I don't think your ability to smell baked bread is a crutch, I don't think your ability to look at your kids play is a crutch. I think if you ignore all the beautiful and wondrous things God put around you and just look at one book. You are not doing anyone justice.

Your post is a straw man. What Christians here ignore all other aspects of life and just read the Bible? We aren't even discussing the subject of enjoying life. Like Repunzel and KalamazooGuy87 were saying, we worship God in faith, not by using our six senses. Your senses allow you to enjoy the world around you, but they tell you nothing of the invisible God.

I agree they will tell you NOTHING of the invisible God. So I hope that will put a end to you trying to prove he exist. Or prove that he created anything cause our senses can tell us NOTHING of this God.

I've consistantly stated that we cannot prove or disprove God's existance. It's a useless exercise. I think what confused you is that I will correct those who present false information about the Bible or Christian beliefs. That's simply my sense of fair-play at work.

gee yz rabbit...I feel so sorry for you...
my opinion is that you really assume so much about others...
based on non'existent information that you alone fabricate...

Well being that is said, "Practice What You Preach".. What? Oh yes, this means
"they submit to your dogma. It's hardly a respectable or virtuous practice." - no opinions in debate class =)



Kal,

I don't follow. Please elaborate. Thanks.

Proof Jesus is God

Kiss my shinny metal but!



1) God is omniscient: God knows all things. He knows the hearts and
thoughts of men. He knows the past and the future. He knows the number
of grains of sand, and the number of the stars. There is nothing He
does not know.

Christ is omniscient:
? 'But Jesus did not commit himself to them, because he knew all men,
and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was
in man' (John 2:24,25).
? He knew the whereabouts of Nathaniel: 'Nathaniel said to him,Where
do you know me from? Jesus answered and said to him, Before Philip
called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you' (John 1:48).
? He knew the plot of Judas: 'Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen
you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spoke of Judas Iscariot the son
of Simon' (John 6:70,71).



He knew the heart of the Pharisees: 'And Jesus knew their thoughts'
(Matthew 12:25). 'But when Jesus perceived their thoughts' (Luke
5:22). 'But he knew their thoughts' (Luke 6:8).
? He knew the history of the Samaritan woman (John 4:16–29).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

2) God is worshiped: Only God can rightly be worshiped. 'For you shall
worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous
God' (Exodus 34:14).Whenever a man was worshiping another man, he
was immediately rebuked: 'And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met
him, and fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. But Peter took him up,
saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man' (Acts 10:25,26). See also Acts
14:11–15 where Paul refuses worship. Even the angels refuse worship of
men: 'I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me
these things. Then said he to me, See you do it not: for I am your fellowservant,
and of your brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the
sayings of this book: worship God' (Revelation 22:8,9).

Christ is worshiped:
? He was worshiped by the wise men: 'And when they were come into
the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell
down, and worshiped him' (Matthew 2:11).
? He was worshiped by the leper: 'And behold, there came a leper and
worshiped him' (Matthew 8:2).
? He was worshiped by the ruler: 'While he spoke these things to them,
behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshiped him' (Matthew 9:18).
? He was worshiped by the angels: 'And again, when he brought in the
first begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship
him' (Hebrews 1:6).
There are many other examples of people worshiping Christ. At no
time did He rebuke them. He accepted their worship.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

3) God forgives sin: Only God can forgive sin, because all sin is against a
holy God. No man can truly forgive sin. 'Who can forgive sins but God
only?' (Mark 2:7).

Christ forgives sin:
? 'When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son,
your sins be forgiven you' (Mark 2:5).
? 'And he said to her, Your sins are forgiven' (Luke 7:48).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



4) God creates: Only God can truly create. To form something where before
was nothing takes an act of God.Man can refashion or reform something
that already exists, but only God can create.


Christ creates:
? 'For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in
earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him'
(Colossians 1:16).
? 'All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made
that was made' (John 1:3).


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


5) God saves: 'Salvation belongs unto the LORD' (Psalm 3:8).



Christ saves:
? 'For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost' (Matthew
18:11).
'For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save
them' (Luke 9:56).
'For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved' (John 3:17).
'If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I
came not to judge the world, but to save the world' (John 12:47).


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Where the bible Says Jesus is God

Isaiah 7:14; 9:6; John 1:1,14;
20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8;
2 Peter 1:1; Matthew 1:23;
1 John 5:20


Genesis 1:1
Deuteronomy
Psalm 45:6,7



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God says his name Is IAM so does Jesus


John 8:24; 8:58; 18:4–6
Exodus 3:14
Deuteronomy 32:39


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God is the Alpha Omega and so is Jesus :)

Revelation 1:17,18; 2:8
Isaiah 41:4; 48:12
Revelation 1:8


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God is lord Jesus is lord


Isaiah 45:23--every knew shall bow.


Matthew 12:8
Acts 7:59,60; 10:36
1 Corinthians 2:8; 12:3
Philippians 2:10,11

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jesus and God are the Saviour
“I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me,' (Isaiah 43:11).
So Jeus the Saviour or not? so the only way to harmonize this verse is to understand that Jesus is God
Matthew 1:21; Luke 2:11;
John 4:42; 2 Timothy 1:10;
Titus 2:13
Isaiah 43:3; 43:11; 63:8
Luke 1:47
1 Timothy 4:10

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus are kings
Revelation 17:14; 19:16
Psalm 95:3; Isaiah 43:15;
1 Timothy 6:14–16

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God and Jesus /Judges ...

John 5:22
2 Corinthians 5:10
2 Timothy 4:1
Genesis 18:25
Deuteronomy 32:36
Psalm 50:4,6; 75:7; 96:13

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus / light

John 1:4,9; 3:19; 8:12; 9:5
2 Samuel 22:29; Psalm 27:1


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jesus and God / rocks
Romans 9:33; 1 Corinthians
10:3,4; 1 Peter 2:4–8
Deuteronomy 32:3,4; 2 Samuel
22:32


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus are Redeemer
Acts 20:28; Ephesians
Hebrews 9:12
Psalm 130:7,8; Isaiah 43:1;
48:17; 49:26


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Gods and Jesus are our righteousness

Jeremiah 23:6; Romans 3:21
Isaiah 45:24




++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Jesus and God described as a husband



Isaiah 54:5; Hosea 2:16
Matthew 25:1; Mark 2:18,19;
2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus described as a Shepard

Genesis 49:24; Psalm 23:1;
80:1; 95:7
John 10:11,16; Hebrews 13:20;
1 Peter 2:25; 5:4

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus described as the creator

Genesis 1:1; Job 33:4; Psalm
95:6; Isaiah 40:28; 43:1;
Acts 4:24
John 1:2,3,10; Colossians
1:15–18; Hebrews 1:1–3



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus described as the giver of life


Genesis 2:7; Deuteronomy
32:39; 1 Samuel 2:6
John 5:21; 10:28; 11:25



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus described as forgiver of sins

Exodus 34:6,7; Nehemiah 9:17;
Daniel 9:9
Matthew 9:2; Acts 26:
Colossians 2:13; 3:13


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



God and Jesus described as Omnipresent

Psalm 139:7–12; Proverbs 15:3
Matthew 18:20; 28:20;
Ephesians 3:17; 4:10



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



God and Jesus described Omniscient

1 Kings 8:37–39; Jeremiah
17:9,10
Matthew 9:4; 11:27; Luke 5:4–6;
John 2:25; 16:30; 21:17;
Acts 1:24




++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God and Jesus described as Omnipotent

Isaiah 40:10–31; 45:5–13;
Revelation 19:6
Matthew 28:18; Mark 1:29–34;
John 10:18; Jude 24

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



God and Jesus described as pre-existent

Genesis 1:1
John 1:1,2; 3:13,31,32; 16:28;
17:5


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus described as Eternal

Psalm 102:26,27; Habakkuk 3:6
Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 8:58



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


God and Jesus described as Immutable
Malachi 3:6; James 1:17
Hebrews 13:8


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



God and Jesus described receivers of worship
Matthew 4:10; John 4:24;
Revelation 7:11; 19:4; 19:10
John 9:38; Philippians 2:10,11;
Hebrews 1:6
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Who gets the glory?
Isaiah 42:8; 48:11
Hebrews 13:21; John 17:5

So whats more logical? that Something came from nothing? that the big bang was un-caused...


or that a Creation has a Creator..

Science teaches that time,space and matter had a Begining and your saying that these laws and creations don't have a law giver, or a creator?


sorry but it's more logical to believe that creation has a creator, and paintings have painters then to believe that something doe's not need a cause.

The way described in words is not the real way.
Words cannot describe it.
Nameless, it is the source of creation.
Named, it is the mother of all things.

To see the way the observer must be motiveless.
Those with selfish motives see only
the surface, not the innermost depths.

These two kinds of observers look alike,
but differ in the insight of their observations.
They look alike because they are both human.
Within humanity is the key to the door of creation.

According to M Theory the big bang was caused by colliding universes. Doesn't change my belief in creation or God, but interesting regardless;^]

These kind of arguments are totally pointless. There are many concepts of the spirit. The argument that there must be a creator and therefore Christianity must be right is the feeble argument that can be made. Such an argument would support Greek Mythology with equal merit.

Maybe people who have experiences that they deem to be mystical often run to Christianity with the naïve belief that if there’s a God then Christianity must be the correct religion. That kind of thinking only shows how limited their ability to think really is.

I have no problem believing in a spiritual world. But to believe that the Bible has anything to do with it is a totally different ballgame. The idea that the creator of this universe would need to incarnate himself as a man for the express purpose of being nailed to pole to save men from their sinful ways is the most absurd notion I can imagine. In what way would God having been nailed to a pole ‘pay’ for man’s sins???

An all-powerful, all-wise, all-compassionate God couldn’t think of a better solution????

Think about it for just a minute.

An all-powerful God in a constant battle with an evil angel that he rejected from his heavenly kingdom????

You talk about what is ‘logical’ to believe, but have you ever really thought about how ‘logical’ it would be for a supposed all-powerful, all-wise, and all-compassionate creator of this universe to play such stupid games???

Keep all humans in the dark and let them fight with each other about what to believe????

Only men could have written the perverted stories that are told in the Bible. They couldn’t possibly be from an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God. Such a God would be more petty than many humans.

If you apply ‘logic’ to the mythology, you’ll have no choice but to reject it all. Such a God would not only be illogical, but it would be pretty pathetic as well. All it seems to care about is having people worship it and serve it. An egotistical God????

And you claim that it’s ‘logical’ to believe that the creator of the universes plays these stupid petty games?

It might be ‘logical’ for you, but it’s totally illogical as far as I’m concerned. I know humans who have better morals and behavior that the God described in the Bible.

Amen thank you so very very much

Praise the Lord

thanks turtle poet


My feelings and belief exactly

hehe, no big thing, just spreading the knowledge;^]

and i am just backing you up


i appreciate you and your presence

and of course..my good buddy Spider too

God Bless You and thank you for your positive

and very poignant, powerful, spiritual feedback



and i am also sending love & peace to

Abracadabra and to Yz Rabbit

and to all of the other non-believers

Rapunzel...!!!!!

non-believers??????

Wow.... just because the same beliefs are not held does not make anyone a non-believer!!!

Perhaps you are being a tad disingenuous with Rapunzel here. She is not claiming people incapable of believing. It is a fairly accepted terminology to state that those who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ - savior of the world by taking on their sins on the cross, the incarnate "God the son" of the trinity, ressurected on the third day, are "un-believers". It is where the phrase came from. That would be like saying someone who isn't "gay" is incapable of being happy.

Dear Creative Soul,


I am very sorry that you misunderstood my pure intentions

I certainly did not mean to offend you in any way

I am just now coming back right now, because I just noticed

that ElJay had posted and I wanted to read what he had to say.

I truly had no idea that my comment would be received in such
a way, as for you to think that i was accusing all other people

who participated in this thread , to be non believers of
any type of creator...i could have worded it differently ...

ElJay is absolutely correct in his defense of my comment
thank you so much ElJay
You are postitively amazing


You are so perceptive and so kind & thoughtful
to even think of responding in my defense...

you could have left me to fend entirely for myself


and yet you handled this is such a delicate & intuitive,
noble, polished and extremely tactful way ...
i am humbled & exceptionally flattered and so very
appreciative of your care & consideration...



It is true that Christians use the term " Non-Believers "
to describe any one who does not believe
that Jesus Christ is Lord....
that his Flesh transformed to pure Light,
into pure Spirit at the split second in time
known as the " Resurrection "
and that He sits
at the right hand of the Father
He is part of the Holy Trinity,
the Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit


I will bid you adieu

sending love and hugs , peace and joy

to all of the people on this thread

and on this site



I am extending a broken arrow of peace