Well I guess you are one
of the minority that trusts
the Administration.

Have you searched the database
and seen any of the false statements?

You would have to be very naive
believe they weren't lying through
their teeth at least some of the time.

All I am saying is there is a difference between knowing someone is lying and proving beyond a reasonable doubt that they were. Also if it wasn't lying under oath I don't know if it was actually illegal.

Or being one of the people
that drank the koolaid and
one that didn't.

911 --- There are a lot of conspiracy statements being thrown around. One is that the terrorists didn’t have the kind of training required for precision piloting of planes into buildings. Out of 19 hijackers, only four had pilot training – the rest were, as the 911 commission put it, simply muscle. Of those four, one already had a pilot license for flying small planes before the plot began. In the year before the attack, the four terrorist pilots spent endless hours devoted to acquiring flight training in preparation for the attacks.

By the time of the attacks, all four had put in the required 250 hours of flight time in order to have commercial pilot licenses and all had attended the basic training for flying the big passenger planes involved in the attacks.

Therefore, any claims that these guys only had “a few hours on a simulator” and couldn’t have possibly hoped to fly the planes are bogus. These guys had more experience flying planes before 911 then most of us had driving cars before our driver’s tests.

It should also be noted that the terrorists didn’t have to do the hard part of flying, which is taking off and landing. Once the planes were in the air, just about anyone could have kept them airborn.

Navigating the planes was also simple. The terrorists knew enough about the planes' navigation systems that all they had to do was punch in the coordinates of their targets – coordinates most likely acquired with the four GPS systems that the terrorists are confirmed to have purchased before the attacks.

The chosen targets of the terrorists were huge. The Twin Towers and the Pentagon could be seen from 50 miles away on the morning of the attacks. So finding them and hitting them was easy. All the terrorists had to do was navigate the planes to their general locations and then fly by sight the last few miles (black boxes recovered afterwards confirmed this).

The WTC buildings were ultra-light modern buildings, featuring a thin, steel outer frame and a light inner core – essentially a giant tube. The 911 planes both came in at angles and struck multiple floors – the 93-99th floors of North Tower and 77-85th floors of the South Tower.

When the planes hit their respective buildings, they did two things –

1) The impacts severed elevator cables and elevator shafts, causing the elevators to fall to the lobby as well as tons of debris to fall down the shafts with them.

2) As anyone who has ever operated a bathtub or a sink knows, if there’s a hole and there’s liquid, the liquid will flow down the hole. When the planes crashed and all that burning jet fuel was suddenly released, some of it drained down the elevator shafts.

So now you’ve got elevators crashing down into the lobby, tons of debris crashing down after them and God knows how much burning jet fuel pouring down as well.

One of the hallmarks of a conspiracy theory is cherry picking information and facts. For example, saying that jet fuel can’t melt steel so it’s impossible for the burning jet fuel to have melted the steel supports of the WTCs and caused them to collapse.

Jet fuel burns at around 2,100F

Steel melts at 2,750F

So if we only use those two facts, then we’ve got a great debunk to the concept of the raging fires causing the WTCs to collapse so fast. However, let’s add some more facts to the mix –

At 750F steel begins to lose strength

At 1,100F steel is reduced to 50% strength

At 1,800F steel is reduced to 10% or less of its actual strength

Jet fuel burns at 2,100F

This means that the raging fires didn’t melt the steel beams – they simply heated up the steel to the point that it was no longer strong enough to support the thousands of tons of building on the floors above it.

The jet fuel burned for an estimated 10 minutes before it was completely consumed. After that, the material of the WTCs provided fuel, burning at temperatures ranging from 1,000-1,100F. As a result, the steel beams were exposed to temperatures hot enough to reduce them to 50% strength for 10 minutes and then 10% strength till they finally gave out.

Also, remember that the impacts of the planes took out multiple floors and multiple support structures, meaning that even before we take into account the steel being weakened by the actual fires, the surviving steel support beams were already bearing more load and stress then they were supposed to support.

As the fires burned, the steel support beams got softer and softer till finally, enough of them gave out that none of the remaining ones could support the weight anymore and the ones that were left all gave out at once.

So what we have here is a classic example of the half truths that conspiracy theorists thrive on. They aren’t lying when they tell you the melting point of steel or the burning temperature of jet fuel, but they aren’t sharing the rest of the temperature information that I shared with you.

Another cherry picking is that cell phones won’t work on airplanes because the plane is too high in the air. This is supposedly proof the phone calls from the planes were faked by the government.

In 2001 the average cell phone tower had a range of 8-10 miles depending on the carrier. Since the planes were in the air, that means that the singles weren’t obstructed by hills, trees, buildings, etc. The hijacked planes all flew around 30-40k feet during the hijackings, meaning that they were within range of the towers. The plane that crashed in PA had an exceptional advantage for reception since it was flying over mostly rural areas where the power on cell towers is jacked up considerably and there are fewer calls to interfere.

Another cherry picking is that wreckage from flight 93 was found several miles away from the plane, indicating that it’d been blown up in mid-air and not crashed.

The biggest chunk of 93 found furthest from the crash site was a chunk of engine located 300 yards downhill – this is normal.

Claims of papers, cloth and other light objects being fished from a lake six miles away were created by someone using Mapquest to determine the driving distance of the lake from the crash site. If you look on a map, the lake is less then a mile from the crash site and the wind was blowing from the crash site towards the lake. So, there is no surprise those items managed to be blown that far.

As for people wondering why there’s no big pile of twisted metal in the impact crater, this is due to the physics of crashes of this type. If the plane power dives into the ground (and local witnesses confirmed it broke the sound barrier during its power dive) then the bulk of the plane disintegrates on impact – this is the norm for crashes like this.

One has to also take into consideration that had flight 93 been taken out in mid-air by a missile or something that the locals would have seen the fireball in the sky (akin to when the fuel tank of the space shuttle exploded).

The crash site would have also been far different. A passenger plane flying at 500 miles per hour doesn’t just fall straight into the ground if it gets hit by a heat seeking missile. The engine or engines that got hit explode and the main body of the plane keeps flying forward and down at an angle, like a thrown ball.

This means that had the plane been shot down via any means, there wouldn’t be a crater. Instead, there’d be a long gouge through the Pennsylvania field and lots of large chunks of debris scattered all over the place.

How can a plane with a 125+ foot wingspan leave only a 16 foot hole in the Pentagon – only a cruise missile would leave that small a hole?

First of all, the 16 foot hole isn’t the entry hole in the outer wall of the Pentagon. That was the size of a hole created in one of the inner rings by the plane’s landing gear skipping and bouncing through the building at 500+ miles per hour. The exterior hole in the Pentagon was around 80-90 feet long before a larger section of the building collapsed.

You see, the Pentagon was built to be a fortress. The building is all solid concrete with steel reinforcements and stone pillars supporting it all measuring 14-22 inches in diameter. So when an aluminum plane crashes into something like that, the solid stone and steel structure wins.

As a result, the plane’s wings folded in on themselves and were forced through a smaller hole than their diameter due to them not being strong enough to damage the steel reinforced stone construction of the Pentagon.

Some people might point out how little damage was done to the windows surrounding the crash point. However, they fail to share with you that after the Oklahoma City bombing, the Pentagon’s windows were replaced with blast proof, reinforced frame windows weighing almost one ton each. These blast proof windows were designed to withstand explosions and impacts far worse then the 911 attacks, which is why almost all of the windows surrounding the impact point survived.

Another issue with the Pentagon damage is that if there had been a missile attack, large quantities of the building would have been blown outward, instead of everything falling inward, since military grade explosives are far more powerful then simple jet fuel.

Now I understand that there are scores, if not hundreds of other conspiracy theories out there about 911, but to sit down and debunk each and every one of them would take a lifetime.

Instead, I’ve focused on the primary conspiracies – the ones that serve as the foundations for all of the other conspiracies. By debunking these myths, none of the other conspiracy theories work anymore.

You also have to remember that the information I’ve provided isn’t top secret. It isn’t referenced from the government. There was no need to do any kind of serious research. In other words, all of the folks spouting the conspiracies can just as easily get this same information.

So if you have any other conspiracies for 911 that don’t depend on any of the myths I’ve debunked here, at least you know now the general tricks the conspiracy people use so you’ll be better equipped to figure out the failings of the other claims.

leahmarie

How dare you complicate this issue with facts, logical thought and reasoning. You should know better!

These things only apply when seeking truth... This thread is not about truth. It is about fiction.

jistme...

Thank you for keeping me straight. Dont' know what in the world got into me.

Wow, that's so sexy. Seriously... It is. (=

This thread won't stop, though, because they'll keep talking... which is their right. I just wish they remembered who defends that right. . . .

No problem. Just don't let it happen again. These boys get awful bent when tipped over by facts.

By the way... welcome to the moron club! I don't know if you noticed that... Thats what they call us, who use factually based logic to discern our reality.

Personally.. My job would be so much easier if I didn't have to stay within the limits of physics and such things like gravity, electronic theory, current technology. I'd be out there selling my newly designed super computer made out of toaster ovens and blenders...

I would think that the hard part would be getting these planes on target. Imagine trying to find your way accross the sky flying at 500 miles an hour, one small error and you overshoot your target...these limited pilots managed to go 3 for 4. I am still waiting for your facts jistme all you have done is go into denial. just a quick reminder b4 you go off into self delusion land...these "piolots" were trained "poorly" to fly small single engined aircraft...it would be like asking a high school kid to drive a truck right after he got his auto liscence.. and drive this truck to california without incident.

Flight Simulator. They were found on the computers of these men, including Moussaui. I've been playing Flight Simulator since the first one came out. They are used by most pilots in training or those who wish they had the gusto to go out and take classes, such as me.

Well there was a 15 yr old run away from Michigan who stole his parents care with his gf and drove it to louisiana .. 1000 miles. I do like how you ignore all the facts everyone else posts though. Tell ya what. If you do flight training, get a license, practice on a flight simulator, then steal a plain and try ramming it into a huge building at 500 mph and prove to me that its just too difficult then I will just have to disagree.

I believe he was referring to something a little more complex than "Mom's car"; a tractor-trailer rig for example?

He is also correct regarding his observation of the "terrorist's" piloting skills. Even the instructor at their flight school said that they were such poor pilots that there was no way they could have flown those jumbo jets, much less performed the aerial acrobatics required to accomplish their alleged feat of destruction.

aerial acrobats? They made a turn or two and pushed the controls downwards.

You say acrobats, like they were doing barrel rolls and such.

Anyone can fly a jumbo jet nowadays, at least in a basic function. All they'd need to know is how to steer, where they were heading, and how to make the plane go fast or slow.

And they did, and crashed into the two WTC Towers and the Pentagon.

Well said sir. Didn't any of you see the crocodile hunter episode where he got to ride in an f-16? They even let him fly for a bit and the pilot was telling him how easy it was to steer once you are airborne.

As for a trailer tractor.. he said truck so I would think he meant truck. He didn't mention anyone learning how to operate a rig. If a kid was taught to operate one though I don't see why they wouldnt be able to.

I meant "alleged" as applies to "their" identities as "terrorists", and role as pilots, as popularized in the media.
A high level of piloting skill may not have been required at the WTC (though I've read statements by professional pilots to the contrary), but it most certainly was at the Pentagon.
Those jets respond sluggishly at best, and it would be like trying to thread a needle to do what they supposedly did considering their skill level. In my opinion (and I'm nowhere near alone) those planes were piloted by experts, remote controlled, or had their autopilot modified in-flight by someone who knew exactly how to bring them to target.
The Pentagon incident is extremely controversial, as there are many unanswered questions & inconsistencies in the type, location, and intensity of the damage physically observed at the site, compared with what should logically be present. Don't forget dozens of conflicting eyewitness reports (not an issue at the WTC).

I meant an 18 wheeled semi.

A Boeing 767 does not handle, in any way, shape, form or fashion, like an F-16. Comparison: Luxury yacht vs. sport boat. I've flown a 737, an F-4, and an AirCobra; how about you?

I'll let you conspiracy
nuts debate about why
9/11 came about, and why.

What I want to know is:

What about Zacharias Moussawi,
the Al-Quaeda operative whose
current residence is the
high-security Supermax
prison in Florence, CO?

He attended a flight school
in Eagan, MN to learn to
fly a Boeing 747 jumbo jet
until a flight instructor
got suspicious and turned
him in.

If 9/11 was plotted by
our government and not
Al-Quaeda, how do you
explain Moussawi?

Just how much do you understand about how our government really operates?

Pick up a copy of the book "The Shell Game" by Steve Alten. You'd be surprised about quite a few "facts" that Mr. Alten has brought to light by way of this new book of his. If you read then you will not view the neocons the same ever again.