it does matter because it is to easy to "google cut and paste" the thoughts of others ..I been in debates when people try to "google cut and paste" the entire Bible ...you are the one on the site that I'm debating with and not "google" so form your own thoughts and not the pre-programmed google thoughts of others ..like they say in court "those people are not here and therefore I cannot cross examine them"



dude let the Einstein issue go ..



"to believe is to doubt" funches 3:16

Then I must be god because I have free will. (pantheist)

"Evil" is only defined within Religious doctrine. It has no meaning to a pantheist or a true atheist.

"Sin" is only defined within Religious doctrine. It has no meaning to a pantheist or a true atheist.

"Law breaking" is only defined within a society. Laws have no meaning to anyone outside that society, they only apply if you are living in that society.

Evil does not exist. Sin does not exist.

Laws exist only in a society. I do not care about the laws of Sweden or Russia. I don't live in Sweden or Russia. Therefore those laws are meaningless to me.

Sin and Evil are meaningless to me because I do not live under the authority of the Religion that defines them.

JB

Then I must be god because I have free will. (pantheist)

"Evil" is only defined within Religious doctrine. It has no meaning to a pantheist or a true atheist.

"Sin" is only defined within Religious doctrine. It has no meaning to a pantheist or a true atheist.

"Law breaking" is only defined within a society. Laws have no meaning to anyone outside that society, they only apply if you are living in that society.

Evil does not exist. Sin does not exist.

Laws exist only in a society. I do not care about the laws of Sweden or Russia. I don't live in Sweden or Russia. Therefore those laws are meaningless to me.

Sin and Evil are meaningless to me because I do not live under the authority of the Religion that defines them.

JB
Rev High Priestess of the Universal Life Church of Brutal Truth and Honesty, members, one. Pantheist, God, and free spirit.

P.S.


You sound as if you speak of the devil, but I think, if the above statement is true, you speak of the non-human humanoid life forms who were the alien gods of old. They may still live here on the earth. They are not nice people.

Uh Jeannie,

Free will as a concept was also a product of religion... a religious pardon, as it were, for the existance of evil...



Free will does not exist...

It does not exist as a thing. This is true. It is the power of self direction. You can use it or not. You can acknowledge it or not. As a thing, it has no existence of its own. It is the power to direct ones own thoughts and actions above and beyond that which we are automatically programmed for. It is what makes us more than biological machines. It is the God within.

To say IT does not exist is to say that God does not exist.

I would agree with that sentiment if I saw it as you do.

One must know of better to choose of better...

Not everyone has the ability...

Even if we do have that ability to recognize that what we once thought is not... it is now what we think that is...

All of which is determined by experience...

Determined being the key word...

If you define WILL as anything other than the GOD within, and apply it to some sort of weak notion or promise that mankind has the freedom to make his own pathetic choices, given to him by the church or society, then you might be able to argue that free will of this definition "does not exist" because you my believe we are programmed only to react to things.

But if you define WILL as the GOD within, that is free and powerful, and expresses ITSELF through you and your body, then you cannot, (or at least I cannot) deny it exists because I KNOW I exist and that I have this power of God within that can direct my personal thoughts and actions above and beyond programming, training, and all other outside influences that only effect the outer manifestation that we recognize as our life.

(Pantheist)

JB

One's perceptual faculties determine the recognition of one's choice(s), Jeannie...

There is a huge difference between choice and free choice...

Apply your notion to Manson, how does that work for ya?

No thought in one's mind is completely free from influence.

How would 'God' inside be recognized as such?

From where did that notion arise to be able to be considered?

The consideration itself was spawned by an outside influence, not of what is inside, but of an outside influence...

not free, either way, though...

How free is this 'God' within all then, when it is within one who does not believe in it's existance?


Can you name one conscious choice made by you in your lifetime which was not determined somehow in some way by experience...

Hopefully you see the point I am making...

then "JennieBean" you are a demi-God because you haven't learned how to use your "Free Will" .."Free Will" means you can turn thought into action without any conseqences from the outside forces ..the outside forces are the laws of physics the laws of soceity and the laws of a God if you believe ...that's why only Gods have "Free Will" because none of these laws applies to a God and why humans only have "Free Choice" which means "No Choice" because you only get to choose from a limited set of options and even those options can be taken from you in an instant depending on the outside forces




since you are controlled by the laws of the outside forces is why these things exist to you because it is the society that make theses laws that constitute what evil is and you have "No Choice" but to assimulate them into your life ...because if you break the laws they are not going to listen to you that you don't believe in evil they are just going to put you in jail ..even if you don't live in a soceity doesn't mean that someone can't impose their beliefs upon you ...

I don't think I implied otherwise. One must have a certain amount of conscious awareness.



Most choices are made unconsciously and automatic. They are not conscious choices, they are automatic and systematic programmed responses and reactions. But these programs are in place for the benefit of the machine (body) and were agreed to ~before spirit incarnated into the earth game. You may not be aware of that agreement, but that was your agreement and the conditions set forth for you adventure into the earth experience. You agreed to these programs that would influence your choices because you need them for survival in this world without your spirit memories.




I don't know what you mean to suggest. Manson was unbalanced and disturbed. He was like a wounded animal reacting the only way he knew how to his twisted perceptions.



Probably true.



I came to my conclusions, yes, via my awareness, experience, knowledge, feeling, etc. The experience comes from all available experience of myself, and all my former incarnations, and of my connections with other thought forms and thinking centers, dreams, etc. The sum total of my experience that I am conscious of and the influence that comes to me from the unconscious.

God is recognized as self. I am that. Self realization, God realization,~~ same thing.



Freedom grows with awareness. The freedom of which I speak is knowing that freedom is the realization of the God within, and that God is free. The little self, still has much to learn to realize complete freedom, in fact, there is no limit to the amount of freedom one can attain.



If you believe you are a slave and there is no freedom, that is your belief. You are imprisoned by that. If you truly are oppressed by another, and try to convince yourself that you are free, you will know you are not free because you will feel a great oppression and sadness in your heart. The soul longs to be free, and so does the inner self long to be free of the mental restrictions placed upon it. It will ultimately break free of each thing that attempt to keep it bound in slavery.




Yes. Off hand I can. Yet I agree that most conscious choices are made from experience of some kind, but some are made from inner knowledge unexplained. I can name more than one that was made completely from an innate knowing. It came from a higher awareness that knew more than I did. I obeyed this higher awareness without question. (I could be alive today because of it.) I don't question the inner god, and I recognize it for what it is. It is my connection to the higher self that is God.



I think I see what you are trying to say, but it seems that you would do not consider any senses other than the five we are said to have, and you do not sense any memory or experience other that from one single lifetime. For me, I sometimes am very aware of a connection of myself to others, and to their experiences, learning from them and basing my choices not only on my personal experiences but from there's also.

Perhaps they are some of my other selves in other incarnations. I don't know. But they are there, guiding me.

Jb.

Irregardless of the guidance I (or anyone) might receive from the "inner God" (call it anything you wish) while you are in the physical incarnation, (while you are cut off from your spirit memories) you are the final authority and you are responsible for any and all choices you do make.

You hear of people who obey the voices in their head who claim that they were following some "gods" instructions when they committed a crime. Who knows if they are delusional or psychotic?
How can one tell the difference? Maybe they can't. But bottom line is, you will bare the responsibility for the choice.

Some have asked me how I could tell the difference between a delusional voice in my head and my own voice of my inner God. I can only say that it is as easy as telling your voice from my own voice. When you speak to me I know it is you. It is not me. Even if it were inside my head, I know.

I have experimented enough with telepathy to have had this experience. I have received other people's voices in my head and known who they were and exactly what they were saying. It was as if they were standing before me in full view. You just know.

Jeannie,

I am focusing on this first part of your response for good reason. I believe it covers the topic completely...



True, and subconscious decisions are not freely made they are determined by what one has internalized and/or habitualized.

Automatic is determined by that which automates.



Before?... before what?

First off, the use of before when speaking of spirit implies a separate existance... not of one...

NOT pantheistic

I would venture to disagree with the notion these programs being in place for the benefit of the machine also...

They are in place as a direct result of what one has lived, and are not necessarily in place for one's benefit, by any measure...




For one to not be aware of an agreement necessitates determination... nothing free about that...

Agreements are made according to what one accepts as truth throughout life Jeannie. Through experience one accepts what is true, according to how well it goes along with that which has been already accepted.




Regarding senses...



Intuition has no logical explanation... it just is...

What about all the times that one thinks to themselves that they have just had a premonition of some sort... but it is never validated?

Does this then disprove it's existance, or just the reliability of one to determine which is genuine?

Oh yeah...Jeannie,

I do not wish to sound as if I disagree with all of your notions concerning what is within one...

Just some of the ways you have described it...

Definitions create boundaries...

If words can describe it, it is not the way...

Wow, still beating this dead horse? I'd think it would be glue by now......lol

Before the individual (existing in some other form) incarnated into a human body.

The human body is a specific design whose DNA contains all of the programing and information needed by that body to exist on instinct and automatic response. (Breathing, heart beating, reaction to fear of falling, need for food, sex drive, etc.)

The individual (soul, spirit or higher self) incarnates into the earth body, which is a biological machine, already equipped with all the information and parts it needs to survive.




The machine, being the body, benefits because it runs automatically. You do not have to think about breathing and you do not have to consciously will your heart to beat.



You may be thinking of something else entirely. This programing is in place at birth.




The agreement was made by the individual before incarnation. It was understood then than the memory would not be available during the lifetime spent in order that each life lived could be experienced individually.



You speak of the physical self who has no memory of the higher self's agreement.




Intuition is indicative of the DNA programing in place.




I don't see how this relates to what I am talking about. Most vision or premonitions can't be validated anyway.



It all depends who you are wanting to prove something to. Yourself or someone else? In the end you decide what is real.

Experience is personal. You don't have to prove it to anyone. If it has taught you something and you are more for it, then it is indeed real, even if it was a dream by anyone else's standards. .

JB

Will is always free. Will is the having the power of SELF DIRECTION. I did not say your actions are without consequences. ALL ACTION has consequences. You are confusing "free will" with "free reign" or lawlessness without consequences. All actions have consequences, but you have free will to take the action anyway. You will also face the consequences of that action.





Your options (and the consquences that go with them) are limited only by your imagination.




Evil, is defined only by religious doctrine. A society might be influenced by that religious doctrine when they make their laws but these laws are not religious doctrine, hence they have nothing to do with what is considered "evil."

Whether or not I choose to obey the laws is my choice. (I do not nor do I ever) have to assimilate them into my life unless I choose to do so. Whether they put me in jail or not is their option.

Example:

If the law is written that I must turn in my neighbor because he is a Jew, and I do not do it, I have broken a law. I broke the law to save the life of the Jew. The law itself is wrong. Yes, they may arrest me. I took that chance because I chose to do the right thing... it was against the law.

"Law" and "sin" are not the same thing.

End of story. If you can't understand that, then I give up trying to explain it to you.

End of story?....I thought we was debating and not that your point of view was the "LAW" of everyone's land ..well you did said this was your ex-husband's method of discussion...it appears he may have left a lasting impression

A debate would require that you have the capability to listen to reason. You just make unreasonable statements and you don't listen to reason. That is futile. You don't even consider what the other person is saying.

P.S.

Do you understand that "sin" is only defined by RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE? I don't think you do. Are you an atheist or not?

If you are, then the word "sin" should mean nothing to you.

helps to be open minded as well and...as you said...listen and not twist things.

if was you that label me as one...unless you can cut and paste where I say anything about me being an atheist....

this a forum of debate but it more like a fairy tale land where everyone just want to come into it closeminded and claim their beliefs as truth and when someone ask them to justifiy it as truth then they have a meltdown because they can't justifiy it as anything more than their fantasy ..