of Baal" (Washington monument) there and at the Vatican. Hope I don't have to spell out what it symbolizes. It is UNDENIABLE that the rich and powerful attend the Bohemian Grove where there is a giant stone Owl (Molech). So it doesn't really matter if YOU believe there is a real Devil or not. THEY believe and take THEIR religion very, very seriously. Which is stealing, killing, and destroying you and me - the sheep. We are all in the same boat - the powerless when it comes to this world system. You cannot deny that this world is messed up because THEY are in power - it effects everybodys daily lives (right now the economy). You can't "wish" them away by not believing they exist. There is only one way they are going to be defeated, and that is the return of Yahshua to rule and reign for 1000 years. "We battle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers." Let me here your explanation as to why the world is in the state that it is.

If Freemasons are sworn to secrecy then how is it that you know all about their "secrets" specially someone who thinks they have 33 degrees
Actual mason have 3 degrees except a tiny collection of the Scottish league.
I rest my case as I don't do religion.
General advice though. Don't speculate learn your facts

Because the Christians murdered all the Indians when they came to North America instead of learning from them.

The same thing happened in Europe when the Christians burned all the witches at stakes instead of learning from them.

This is why the world is in the state that it is. It's all due to Christian arrogance and domination. They murder all the loving people and then wonder why all that's left are hateful people like themselves.

It's silly.

Where to start here...

I'll start with the assertation that if the society is "secret" then why do people claim to know so much. First, there are many masons who have left that faith (and make no mistake it is a religion, as I'll prove) and from leaving that faith many of them have either given speeches, written book or articles shining a light on activities done in the dark.

A couple of things about Masonry: 1) Superior Masons deliberately lie to their fellow Masons, as those Masons "deserve to be mislead"; 2) Explanations given to 95% of all Masons are wrong. Listen to this quote from a Masonic author, Carl Claudy: "Cut through the outer shell and find a meaning; cut through that meaning and find another; under it, if you dig deep enough, you may find a third, a fourth -- who shall say how many teachings?"

Albert Pike is widely known to be the father of modern Freemasonry, lets take a look at some of the things he wrote, shall we?

Albert Pike's bold assertion in Morals & Dogma, that "Masonry is identical to the ancient Mysteries", which means that all their teachings in all their books are precisely the same as the Ancient, Pagan, Satanic Mysteries! [p. 624, teachings of the 28th Degree](So much for the 3rd degree is the top of the pyramid, but I digress.)


"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!" [Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 321, 19th Degree of Grand Pontiff;

How about another infamous mason, Manly P. Hall, what does he have to say?

"The day has come when Fellow Craftsman must know and apply their knowledge. The lost key to their grade is the mastery of emotion , which places the energy of the universe at their disposal. Man can only expect to be entrusted with great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and selflessly. When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare." [Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, K.T., The Lost Keys of Freemasonry or The Secret of Hiram Abiff , Forward by Reynold E. Blight, 33rd Degree, K.T., Illustrations by J. Augustus Knapp, 32nd Degree, Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, p. 48


Now thats just the tip of the iceberg with these folks, too much has come out about there activities and herein lies another reason why the masons have a hard time keeping all their secrets is that when you write them down, in a book, it's bound to get out to other people.

There's alot of proof about the elites running in occult circles, everyone from the Bush's to Hitler.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=dark+secrets+inside+the+bohemian+grove#


Now the concepts of Paganism, occultism, doesn't bother me much, at least in the sense that we have a freedom of religion in this country, however these are the same people who run for office under the auspices of being good faithful christians.

Abra, you have to understand that there are "real" Christians and "fake" Christians. The Vatican (Vat-O-sin) where the other Baal shaft sits is responsible for most of the atrocities carried out in the name of the church. They supported the Nazis and helped many of the war criminals escape after the war, and guess where many of them ended up - the USA and the CIA (operation Paperclip). The Devil has infiltrated and co-opted his greatest enemy - the Church. So I actually agree with you. But don't blame that stuff on "real" Christians.

Just research both our CIA and NASA and you'll find out where the majority of them went.

But discussing the history of those organizations belongs in a different forum...

I wish goodwill to you all.

Humankind's insatiable need to dominate, control, and label...

To elevate themselves through separation... to create 'ingroups' and 'outgroups'....


ANY form of justified thinking, is an illusion....irrespective of which 'godhead' is used.

"norslyman" ...you practicely answered you own question...you told of how everything is tied to religious beliefs including the return of Yahshua for a 1000 years which sounds like no one will get the chance to vote him into power and that he will just take power which falls more into the realm of dictator ...so to answer your question as to why the world is in the state that it is ...it's because of religious beliefs ...including yours

Instead of going that totally unfruitful and confusing route why not just become a humanitarian.

Then everyone will know what you stand for.

The problem with real Christians and fake Christians is that even they can' t decide who is fake and who is real, they will argue that to the end, each pointing to the other and calling each other fake.

Why would anyone want to follow such insanity.. Those who broke off from the Vatican decided they wanted to do things their way. Doesn't matter who broke off from what, they all want control over all human beings.

The same with Islam, they want control over all human beings ultimately.


Thanks but no thanks.

Truly. No other word can be used to decribe it than utter insanity.

I've held this position for a very long time, and Christians have done nothing but confirm that I'm prefectly correct.

If Christians finally converted the whole world to "Christainity" that would only be the START of the real Holy Wars!

They are already pointing fingers at each other screaming "My Christianity is better than your Christianity!"

It's utterly insane.

Christianity breeds bigots. Period.

And they will gladly be bigoted against each other at the drop of a that.

They have already shown by example over the millennia that their religion does nothing but produce division and bigotry.

The religion is a proven failed philosophy

It doesn't work to insill good moral behavior in anyone. All it does is incite people to point fingers of guilt and blame at each other.

Christians are so anxious to point their finger at people and call them "heathens" that if they can't find any non-Christians around they'll just start pointing their fingers at each other screaming "FAKE!"



Just look at what you said right there.

Vat-o-sin?

Christian bigotry at it's best.

So the Protestants protested against Catholicism because they don't like what the Pope had to say, and now they are all claiming to be individual Paper Popes pointing at all the other Pope (real or paper) and screaming "FAKE"!

I think the religion has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that it has lost any and all credibility as having any divine origin and it is nothing more than ego fodder for individial Paper Popes now.

Instead of pretending to speak for God, why not take a stand as a human being and speak for humanity?

At least that way you'll have a little credibility and respect. Even if people disagree with you, at least they know they are on even ground with you as a human.

Nobody has tackled my main question yet. If the Devil does not exist, why do the elite (who control the world) worship him? And surprise, surprise - their deeds are evil. I would further add the the #1 religion in America has become Asthoreth worship - the porn industry. In the OT Israel's enemies always worshipped these gods of fertility. The Masons are obsessed with sex. Who speaks out more against the porn industry today than the church? Who supports family values more than the church? There are UN quotes such as "The family is a disease and must be destroyed". If man were to come up with an ideal religion it would be Baal and Astoreth worship. Lots of free sex and just sacrifice the children so you have no responsibility. Anyone that thinks the bible was conceived by man is kidding themselves. Living a life is high morals is very difficult. Now really, tell me who you would rather have as a neighbor? Ned Flanders, or Ted Bundy (seemingly a good little law student). Not one of you is going to want to live next to Ted Bundy. Not one of you has acknowledged all the good things the church does in the world.

Are you prepared to acknowledge all the good things that people who aren't Christians do?

People of other faiths?

Atheistic organizations that serve humanity?

Clearly there are a lot of non-Christian organizations that serve humanity.

So what's your point?

A person needs to be a Christain to do good in this world?

Sorry, that been proven to be untrue.

Sure there are jerks in the world.

How does that prove they worship a demon?

If there is no God surely there would still be bad people?

Are you trying to suggest that if there was no God there would be no nasty people?

That seems kind of counterproductive to suggest that we need a God to explain that there are nasty people in the world.

Very strange indeed.

My sister is an independent writer who does fund raising. Many of these so called charity organizations are total rip-offs. So much money gets siphoned off the top its not even funny. The bigger the organization, the better the odds of corruption. Sadly, the same is true for many so-called Christian charities. And how about George Bush senior and Bill Clinton teaming up to beg for money after the Tsunami and Katrina for Red Cross was it? What a joke. They are both old CIA drug-running buddies. They laugh at the stupidity of the American people. They'll use tradgedies to get even more money. I'll admit that some aid probably made it to some people, but the vast majority got siphoned off.

I'll be the first to agree with you that many humans are quite dispicable.

What I don't understand is what that has to do with religion.

I'm not religious, and I'm not dispicable.

So clearly these things aren't related.

I mean, do you really need to be a Christian to be a good person?

That's certainly not true for me. I don't go around doing dirt to other people, and I'm not a Christian.

I just don't see where it's a religious question at all.

Moreover, isn't George Bush a Christian? But you don't seem to be happy with his behavior.

I guess he's just a fake Christian then?

Actually, there is a bible verse that covers that: Romans 2:14"For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by NATURE the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves." So I guess you are a law unto yourself. But the vast majority of humans need some help in becoming righteous. Oh, I forgot one charity that is pretty much non-Christian, but very good - The Heiffer Project. I've given to them. They help families become self-sufficient by giving them sheep, goats, cows, ect.

My main point is that we all have a common enemy that wants to destroy us all. The bible helps pinpoint the exact spiritual nature of that enemy. Do you deny the supernatural exists? Ever seen "A Haunting" on the Discovery channel? Could you tell one of those families they didn't experience something?

We have a freight train coming down the tracks at us called The New World Order and we're all just standing in the middle of the tracks arguing with each other instead of focusing our energy on the real enemy.

And by the way, the first time Bush Sr. ever used the phrase "New World Order" was Sept 11, 1990. 11 years to the day of 9-11. Occult symbology is their way of bragging.

they worship the devil because he tells them what they want to hear, just like Xians who worship whatever it is they worship, because it tells them what they want to hear, the word of faith group wants to believe that god will give them money for a seed faith offering, others want to believe they are saved by faith so all their bad deeds don't mean anything. the pentagram is a corruption of an old pagan trioska with Xian elements put into it. Are you asking that if we believe the devil exists that means your version of god must exist? Perhaps you should take a course in logic and prepare a better arguement.

text say SATAN was sent to man by GOD?

to believe in god, make satan, or the opposite of god as the EVIL?

to believe in satan, make god, or the opposite of satan as the evil?

either way, it to make a GOLDEN IMAGE OF GOD?

no wonder it say the knowing of god come to an end on the seventh day, as if god rest, the the knowing of things as either god or satan, come to rest, or has been fulfilled, the same as to say, man's awareness has reached a point in time, that it is too smart to FALL FOR EITHER ONE?

satan was called ignorance, lucifer as pride, and text saying ALL HAVE "FALLEN" short of the glory of god?

how does then anything, that believe in god, ASSUME AND DECLARE SELF AS A MESSENGER OF GOD, saying that OTHERS are not of god, and it be of god?

was not godo called as INNER MAN, the kingdom of heaven WITHIN?

saying further to love thy enemies?

how does one access another of satan, and then say they love their enemy?

it is also written to agree with thine adversary quickly?

so how is the adversary to be warred against, and this said to be of god?

text also say ALL ARE CHILDREN OF GOD?

saying within text that ALL ARE HUMANS ARE CREATED IN GODS IMAGE?

so how can something say it believe in all the text, and say how is of satan, and how is not?

did it not also say satan was sent to man by god?

so then satan, or ignorance of a larger plan, is not doing anything that is not supposed to be?

did it not say "god hardened pharoahs heart"?

did it not also say "when it look like evil is all around fear not"?

did it not also say "nothing can resist the will of god"?

did it not also say "god give the desires of the heart"?

did it not also say "anyone who judges will be judged in the same manner"?

how can any most good truth, say all others are not of god, BUT I MYSELF AM?

does not this thing show itself is not?

is not this pride, which is said to only come and be lucifer in the flesh?

so how are our precious leaders, who live, and think, and are JUST LIKE US, come to be called satan?

how is this loving enemies, as even if something fit some description, of a personal idea of what OTHERS EVIL BE, are not ALL THINGS WORKING FOR GOOD, TO THOSE THAT LOVE GOD?

why would it say ALL things, less that was also what looked as "bad"?

if god be perfect, and have perfect power, and nothing human can subvert the will of god, then how is ONE DETAIL OF ANYTHING IN THE WORLD NOT AS JUST WHAT IT IS TO BE?

did it not also say, what be sin for one, be NOT SIN FOR ANOTHER?

so hwo are alll such judgments made, of human being, struggling with the same principles of all that others are, accessed as satanic, as this would not create divide, less self see self not as equal, and of the same?

if anything believe in god, then is it not most equal, that say to "love thine enmeies"?

to treat thy neighbor as thyself?

if life flow from god, then life start with thought, and the way others define thought, CANNOT BE ACCESSED AS LESS THAN SELF, OR SELF HAS MADE ITSELF AS THE ONLY GOD, and this is said to be the pride of lucifer, so then who is not lucifer and the devil and a demon, as well as god and wisdom and spirit of god?

peace is of god, and peace cannot ever exist without first unpeace, as what would love peace, less it first know unpeace?

how can anything, see all things thru the tree of knowledge of ONLY GOOD AND EVIL, and not be partaking of the cursed view, that is kept from seeing any larger purpose and love, THAT ALL MORTALS ARE PRECIOUS, AND NONE OF SATAN ANY GREATER THAN ANY OTHER, as let he without sin, cast the first stone?

how is anything that say it has no sin, and say another has sin, not exactley that definition of satan, that say "proclaimed self as god, and greater than god", as ALL CHIILDEN SEEMS TO DENOTE ALL?

if god be within, and satan be the carnel mind, then who does not have both?

how is not god and satan, both just TWO potentials that lie within all things?

how is most truth anything more than a logic that does not think thru the mind, that see many enemies?

alll such things are of the tree of divide, and create and perpetuate all proposed evil that ever existed, as the tree of life flow from the heart, and finsih the logic of the mind, WITH THE REST OF THE STROY, SEEING NOT ONE AS BAD, AND SELF AS GOOD, OR SELF AS HOLY, AND OTHERS AS NOT HOLY?


ALL ARE OF GOD, OR NONE ARE OF GOD, if text is to hold true?

just ideas........

Where do you get that idea form? The Bible?

I don't believe that the creator of this universe is at war with an evil demon.

Sorry, but that just makes absolutely no sense to me at all.



To be perfectly honesty with you I feel that Mediterranean mythology got way off track in many areas.

The Bible, the Torah, and even the Koran all stem from the same Mediterranean folklore. Why would they have gotten so disoriented and off-track if they were based on "The word of God"?

Also, why believe in the Bible over the Torah or Koran?

I mean if you're going to believe in the Mediterranean folklore why single out the Bible?

As far as I'm concerned Jesus denounced some of the major commandments of the God of Abraham. Such as stoning sinners to death (which the Jews were still doing in Jesus day), and Jesus also taught to turn the other cheek (forgive) instead of, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth (seek vengeance), that the God of Abraham taught.

I don't see how Jesus could have possible had anything to do with the God of Abraham. I believe that Jesus was trying to teach the way of the wizard (i.e. Buddhism)



Supernatural? I believe in the spiritual. I don't think there's anything supernatural about it. Our true nature is spiritual. I believe that spirit is omniscient in everything. I believe that our true essences is spirit and that there was never a time when we were naught. I believe in reincarnation. After all, if you can believe in life after death, then why not life before birth?



What real enemy?

Satan?

There is no demonic angel who is at war with God. Besides, as a Christian you're supposed to believe that Jesus already defeated Satan so the war is over.

You talk about arguing. But who's arguing?

You seem to be arguing that everyone needs to become a Christian or whatever. But many people who aren't Christians are nice people. Plus you're just singing to the choir anyway. If there are real demons who are out to get you do you honestly think they are interested in converting to your side?

Here, listen to a song I wrote about it. Sung by Reverend Rabbit.

http://www.csonline.net/designer/ideas/peace.htm

If you believe in God, have a little faith that God can handle the universe.

After all, if he created the place surly he can handle it. No need to panic.

Unless, of course, you think that Satan has the upper hand.

Satan will never have the upper hand. He is already defeated. His day is coming and all those who reject God. God wishes for none to perish, but many will, because of their unbelief.