*Shrug* Suit yourself. As far as I'm concerned, potential is what defines human life, not is-it-or-isn't-it-alive-and-when. I think it all really boils down to a war of worldviews. On one end, humans are no more than clever animals (or animals no less than simple humans); on the other end, humanity an infinite God's most prized creation.

Anyway, I'm done arguing. This thread is hardly going to change anything; at the end of the day I'm pretty certain we'll all have the same views we woke up with.

No, I disagree. "Instead of blaming the dealer, play the hand you got dealt." Yes, you were born with a specific set of genes and grew up in certain circumstances, but that's about it. There's not much excuse for not using your brain when you have one, and just about everybody can take good care of their hair, teeth, skin and health. Clothes? I shop at Wal-Mart and I put together outfits that make me look like a celebrity. So yes and no.

Ah, you want me to see the real world? Sure. Here goes...

Baby boomers aging. America's in debt, not only the government but individuals as well. We're aborting our future workforce and putting the economy's future very much in jeopardy. But "economy" is a detached-sounding term. What I mean is that we put the safety and comfort of younger generations at risk.

As for the man's imperfect perception of the problem? Well, just about every woman I know, some who have had abortions, some who haven't, insist there's no excuse. Coming from women, many of them very wise, I'm inclined to believe them.

But, the thing is..."pro-choicers" are busily aborting children who, given the opportunity to live, would be taught that set of values. While we over here on the right are quite comfy and making babies like there's no tomorrow, then raising them with our own values and beliefs. Don't think it'll make a difference? Statistically, "left-wingers" currently have a negative birth-to-death ratio, while "right-wingers" have a consistently positive birth-to-death ratio, with the highest rate in the nation by far belonging to "mainstream Christians".

I have no delusions of grandeur, my friend. I prefer to look at things from a practical standpoint.

Ugh. Since when is the baby the same thing as the woman's body? This is a separate human life we're talking about, not a decision on whether or not to lose weight or get a tan. "Pro choice" is a pretty term for justifying exactly the opposite: stealing the choice..in fact, all choices..from a precious human-being-to-be.

Neither do I lack personal connection to the issue. My oldest brother was aborted years before I was born...it would have been nice to know him. And my mom, though she's since healed from the mistake, still greatly regrets that decision.

Ooh, cool!

I'm totally rooting for either Mike or Mit Romney. Both of them would be fantastic.

I do one sit-up a day.

I get up in the morning, that's half.

I go to bed at night, that's the other half.

I did start a new exercise program the other day, though...but I threw my back out in the first twenty minutes.


So I put down the booklet...

You know, I just take the view that I'm out to have some good fun, I'll enjoy it while it lasts, and if I go through a few breakups then no big deal. Life goes on, right? I'm just out to have a blast, and I know that the right girl will show up when we're both ready.

As mc chris says so well, "Life's a b1tch and I'm her pimp."

Dude, I know! I saw that a few weeks ago. Best. Endorsement. Evar!

Pope Benedict XVI visits president Bush for discussion of various world affairs, as such bigwigs are known to do, and for general purposes of goodwill between the white house and the Vatican. While the Pope is visiting, the two take a day-trip to a lake in Virginia, relaxing in a rather luxurious presidential yacht. As the two are conversing on the lower deck in the early afternoon a sudden breeze picks up and blows the Pope's rather tall hat into the water.

The Secret Service are about to spring into action and retrieve the hat when George issues a casual command to stay put. The President proceeds to lift his leg over the railing of the boat, set his foot on the surface of the water, then the other leg, then foot, until he's literally standing on the water. He strides out to the hat, picks it up, returns to the boat and climbs over the railing. He hands the hat back to Pope Benedict, who is wearing a stunned expression on his face.

Naturally, of course, the press had been present and seen the whole thing. Unsurprisingly, the next morning's edition of the New York Times sported the headline, "BUSH CAN'T SWIM"

Hah! Love him or hate him, Bush is by far the funniest president to date.

Though if Huckabee wins next, we'll have a serious contender for the title.

*salutes*

Thanks. Fantastic book. I actually got to see Rob speak live in San Antonio a couple of months ago. What an experience!

...It's pretty simple really. It doesn't matter when the baby officially "becomes a human being."

Define murder.

The intentional, conscious cessation of another human being's life without consent?

We humans are constantly making choices...every second you make multiple choices, many of which you're not even fully aware of. Regardless of your religion or philosophies or beliefs, one can hardly deny that a fundamental part of being human is that constant stream of choices. Life is POTENTIAL.
Murder is taking that choice, that potential from someone in a very final, very permanent way. That's a part of why we as a species usually consider murder such a grave sin.

Who cares whether or not the baby is truly "alive" and when? The fact is that the moment a sperm cell's 12 chromosomes fuse with an egg's 12, the *potential* for human life is created...billions of choices, experiences, emotions lay ahead for that new set of DNA.

Even if I knew my son were to be born with a fatal illness, I wouldn't deprive him of the experience of this world we live in. I'd make sure he has a full, rich experience, filled with as much joy, laugher, peace and love as I can possibly endeavor to cram into his short, blessed lifespan, and then do my best to help him leave this world as painlessly and peacefully as possible when the time comes. :)

What if the baby you're carrying grows up to become the president of the US? Or a great minister? Or a doctor? All the people she'll help...even if she's not yet "officially human," are you content with deciding her fate for her before she even has a chance?

Neither is the challenge of raising a child an excuse. The demand for children for adoption has consistently been greater than "supply" for god-knows-how-long, and isn't likely to go away any time soon.

My two cents. I'm done.

Hokay, this is gonna be a novel...

I agree. It's unfortunate to have to say, but American Christianity has largely (not entirely, but largely) become the very thing Jesus preached so fervently against.

Pastor Rob Bell says it far better than I can:

"Different rabbis had different sets of rules, which were really different lists of what they forbade and what they permitted. A rabbi's set of rules and lists, which was really that rabbi's interpretation of how to live the Torah, was called that rabbi's yoke. When you followed a certain rabbi, you were following him because you believed that rabbi's set of interpretations were the closest to what God intended through the Scriptures. And when you followed that rabbi, you were taking up that rabbi's yoke.

One rabbi even said his yoke was easy.

The intent then of a rabbi having a yoke wasn't just to interpret the words correctly; it was to live them out. In the Jewish context, action was always the goal. It still is.

Rabbis would spend hours discussing with their students what it meant to live out a certain text. If a student made a suggestion about what a certain text meant and the rabbi though the student had totally missed the point, the rabbi would say, "You have abolished the Torah," which meant that in the rabbi's opinion, the student wasn't anywhere near what God wanted. But if the student got it right, if the rabbi thought the student had grasped God's intention in the text, the rabbi would say, "You have fulfilled the Torah."

Notice that what Jesus says in one of his first messages: "I have not come to abolish [the Torah] but to fulfill [it]." He was essentially saying, "I didn't come to do away with the words of God; I came to show people what it looks like when the Torah is lived out perfectly, right down to the smallest punctuation marks."

"I'm here to put flesh and blood on the words."

Most rabbis taught the yoke of a well respected rabbi who had come before them. So if you visited a synagogue and the local rabbi (Torah teacher) was going to teach, you might hear that this rabbi teaches in the name of Rabbi So-and-So. If you were familiar with the yoke of Rabbi So-and-So, then you would know what to expect from this rabbi.

Every once in a while, a rabbi would come along who was teaching a new yoke, a new way of interpreting the Torah. This was rare an extraordinary.

Imagine: A rabbi was claiming that he had a new way to understand the Scriptures that was closer to what God intended than the way of the rabbis who had come before him. A new take on the Scriptures.

The questions would immediately be raised: "How do we know this is truth? How do we know this rabbi isn't crazy?" One of the protections for the rabbi in this case was that two other rabbis with authority would lay hands on the rabbi and essentially validate him. They would be saying, "we believe this rabbi has authority to make new interpretations." That's why Jesus' baptism was so important. John the Baptist was a powerful teacher and prophet who was saying publicly that he wasn't worthy to carry Jesus' sandals.

"And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'"

A second voice affirmed Jesus' unique calling. The voice of God.

Amazing.

A Jewish audience reading Matthew's account of Jesus' baptism would pick up right away on Jesus' getting the affirmation of two powerful voices.

Which leads to an interesting scene: In the book of Luke, what is the one question the religious leaders keep hounding Jesus with?

"Where did you get your authority?"

Jesus' response? "You tell me, where did John get his?"

Now imagine if a rabbi who had a new perspective on the Torah was coming to town. This rabbi who was making new interpretations of the Torah was said to have authority. The Hebrew word for "authority" is "shmikah." This might not even happen in your lifetime. You would hike for miles to hear him.

A rabbi who taught with /shmikah/ would say things like "You have heard it said..., but I tell you..."

What he was saying is, "You have heard people interpret that verse this way, but I tell you that this is what God really means in that verse."

Now the rabbis had technical terms for this endless process of forbidding and permitting and making interpretations. They called it "binding and loosing". To "bind" something was to forbid it. To "loose" something was to allow it. So a rabbi would bind certain practices and loose other practices. And when he gave his disciples the authority to bind and loose, it was called "giving the keys of the kingdom".

Notice what Jesus says in the book of Matthew: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on hearth will be loosed in heaven."

-Pastor Rob Bell, "Velvet Elvis" (c)2005

What he is doing is significant. He is giving his followers the authority to make /new/ interpretations of the Bible. He is giving them permission to say, "Hey, we think we missed it before on that verse, and we've recently come to the conclusion that this is what it actually means."

And not only is he giving them the authority, but he is saying that when they do debate and discuss and pray and wrestle and then make decisions about the Bible, somehow God in heaven will be involved."

All that to say...CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE THE MOST OPEN-MINDED PEOPLE ON THE PLANET!

Mindlessly following dogma is not what was intended. We were meant to wrestle and question and think and debate...true Christianity is a Great Conversation, not a life of unbending rules.

[/sermon]

This is going to sound terrible, but I'm posting it anyway, because it's true.

"Having a problem? You need a new skill.
If you have some area of your life that isn’t working for you, you probably need a new SKILL.
I realized a few years ago that most people look at themselves and say things like, “There must be something WRONG WITH ME. I don’t know why. I just can’t do it.”
But, in fact, the problem wasn’t something ‘wrong’ with them; the problem was that they needed to learn a new skill or a set of skills.
Meeting women comes down to SKILLS. If you’re having a problem in a particular area, get new skills to deal with it. For instance, if you have learned to meet women and get phone numbers, you might start having them flake out on you and not show up for planned meetings. Solution: A new skill. You need to learn the skill of getting women to meet you after making plans."

-Eben W. Pagan

Mine has no idea. ~_^

Dedicated to...oh, I dunno. MC Router, I suppose. (Sorry Router. Gotta pick on someone ;3)

"Romantic Cheapskate v.2.0" by MC Frontalot

You want flowers; I understand that flowers are grand.
They tend to pretty up a gentleman caller’s left hand.
They don’t stand in for love but they symbolize aptly.
Grab a handful of blossoms as I pass by the crab tree,
hand these to the recipient of my affections,
urge they float in a crystal bowl (which I don’t provide). The misdirections
of the close magic practitioner
are like Bruce Wayne’s winking subterfuge with the commissioner
as compared to my ability
to convince you that the mints you had, fragility
of wafer thinness established, were gourmet,
palmed though they were from the bulk bin at Safeway.
Hey! You want better? You better want what you need,
not too much in excess of that lest you flaunt with your greed.
“I want to be in love at any price.”
Who would seek a dozen roses when a posy would suffice?

I’ll read you poetry, I’ll tell you what I know to be true,
I’ll make a sentimental observation about the moon,
I’ll kiss you so that you could think that kisses are sublime,
but I won’t spend a penny
‘cause all that you’re worth is my time.

And I don’t mean to bother my pretty head with the math
but I’ve yet to spend a nickel and I’m pretty good with the past.
I’m pretty solid on the figures. They add up:
curvature never to enter into the graph of the ones that had love.
An ever-rising number of ‘em! Oh but you’re final.
Take the needle off the record, take the finger off the vinyl.
I’ll assign all necessary function to the heart.
Don’t know the economy of the energy that’s involved but it’s apart
from the pocketbook and the book-keeping thereof.
That ledger’s glued together; to open up’s very rough,
very difficult, barely worth the effort.
You wonder when we’re going to Peru again? Never.
Sever that fantasy from out your conscious mind
‘less you’re springing for the cab ride down (then that’s just fine).
I don’t offer brimming coffers on the cost of your disgrace.
I can tender sweet nothings, come on over to my place.

We write rhymes when you meet us on the shores of the Seine.
You and we, in between us there’s a gathering refrain:
“cheapskates,” what you call us in those moments of disdain,
and it don’t seem to me we’re entitled to the name.
Cheap-what?! Dirty word for such a generous soul
who could lavish affection without any venerous goal
or who, with such a goal in mind, could apprehend
any climax in the offing so as not to precede a friend.
And indeed the end of the world could be upon us:
it could be you and me blazingly enough to astonish
all onlookers with the glory of our passion.
I know my sentimental earnestness is not so much in fashion
but I keep it ‘round the house; some day you’ll think it’s vintage
instead of deeming it narcotic (as is Olive’s take on spinach).
I’m going to finish what I started with you, this you can expect.
And I’ll call it never-ending when I call you up collect.

Dedicated to Monosyllabic


"Her Eyes" by Pat Monahan

She's not afraid; she just likes to use her night light
When she gets paid, true religion gets it all
If they fit right.

She's a little bit manic, completely organic
Doesn't panic for the most part.

She's old enough to know, and young enough not to say no
To any chance that she gets for home plate tickets to see the Mets.
Like everybody, she's in over her head,
Dreads Feds, Grateful Dead, and doesn't take meds.

She's a Gemini Capricorn
Thinks all men are addicted to porn.
I don't agree with her half the time,
But, damn I'm glad she's mine.

Her eyes, that's where hope lies.
That's where blue skies
Meet the sunrise.
Her eyes, that's where I go
When I go home.

She got the kinda strength that every man wishes he had.
She loved Michael Jackson up until he made Bad.

Tells me that she lives about a hundred lives,
Scares me to death when she thinks and drives,
Says cowboy hats make her look fat,
and I'm so glad she's mine.

Her eyes, that's where hope lies.
That's where blue skies
Meet the sunrise.
Her eyes, that's where I go
When I go home.

She doesn't know the word 'impossible'
Don't care where I've been and doesn't care where we're goin' to.
She takes me as I am, and that ain't easy.
She's beautiful. So beautiful.

And sometimes I think she's truly crazy.
And I love it.

Her eyes, that's where hope lies.
That's where blue skies
Always meet the sunrise.
Her eyes, that's where I go
When I go home.

Her eyes, that's where hope lies.
That's where blue skies
Always meet the sunrise.
Her eyes, that's where I go
When I go home.

She's not afraid
she just likes to use her night light.

Ahh! Finally...one with the Force!

Oh wait...the souls of the Sith stay with their bodies...crap.

Sweet. I've been looking forward to trying out this new lightsaber I built.

Hehe..It's called friendly banter. You should try it, it's fun.