Well, just for the record, in my mind the "weeds" and "flowers" were metaphors for ideas, not people.

Just wanted to make that clear.

I have no desire to choke out any people.

Yes Abra I know

All expressions of life ... not necessarily shared by you or I ... but valid in their expression nonetheless...

"The highest good of society" does not really convey any specific meaning. In general religious doctrines are an attempt to propogate "the highest good of society" beyond the present. Whatever the religion. Whatever the doctrine. In general. So they fail. Sue (or is that pray?).

Gen 25:20 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife

not married yet

and when Abraham lives to be 175 then even at that ratio

say ave live is 84 (a high number i think)

then that would double ones life

so considered almost an adult at 18 and an adult at 21

i think you could say he qualified as an older child

or a young man

could go either way using the math

--------------

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

25:1-10 All the days, even of the best and greatest saints, are not remarkable days; some slide on silently; such were these last days of Abraham. Here is an account of Abraham's children by Keturah, and the disposition which he made of his estate. After the birth of these sons, he set his house in order, with prudence and justice. He did this while he yet lived. It is wisdom for men to do what they find to do while they live, as far as they can.
Abraham lived 175 years;
just one hundred years after he came to Canaan; so long he was a sojourner in a strange country. Whether our stay in this life be long or short, it matters but little, provided we leave behind us a testimony to the faithfulness and goodness of the Lord, and a good example to our families. We are told that his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him. It seems that Abraham had himself brought them together while he lived. Let us not close the history of the life of Abraham without blessing God for such a testimony of the triumph of faith.

from

http://mhc.biblecommenter.com/genesis/25.htm

I think that many people in this thread fail to realize that "secularism" is considered a religion. Well, if this be the case, then why should those who are secular be able to legistlate their beliefs over the beliefs of others?

Because those that are secular have had to live by the archaic laws of religion over their own beliefs.

"... God's gardener,
cultivates humility, vulnerability, and love of others,

... and harvests true spirit for all!!!"

Beautiful and most thoughtful metaphor Abra ! Nothing to add, nothing to take away!

Displaces the ego, touches the heart, and let's the soul shine of it's brilliant light!

Ironically, it is from Abra that the true spirit of Christianity; Jesus's fibre, shines.

The letter of the Bible in the mouth of Pharisees will always lack the 'SPIRIT', always lack the essence.

The spirit always comes from the poetry of the heart, not the judgment of the head!


Thanks for your spirit Abra.


:)

"... should our laws reflect our religious beliefs?",

Asking the question is answering it.

Religion is the anti-thesis of democracy.

Laws reflecting our religious beliefs is not only an oxymoron, it reperesents all that is barbaric and tribal about human beings in our times.

Democratic laws grant religious freedom to all individuals.

Religious beliefs and dogma, given by our democratic freedoms however, could never be just laws for all. Religious interpretations of the ones would invariably be an unjust imposition on the the different religious interpretations or legitimate rights of others.

Sorting first, and agreeing on ONE religious law for all humanity?!?!?! Don't think so!

On that note, notice how hopelessly our brother 'spider' is trying with every bit of 'tenacity' and virtuous acrobatics of the sriptures, to impose his brand of Biblical laws, interpretations and beliefs, and failing miserably at it, of his own admission.

All that hardship 'preaching' on a culturally Christian forum, imagine imposing this 'shaky' rhetoric on the other two Abrahamic religions and their coutless variations to start, and then moving to this ocean of unrelated beliefs and cults, chief amongst them, Budhism, and Hindouism.

Got to be a better way to freely 'round-up' humanity!!!

Democracy you say!!!

If you're not convinced, close your eyes and think for a moment, that the Fanatical Religious right were REALLY the Moral Majority!!! And democratically voting our laws?!?!?

OK!!! OK!!! Too cruel a thought. But being too complaisant and 'politically correct on our modern day Pharisees, could make that nightmare a reality.

Bottom line:

Democratic freedoms allow for individual and private religious freedom for all, without imposition. Open and inclusive!!!

Religious beliefs will never be just and fair to all, and will always be an inadmissible imposition to those whom do not share the beliefs. Closed, exclusive and tribal!!!

who has the answers who live in the crash

this may take a new idea

a new vocabulary

a new book

it's the same conversation, the same arguments over and over again

solve the mystery of dignity. the bible wasn't enough. and how many religions are there, again? laws?

think it's time for downsizing ideas

think, talk, think, talk, think, talk, think, talk, think

but then the world and life wouldn't be interesting anymore, for some.

The way I see it. This country was founded by Christian-like people. Now the way I see it, our laws have and should reflect those beliefs as it is working in this country even today. Although because of the diversity, we try to even it all out, and there are a lot of upset people. You can't make everyone happy, so go with the one that works. So what if joe blow is a pagan hippie. So what if Eisner wants things his way. If you don't like it, you don't have to live here. There are other country's that support those other beliefs and religions. This is a Christian Nation (Though I realize corrupt and not perfect in a sense). But that is what this great land is. You can worship in your churches and do what you will here. But when it comes to those above you (not saying anyone is better), in a sense of the law, and politics, then either yield and be happy. Or leave. Simple as that.

Random_Stranger writes:

" The way I see it. This country was founded by Christian-like people. Now the way I see it, our laws have and should reflect those beliefs as it is working in this country even today. Although because of the diversity, we try to even it all out, and there are a lot of upset people. You can't make everyone happy, so go with the one that works. So what if joe blow is a pagan hippie. So what if Eisner wants things his way. If you don't like it, you don't have to live here. There are other country's that support those other beliefs and religions. This is a Christian Nation (Though I realize corrupt and not perfect in a sense). But that is what this great land is. You can worship in your churches and do what you will here. But when it comes to those above you (not saying anyone is better), in a sense of the law, and politics, then either yield and be happy. Or leave. Simple as that."

I never thought of religious bigotry as being something from which the American psyche was immune despite its Libertarian underpinnings, and I guess this is just one example of it.

I'm an agnostic, Mr. Stranger, and I'm not going anywhere despite your fondest wishes that I knuckle under to the tyranny you are trying to pass off as a civil right of the majority.

Ever see the pre-Revolutionary War flag that said "Don't Tread On Me"? I suggest you acquaint yourself with the history of the Gadsden flag if it's your intent make a career of stirring up this type of intolerant sentiment.

On the theory that you're just being intellectually lazy, I would like you to consider that fact that the very first sentence of the very first amendment to the Constitution says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibition the free exercise thereof." (And, the Supreme Court has affirmed, "No law means NO law.")

Since those founders were all fleeing the religious tyranny of England, I think its being assigned that position was no accident. I think it was foremost on their minds when writing the Bill of Rights.

That same article says that citizens have a right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That some citizens' minority beliefs offends your religious sensibilities is hardly one deserving of such redress. But, if you think otherwise, I suggest you exercise your Constitutional right and try to pass a law, or for that matter, a Constitutional ammendment proclaiming this a Christian nation.

I just suggest you buy some flameproof undies before you do, though. :) The country's not that far gone yet.

-Kerry O.

religion is a belief, a believe that you can always believe even when believing is unbelievably hard. even if full believe was unbelievable you could still believe that you could fully believe.

i really should have been a philosopher

Alanna77 says:
“religion is a belief, a believe that you can always believe even when believing is unbelievably hard. even if full believe was unbelievable you could still believe that you could fully believe
i really should have been a philosopher”
--------------------------------------------
Actually, I'm thinking,mm, maybe - lawyer?!!!!!!!
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Random_Stranger (plays the trump card}:

"The way I see it. This country was founded by Christian-like people. Now the way I see it, our laws have and should reflect those beliefs as it is working in this country even today...

If you don't like it, you don't have to live here. There are other country's that support those other beliefs and religions. This is a Christian Nation (Though I realize corrupt and not perfect in a sense). But that is what this great land is. You can worship in your churches and do what you will here. But when it comes to those above you (not saying anyone is better), in a sense of the law, and politics, then either yield and be happy. Or leave. Simple as that."
------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Random, if you want to pull a trump card, make sure it’s the highest one in the deck.
I was born in the United States, I call that a ‘great coincidence of birth’. What better place to find ones-self than in a country that allows you to change it to your liking. Can you think of any other country that would allow me to do this? If so, remember it, you may want to move there someday. Someday when YOU are the target for oppression and discrimination.

As for this nation reflecting the religious beliefs of Christian founders, while you look into what KerryO has suggested, you might also look into the religions those founders “practiced”? Might be an eye-opener.

There are many who claim the same thing you have, but no-one that I know of, has ever been able to present PROOF, that any part of the Constitution upheld any particular religious belief. Would you like to try – or have you been over-trumpt?

Random Stranger wrote;
“But when it comes to those above you (not saying anyone is better), in a sense of the law, and politics, then either yield and be happy. Or leave. Simple as that."

The old, “Like it or leave it” syndrome huh?

That’s easy for people to say who are happy with things and SELFISH!

Yes, that is a selfish view. Not meant in a derogatory way.

Consider this Stranger,….

I’m not gay. I have absolutely no reason in the world do care whether gays have rights in this country.

Or do I?

What a minute!

What is this country supposed to be about?

Being heterosexual?

Is that what this great nation is all about?

Is that what our soldiers fight for?

The right to be heterosexual?

NO! That’s NOT what this country is about.

This country is about FREEDOM!!! FREEDOM TO BE WHO YOU ARE!

Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of enterprise, and freedom to the pursuit of happiness.

Even though I’m not gay I am an American and I believe in FREEDOM!

Therefore I MUST vote for gay rights!!!

To do anything less would be to spit in the face of FREEDOM.

So your “Love it or Leave it” cliché doesn’t reach very far.

Love what? A country that fails to support the FREEDOM that it claims to be all about?

Leave what? A country that has fallen astray from it’s original goal of FREEDOM?

No, don’t leave!

STAND UP for AMERICA and SUPPORT FREEDOM FOR ALL!!!

... dont really care what this country "should" be about. I as a christian am only concerned with how God wants us to live, as i believe his laws would be a vast improvement over our mess of a system, even though i recognise it to be the best on earth at this time.... which dont say much for mans laws in my opinion.

In a word -- NO

satan is confusion says the book. ever been to a law library? wall to wall books and theres three floors of it in a complete law library. Our so confusing that you need a lawyer ( bottom feeding fish?) to do anything legal. i would hold our legal system hi and say it is the poerfect example of confusion. The bible laws are understandable and logical, and they only take up a few chapters of the bible, yet they cover every possible thing that could happen and what the remedy is. hmmmmm

OK - if anyone is still interested in continueing this discussion, I'll continue.

So, I asked if anyone thought there was religious conotation to the word marriage - as adopted by Federal code. I have personally been unable to find ANY proof that it was intended to hold any religious connection. Here is how the code reads.

TITLE 1 > CHAPTER 1 > § 7
Prev | Next
§ 7. Definition of “marriage” and “spouse”

In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the word “marriage” means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife, and the word “spouse” refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife.

Quite obviously Gays and lesbians can not be legally married.

This definition of what has been understood under federal law for over 200 years; that a marriage is the legal union of a man and a woman as husband and wife, and a spouse is a husband or wife of the opposite sex.

So what's changed in 200 years ???

At the time this code was put into effect, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder, as late as the 1970's, gays and lesbians could be committed, against their will, for psychiatric treatment.

It was also considered a perversion, someting so offesive that sodomy laws were created. Laws, by the way, the Supreme court finally overturned as recently as June of 2003.

Also in the last 200 years, there have been over 1400 Laws in the U.S.Code, created in conjunction with that word.

So speeding up to date here,
We now have a Law at the highest level, to which many other laws have been subscribed (see United States Codes).
We also have a whole 'new' sector of society who are discriminated against because of the definition of one word.

It's completely obvious that the Constititution was never meant to be inflexible or static in nature. For a government to work for the long term, it must exist on foundations that are open to change, as the times and poeple require. If you don't believe that, than you have just lost all the rights affored to you by all the admendmentd posted to that Constitution. If you don't what that includes, you need to read the document in full and then check the United States Code in any law library, for every law affiliated with every amendment of the Constitution.

It's clear that the laws discriminate, the issue is how to correct it. So I'm asking for suggestions?

Quite frankly I think if the Bible did come down as the final law in the US, I believe I would do my utmost to get out. All the "freedoms" would not be. Tell me the actual difference between religious leaders and Roman ones. The thing I find odd is most minority religions who have come to power seem to find it necessary to turn around and do the exact same thing to the "new" minority.