To accept one answer to such questions, is to determine that one believe holds more validity than another. THAT is a judgment. You can not get around it – that is LOGICAL, that is RATIONAL. To choose to close your mind to other just as likely options is choosing to judge those other options worthless and those who believe them ‘unworthy’.

As an atheist, I simply deny that a god, fitting the descriptions of most mainstream belief structures does not exist. So I choose not to follow any particular belief system, rather I would keep my mind open to all the possibilities, and at the moment, it all seems pretty random to me. This is why I choose to review all that science has to offer. For those who think that Creationism holds the more valid answers, than please fill me in on a logical course of study – that does not include any deity or deities with magical powers. (for this is not what I would want to teach any child, and certainly not a whole society of them.)

Since we have strayed so far off topic, here are some things to consider, for those who ‘judge’ their religion to be the only answer. Most questions seem to be with regards to animation. What started it all, how did the universe becomes animated, get set in motion? What elements had to be introduced, and where did they come from? Exactly, what was required for all the ‘right’ elements to come together, within the animation process to form the kinds of ‘living’ three dimensional forms that exist?

In response to these questions there is the theory that only intelligent design could have had the ability, foresight, and power to create, oversee, and continue to be an inspirational and creative force. This theory is a belief only, at this time. There is no way to disprove or prove the validity of such beliefs.

However, we can discuss what considerations we might extend to the theory of intelligent design. But first are we really discussing ‘intelligent’ design? The very idea would, logically, lead to an entity, or to a collective intelligence, that may or may not consist of individual characteristics or tendencies.

Either way, if intelligent design is the creative force than we must conclude that such intelligence, is still equated to ‘entity or entities’ that are, in some way, limited or confined by whatever forces contain it or that it is contained in. In other words, we could not assign to such a being or beings the capability of ‘creating’ simply by the process of thought alone. Unless, of course, all we are and all we precieve and all we think are merely illusion. But that idea was dispelled by philosophy.

Is there any here who would deny that there is movement and motion within and throughout the universe that we know? Is there any here who would deny that we and all we know are given validity through our senses and that this validity is inherent natures of our dimentional mass and form and are affected and driven by this motion?

These things alone must mean that IF intelligent design is the motivator than that intelligence could not have created the raw materials through thought alone. But because those who believe in a deity as the ‘intelligence” behind the design theory, then magic is attributed to that deity.

How can we prove or disprove magic? There is no science that relates to the physical world and the properties that are inherent in the environment of the physical that can begin to delve into a logical, quantifiable study, if the object of study is magic.

Therefore, those who seek to “teach” intelligent design in schools must be willing to dismiss their belief, when that belief lies in a deity whose power is to create and control by thought and magic alone. Of course if those who believe in a deity as a creative/intelligent designer relinquish such beliefs in lieu of teaching a theory of intelligent design, then what exactly would be taught? Simply put, we do not have the answers, scientifically, to disprove that our very being was not “originated” through a series of intelligent interventions. DONE: end of lesson.

Now, what we do have to teach is what we have discovered. I think most, within this post, are intelligent enough to agree that evolution does exist, at least at some level. We know that a virus can mutate, we know that humans can form natural immunities; we know this happens through micro-evolution. We also know that there are multitudes of extinct species and many links that would indicate that change has occurred leading to continuation of life through that change, and not through continued and immediate changes from the intelligent designer/s. AGAIN we are, as logical beings, making assumptions to think this way, but not without sufficient evidence to keep this train of logic in the face of unknowns.

If we truly believed that our existence was only quantified by the allowance of some all powerful intelligent designers, than why would we ever consider medicine? What good is there in any science when we are totally and ‘absolutely’ at the mercy, as individuals and as a species, to the whim of an all controlling, other intelligence?

So science carries on with quantifiable knowns and theories, based on our questions of the unknown and often using assumptions that have been proven, through uncounted experiments, to be accepted as facts.

So this is what we teach, this is how we get the answers to continue to grow, to be healthy, to assure the continuance of our species. If we believed only in magic, we would surely succumb to sickness, starvation and the elements, soon enough , to put an end to any questions we might have.

These things I present can not be denied, not in a world where all ,but a handful of the most extremely ardent magical deity believers, partake of all the useful health equivalents that science has put at our disposal. Look in your medicine cabinet, and why is health care so vigorously sought at the federal level, who would not take an ailing family member to the emergency room?

Believe in whatever you will, but teach our children that, which has the greatest capability of advancing and maintaining the continuance of the species. Such teaching can not be without ethics, it can not be without conscience but it can not include magic.

So I contend that all this arguing can only be to support a belief system. Or the arguments would contain the “science” behind HOW and WHAT to teach that would add to the progression and the answers to support “with scientific knowns” a course of study with regards to ‘intelligent design”. In the end this is just another battle of deity belief systems versus the science that conflicts with those beliefs.

In essence a loosing battle. But we will continue to fight it, because some want all the answers, without any work, they have stopped attempting to see to the continuance of the species, because they beleive they will not have a choice anyway, when their magical God, detemines it is the end.

And some are willing to seek and work hard to better the conditions to allow for the continuance of the species, even those who partake of all that science has to offer, to spite their faith that only a deity has ultimate control.

Unfortunately I have to agree that a lot of the comments from some of those claiming to be Christians are purely examples of what makes Christians look bad to those who do not believe. Cutting someone down and name calling is not very Christian like and is just plain rude and ignorant quite frankly. No wonder some have the disrespect and unbelief that is expressed here. I don't claim to know everything about the bible or what Jesus may or may not have said. I can however tell you what my opinion or my interpretation and beliefs are, but don't feel that it would really clarify much of anything being questioned here and would probably be futile. I can tell you good and bad definitely exists and arguing over whether or not God and Jesus exist or who they may or may not be is probably not going to prove a thing without concrete proof to back it up with some people here. So I will not attempt to persuade you because you are still going to want proof that no one can actually present you with. No one alive on earth now is perfect nor can they really prove much of what happened before they existed. It can sometimes be hard to prove things that are going on now. I had a hard time proving my husband was having an affair but I know he had one. What matters is what happens to your soul after you die as well as what happens to it while you are in the here and now. The main gist of the bible is to try and teach us all to be good to each other and it tries to show us how to do it. The golden rule. It also teaches us that we must try not to sin and make atonement for it when we do. It also tries to teach us that we have a flesh body and a spirit body. It also teaches us that after we die we are returned to our creator to be judged to decide where we will spend eternity based on what we have done with our lives. Have we been caring, loving, and good or have we been the opposite? Do we give a care one way or the other what we do and who we hurt and why? Do we want to reunite in eternity with our loved ones or do we not believe or care?
I can tell you this and whether you believe it or not is up to you, but life after death is very real. I know this because I died for several minutes as a child. I fell out of a row boat when I was about 3 years old. My maternal grandparents, parents and sister were all there when it happened and can tell you it happened. After I breathed in the water I saw fish as I was on my way down to the bottom of the lake. The next thing I saw was my own body lying face down sprawled on the bottom of the lake. I was a toddler but I was bright enough to know if I could see my body like that I was definitely dead. Even though it was a bright sunny day I was uncontrollably ascending up in the sky toward the brightest light I have ever seen, but I could see everything going on below me and hear everything that was being said and done by my family. I was not afraid of what was happening to me but I was trying to talk and tell my family not to cry or worry because I was ok. They of course could not hear me. It was as though I was watching a movie sort of as I was floating upward very quickly into the bright light. My mind or soul was still functioning and very much aware of what was happening and very much alive. I saw my mother screaming and panicking for she had seen me fall in and couldn't swim and therefore couldn't help me. My grandmother and sister were freaking out in the boat looking down into the water where I had fallen but neither could swim or help me either. My grandfather was on his way down the embankment with his fishing equipment that he threw down and he was tearing off his clothes as he was running toward the lake with my dad right behind him. My grandfather found me first and I saw him take my body off of the bottom of the lake and swim toward my dad who helped us get out of the water. My grandfather took my body by the feet and started hitting me on the back. Suddenly the water and some blood fell out of my lungs on the ground and immediately I was coughing and my soul was back inside of my body as it had been before. Unfortunately I never saw God or Heaven but I can assure you I was headed upwards. So if you think you will just die and be no more I think you are probably very wrong. I doubt at that point in my life I had committed much sin and was still fairly innocent as far as that aspect of it goes but it was quite a memorable experience. I know this doesn't prove anything about this particular subject in the forum but I just felt like it was somehow important to some of the readers here. I know people have their own beliefs and theories about God and everything else in life too, but all I am trying to convey here is that we are all better off treating all people with respect even if we don't agree. That is the way I see it and if someone doesn't see things the way you do you don't have to get mad about it. Anger only hurts the person possessing it the most. You can choose to be angry or try and respect the other persons view while trying to express your own in a civil manner and you are both better off. Name calling and criticism are not the right way to express or defend your beliefs about God nor will it explain to a non believer why they should consider your arguments to be valid, true or correct period. Even though I am a believer I refuse to express myself or my beliefs to someone in a manner that is that unattractive because it only makes you look bad. Trying to force someone to believe is just wrong and the manner you do it in speaks volumes.

One thing that far too many people think is that just because there is life after death this implies that Christian mythology is correct. It does not. On the contrary, there are many very spiritual people who do not believe in Christian mythology.



It’s because of these kinds of things that many people do not believe what the Bible has to say. It’s not that they don’t want to believe it. It’s simply because it makes no sense.

The idea that the creator(s) of this universe would bother preserving human egos for the sole purpose of torturing them for all eternity is utterly absurd. What purpose would it serve?

It certainly wouldn’t be to teach anyone a lesson because an eternity of damnation for a fleeting speck of existence would hardly teach anyone anything other than the creator(s) of this universe are totally unreasonable demons.

The only other possible explanation would be that the creator(s) of the universe are sadists and would enjoy knowing that these souls are being tortured eternally. Again, this concept makes not sense and would mean that the creator(s) are nothing more than demonic sadists.

In short, the idea of eternal damnation is a farce. It’s a made up idea to put the fear of god into the masses to keep them under control. No genuine creator would be so demonic.

So the mere existence of a spiritual world or spiritual experiences does not support Christianity as a religion. There are many other religions that could easily take credit for those same experiences. Moreover, none of man’s religions may actually be correct. This is more likely the case.

It’s not a matter of either Christianity being correct or else there’s no spiritual world. Unfortunately far too many people do indeed feel that way. But there is absolutely no reason to be so limited in our thinking.

For me, the idea that our creator came to earth and had men nail him to a pole to save our souls is the most absurd notion I can possibly imagine. If that’s the best solution that our creator(s) could come up with they’d have to be pretty damn lame IMHO.

The fact that I totally reject Christian mythology as being absurdly unrealistic does not mean that I denounce our spiritual essence. On the contrary, I don't see how we can be anything other than spiritual. But our spiritual existence is far beyond anything that the creators of Christianity were even capable of dreaming of. Christianity is seriously a petty religion riddled with asburdities IMHO.

Hi yzrabbit, I'm new here and am glad to meet you. I'm a curious guy like youself and have pondered what would be my last words facing death. I think they would be along the same lines like 'Oh my GOD'! What would yours be?

Yes If It was just plain old me being crucified. I'm sure there would be a lot of wailing.

The idea of eternal damnation is absurd for someone who does not deserve to be there. There is another possibility that maybe you haven't considered and does make sense. That is to consider that souls are not condemned to eternal torture for the sole purpose of torturing them or lording power over them; but that they are simply being punished or singled out for the evil they've done to others by breaking the commandments and then refusing to atone for it.

After judgment they are simply blotted out of existence and die a second death or in other words are denied eternal life in a sin free environment. This is only if they still refuse to atone for their sins. Those that have truly hurt others deserve to be punished if they have no remorse and only God has the right to decide this. Metaphorically this is why I believe he is referred to as a vengeful God because he is taking up for the children he loves not because he is a sadist or demonic.

The reason I say this is because that is how I interpret judgment to be. God getting rid of the souls that don't deserve to be in the eternal life with him which is without sin. i.e. The serial murderer who is never convicted on earth for the evil he/she has done in their life. Since God knows all that they have done as well as how many they have hurt he is the only one worthy of being the final judge. At the judgment it is revealed what the evil soul has done and gotten by with. If at this point they still are not sorry for their sins they are simply denied eternal life being with the others who do regret their sins. Punishing someone who is demonic or evil is in no way labeling God as a sadist but as a vengeful God or parent who is punishing their child for refusing to regret their evil ways.

It is in no way worshiping an evil deity that just enjoys scaring people into believing in him and the commandments that he selfishly wants us to follow. There is only 10 things he asks us not to do and if you think about them all you can see many reasons why he asks us not to do these things. It is also pretty plain why the punishment for someone unremorseful for doing these things would be validated by denying them eternal life in a sin free existence. Not an evil deity or reprobate that enjoys torture or lording his power over us.

Maybe we can make it clear to you this way iamgeorgiagirl. Would you back the idea of taking the worst person we have today on death row, and putting him on a spit and slowly roasting him just to before he is dead. Then take him to a doctor that can heal him without any painkillers. In fact using the most painful methods possible. Then when he is strong enough again it starts all over roasting him over a fire. Would you back that Idea?

Well, I’m certainly not worried about that. I never do any of those things anyway. No need to ask. I have no desire to do them to being with. To me they are just common sense. I guess I’m just a natural saint.

I was thinking more in terms of truly evil people. Why bother punishing them? What’s the point to it? Why not just let them die? Sounds like this is what you are suggesting happens anyway. But if that’s the case then where did the concept of hell and eternal damnation come from in the first place?

I don’t need to believe in a God to be a good person. That comes natural to me. If I knew with absolute certainty that there is indeed a judgmental God I wouldn’t need to change my behavior one iota from how I already behave now anyway. So for me, religion is not important for morals. It’s not what drives my morality.

In fact, I would think it to be a pretty sad thing if the only reason a person was being good is because they had a fear of punishment or were seeking a reward in heaven. It seems to me that such a person wouldn’t be genuine. I mean, if their genuine desire is to do evil and they are only refraining from it because of fear of punishment or the carrot of reward wouldn’t that be pretty pathetic?

Who would want to go to a heaven that’s full of a bunch of evil people who are just restraining themselves from doing what they truly desire to do????

The whole concept just seems weird to me.

If God just wants people who are naturally good why even bother with religion at all? Just let them live and pick the ones who are naturally nice at the end. Most of them will probably turn out to be atheists anyway.

yzrabbit, did you even read the passage out of the bible?

Psalm 22:1 is addressed: "to the cheif musician: set to the tune of Aijeleth Hashshahar (the hind of the morning dawn). A Psalm of DAVID. -Amplified Bible, pub by Zondervan.
DAVID.
DAAAVID.
Not Jesus, DAVID.

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?.."

Hey Kiwi!!! How's it hangin'?

argh my arch nemisis; jess the aussie, we meet again...

Can't keep a good aussie down....


Nor forsake them...

too true, feisty feisty aussies.

Oh no yzrabbit1 I honestly don’t think a loving creator could do that to anyone. The way I understand Hell or eternal damnation to be is to simply die a final death and exist no more and not be allowed to participate in a sinless existence eternally, not a sadistic torture. I think God gives us the chance to atone for sins all the way up to judgment day. To treat anyone in the way you are describing is just horrible even if they treated someone else that way I just couldn’t imagine God doing anything like that. I think people who perceive the bible speaking of Hell as an actual eternal fire pit of torture are just misinterpreting the verses used to express what they believe Hell will be like. It is just the final death of a soul into non existence or shall we say simply not allowing them to defile Heaven with sin. The word hell is used to describe the final death I believe not a horrific torture of someone’s soul only an end to an evil soul.

Abra I truly think it is wonderful that you have the common sense not to break any of the commandments without using religion as a basis for keeping them. but in general most people break them at one time or another unfortunately. I myself have told a few whoppers, I have also committed fornication and have been jealous of other people. If God had not given us a way to be forgiven for these things when we truly felt bad over doing them anyway then he would be a very cruel God. Some people would feel so guilty and worthless that they would probably want to jump off a tall bridge over the water and breathe in the water. It wasn't a bad way to go.

As far as why God punishes others who do bad things and have no remorse for it. I honestly believe he does that by not allowing them to exist anymore not by literally torturing them. They are just put to a second and final death at that point and no longer have a chance for eternal life.

If I thought that I would not be able to spend eternity in a sin free environment with other people that I love. I may have jumped off that bridge a time or two myself. But I just know that someday I will be in that sin free environment with my loved ones along with God.

I love God not simply because he created me but because he is always there for me. He has given me a chance to make amends for my sins. The concept of eternal damnation in a Hell pit of fire is a misinterpreted perception of the metaphoric way that parts of the bible are written in I believe.

I have to agree that it would be a pretty sad thing if the only reason a person was being good would be because of their fear of punishment or the fact that they were just seeking some reward. Most people I don't think really have a desire to do evil either but sometimes things happen in life that motivates people to do evil. I personally have lied many times just to save myself from getting into trouble or from simply looking bad to other people. Stupid I know, but true.

And as for the question who would want to go to a Heaven that is full of a bunch of evil people who are just restraining themselves from what they truly desire to do? I have to say I personally wouldn't want to be in a place like that either. Actually God will not allow that. There will be no evil or evil people allowed there. They will be put to a second and final death after they are judged. Heaven will be filled with people that are either saints, innocent from sin such as children, or former mentally disabled people who can't comprehend much, and people that have made atonement for their sins and asked God to forgive them.

And finally God doesn't just want people who are naturally good there. There would be very few people there if that were the case. He is happiest when someone who doesn't believe finally sees the light and requests to be there, or when someone like me who has asked to be forgiven from my sins makes atonement and asks to be there.

He is called a shepherd because if he has 100 sheep to care for and one runs away he is going to leave the other 99 to look for that one that he feels he can save and he feels triumphantly happy when he saves that one.

I believe there will be a lot of former Atheists in Heaven and they will be eternally glad to be there. Imagine all the beauty and love found in this world along with no evil, illness or pain. Sounds like pure Heaven to me. I also look forward to seeing my grandfather and others that I love that I know will be there too. It will be the way God intended for the world to be in the first place. The evil ones will be blotted from our minds and we will remember them no more.

Someone thinks too hard. I just read the topic. The Bible (knowing this is where you got that quote from) is supposed to just be accepted as written. So easy a child should be able to understand. If you cannot grasp this easy information, then perhaps the Bible is not for you. You shouldn't really make it out to be a science. It's faith. Either you have it or you don't.

But, there's the rub. Evidence indicates that the 'Bible' is a hodgepodge of historically unreliable stories, questionable testimonies, common mythologies, fables, legends, and propaganda that was written, redacted, interpolated, translated and mistranslated over many centuries by unknown authors.

Assuming you are referring to the English translation, the text is far from "easy" because the information is ambiguous, inconsistent and contradictory (if you read the words at face-value and under the literary and historical context it was written in).

If it's so easy a child should understand it, then why the need for Christian apologists, and thousand page encyclopedias of biblical apologetics/difficulties to convince people that the 'Bible' makes perfect sense since it's the inspired, infallible, inerrant, literal word of a perfect being?

Am I the only one who finds that incredibly ironic?

Those were good points iamgeorgiagirl, jess & theemachine. as for as for my post, I guess a misdirection is avoidance. Some may find it hard to answer and for those who find understanding the bible might ought seeking other ancient manuscripts & give those interpretations. OF course, if you need someone to help you with the meaning of what's in the bible, there are many here that would be glad to help you.

For instance one of those ancient texts you could look for would be the teachings of the Buddha to see that he did the Sermon on the mount speech about 500 years before the birth of Jesus

So you're buddist down grading Christians. How well did you read that?