I stand by my defenition of a witch. What you are talking about would have been called a midwife I believe. You still have to find me an example out of the bible, not the 15th century. I remind you of the false church and refer you to the Harlot Church post. These are the people who expanded the defenition of a witch to include midwives and natural healers. THEY love to change the meaning of words, right out of the novel 1984, it's called "newspeak". A conveniant way to get rid of people they don't like.

The bible has a rich history of healers. The midwives in Egypt were well known - and I'll admit, maybe they learned some things from the Egytians. Remember, Moses was schooled in Egyptian arts, and I'm sure healing was one of the things he learned. "Not one Israelite was sick or lame when they left Egypt".
The "Balm of Gilead" was well known.
Oils were widely used.
Yashua was known as the "Great Physician" and most of his miracles were healing sickness.
Luke was a physician.

I'll admit the church has dropped the ball on this one. More like taken the ball and buried it in a hole. I applaud people like Tom Cruise and what's his name who's son just died - they take a lot of flak. I don't agree with anything else about Scientology except their stron anti-drug stance - especially the Ritalin, Prozac issue. They put the church to shame. We should be the leaders in the entire field of health and healing. I got a great documentary from Scientology "Pshycology, Industry of Death" - it was excellent.

Satan in misunderstood. The Bible is very hard on Lucifer, Beelzebub, or whatever name you will give him.

If you read the Bible FIGURATIVELY, the way BOOKS are meant to be read, and not FANATICALLY, then Lucifer embodies change. God tells man not to eat from the apple tree and the serpent tempts them, thus giving rise to civilization. Lucifer tempts Jesus Christ in the desert in an attempt to have some of Jesus' power. In both of these cases, Lucifer dares man to question God. If Jesus had gone with Lucifer then maybe Pilate would not have killed him.

If Eden really was a place, then life would be impossibly different if man still lived in it. Time has progressed the way it has and people have met each other because we are NOT in paradise. So, if you truly believe all that jargon in the Bible as FACT, like some evangelical preachers do, then NONE OF US would exist without Lucifer.

When Lucifer defies God and wishes for more power, he is overthrowing a system ruled by a tyrant. You can say anything you want about God being benevolent and always having the best interests in mind (although if you look at the first half of the BOOK then he seems like quite the anti-hero), but
He doesn't like to share power. He also smites people he doesn't like or anyone who disobeys his ten rules without exception or appeal or a trial. That sounds a lot like a tyrant to me.

Joseph Campbell says of Lucifer:
"One of the most amazing images of love that I know is Persian – a mystical Persian representation as Satan as the most loyal lover of God. You will have heard the old legend of how, when God created the angels, he commanded them to pay worship to no one but himself; but then, creating man, he commanded them to bow in reverence to this most noble of his works, and Lucifer refused – because, we are told, of his pride. However, according to this Muslim reading of his case, it was rather because he loved and adored God so deeply and intensely that he could not bring himself to bow before anything else, and because he refused to bow down to something that was of less superiority than him. (Since he was made of fire, and man from clay.) And it was for that that he was flung into Hell, condemned to exist there forever, apart from his love."

Lucifer is not evil. Christians call Lucifer evil. When's the last time you read about Lucifer killing anyone in the Bible? Ever? Did Lucifer flood the entire world killing everything but a single family? Did Lucifer commit genocide on every Egyptian family?

That isn't to say that Lucifer should be worshiped via Pentagram and the occult, nor that he shouldn't. Lucifer embodies change, and change can be good or evil. Judge the man and his actions, not the image that you are told of him.

Your definition of a Witch is taken from the bible because that is ALL you are using. That is incomplete. The practice of Witchcraft from a historical standpoint is ancient and predates Christianity. It’s comprised of stories, myths, legends and folklores. This was particularly common among the roman and Greeks. However, with time, they started distinguishing one form of sorcery from the other. One was named as good sorcery while the other was called evil sorcery. Evil sorcery in those days was punishable by the law. However, with the advent and proliferation of Christianity came the loss of distinction between the two groups. As far as Christians were concerned, all forms of sorcery was witchcraft.

This was the case until the sudden breakout in isolated occurrences of witchcraft accusations. These accusations were mostly directed at heretics as they were seen to reject the teachings of the church. Initially, these heretics were just excommunicated from the church. But with time, the church started seeking the means to quench all heretical voices. Thus began the long and torturous era of condemning the heretics by burning them up.

In 1200 AD, church leaders started a massive campaign to eliminate all forms of heresy from among the people. The initial ploy was to get them to forcefully reject their beliefs and ideas and become Christians again. Since many of them remained adamant, the church started an inquisition that saw to the convictions and death of all heretics. With time however, even secular courts joined in the execution and the term witches began to be officially and popularly used. These people were condemned to death because they were thought to participate in evil rites that included the obscene worship of the devil.

By the later part of the 1500s, the idea of witchcraft and witches was so ingrained in people, that the mere mention of it caused anxiety and fear to erupt. During this same, period, the hunt for witches became large scale. This was instigated by the claims of two girls who made allegations of witchcraft against three women in Salem, Massachusetts. History has it that these girls had a fascination with secret occult rites and suddenly started acting strangely. They would scream while contorting their faces and body in a manner most horrible. Thus, the three women were arrested. This was followed by the arrests of over 150 people in total out of which 19 were killed by convicted of witchcraft and executed by hanging. This lasted for about a year after which all other suspects were freed.



Yes you are right and guess who was routinely burned at the stake as being a Witch? Women have always been healers. They were the unlicensed doctors and anatomists of western history. They were abortionists, nurses and counselors. They were pharmacists, cultivating healing herbs and exchanging the secrets of their uses. They were midwives, traveling from home to home and village to village. For centuries women were doctors without degrees, barred from books and lectures, learning from each other, and passing on experience from neighbor to neighbor and mother to daughter. They were called "wise women" by the people, witches or charlatans by the authorities.

My Magic Eight Ball says, "Outlook not Good". (But then it also says that when I ask it what's the best email client to use on my computer. ;)

Penn and Teller did part of a show on Ouija boards. Using unbiased folks, they ran a series of tests where, in the later ones, they blindfolded the testers and surreptitiously rotated the Ouija board 180 degrees so that the testers wouldn't know where the 'yes' and 'no' text actually was. As expected, the testers moved the planchette to where the yes/no text _previously_ was located.

Extra credit assignment: put a copy of Tim LaHaye's "Left Behind" on the planchette. (In my tests, the board starts spelling out the lyrics to Pink Floyd's "Money". YMMV.)

-Kerry O.

Science reveals.

Well actually I had asked Norslyman if he felt the church was justified in torturing and killing women as Witches and I never got a straight answer. I wasn’t really expecting one.

I've noticed that whenever you ask evangelicals a really good question that is conflicting with their views they usually seem to do 1 of 2 things.

1. Don't reply at all.

or

2. Say something that is loosely (if at all) related to your question that fails to answer it in the slightest.

OOeee, UUahhahh, bing bang walla wall bing bang
God just told me that you all need to send me a thousand dollar seed faith offering.

Sorry, I think I am off my meds tonite.

3. They copy and paste page upon page of extended biblical exegesis with no apparent break in paragraph and expect you to find the 5 sentences buried in the middle that might address the topic of discussion. Bear in mind that’s a big "might".

Of course not, silly question. I thought that had been made clear.

What I do agree with is the wars that Israel fought against it's enemies in the OT. These cultures were so into the worship of their gods and so demonized that there was no hope for them. This truly was a battle of the gods. Yahweh vs Baal. They trusted in their god Baal so much to bring them victory in battle, Yahweh had no choice than to let it play out so that everbody could see who the true god really was. Hard to attend a church when everybody is dead. Eventually all the surrounding nations began to greatly fear the Israelites, but did they repent, no. So the killing went on. And don't call it murder. Killing in a just war is not murder. Not like the Iraq/Afgan wars though. We ARE murdering innocents in these wars.

No it was never addressed that I saw. Please point out where it was. How can you say "of course not" as a Christian? You yourself have repeatedly stated that "Witches are evil."

We haven't nailed down the defenition of a witch.

Soooo... are you trying to say that when the church was torturing and killing women as witches that the witches were at war with the church and that it was a "just" war?

Who gets to decide which wars are "just" and which aren't for that matter?

You would make a good Mason. This is pretty much what they believe. Lucifer embodies CHANGE, reminds me of Obama. We are headed for change in this country all right.

Lucifer didn't want more power, he wan't it all! It was an attempted coup. And you're darn right Yahwehs a dictator, he owns it all. How about if I waltz into your house and start ordering you around - it would be a change wouldn't it - and therefore a good thing.

When has Lucifer ever killed anyone? Are you kidding me? Reminds me of a story from the Soviet gulags. A poor prisoner starving to death tried to get a letter off to Stalin asking "Does Stalin know what is going on here, someone should inform him so he can stop this." Go ahead and write a letter to Lucifer.

And Joseph Cambell really does write myth, I'll stick with the facts. Like Sgt Joe Friday "Just the facts ma'am."

Im going to tell you someting.

Adolph Hitler=Practicing Catholic



George Washington=Freemason

You might be better served to crack a history book instead of a bible for a couple weeks.

I posted an historical account of what a Witch is.

I've already talked about the Vatican, the Nazis, operation paperclip, and the CIA. First couple pages I think.

I honestly do need to read up on the founding Fathers. I've been told that the early freemasons were good, and got infiltrated by the Illuminati. But that is second hand info.

I call a temporary cease-fire, so we can all agree that herbs, natural medicine, wine and Pot are all good.

And that the IRS (haven't even touched them yet) are very, very bad because they will throw you in jail and seize your car and house for a dime bag.

Okay as long as you are not going to start in denying these historical realities. The Founding Fathers were primarily Deists.

Here we have a concerned Christian Pot smoker with a capital "P".

Sorry norslyman, you're just a witch and don't know it yet.