Rambill wrote:
“Your obviously more compassinate and intelligent than God?”

See Bill, you can’t even think outside the box at all.

I just got done telling you that I don’t believe that the deity depicted in the Bible has anything at all to do with God.

Then you come back saying that I’m claiming to be more compassionate and intelligent than God?

You obviously can’t even comprehend what I’m saying. Forget about even trying to deal with it responsibly. We have a complete communication gap here. You're totally unable to think even for one second that the Bible might not be from God.

You are totally locked into that point of view so deeply that you can't even consider any alternative.

I have no idea if that's faith, or brainwashing. But it seems to me that on a pure intellectual level you should at least be able to comprehend what I'm saying.

I am NOT saying that I'm more compassionate or more intelligent than god. In fact, I even stated that this would be IMPOSSIBLE! Thus I must reject the Bible. That was my very REASON for rejecting the Bible. Because it CAN'T be true!

blinded by the light

manferd mann and the earth band

ooooppppppppss

wrong thread

thought i'd something more to say

DJ-

Wrong thread? I thought it was completely appropriate to the conversation!!

But as a wise man often says,

"oh well what do I know"

Abra-

As you know I agree that:
"it would not possible for the creator of this universe to be such an uncompassionate bumbling idiot." (as is portrayed in many parts of the Christian bible, especially the old testament).

But why do you think people felt the need to make "God" so downright mean and well... unchristian?

E.g. That story in Kings (II) where the children make fun of the prophet Elisjahs bald head and so GOD SENDS she wolves to KILL the CHILDREN!!?!?!!!

Second Kings: Verse 23

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

How is that the action of a Creator?!? It's just too petty and incomprehensible to me that that comes from God... It must be from man IMO.

Well, maybe we can fix the laws up to incorporate all these religious values?

Let’s see,

Bald people are allowed to own attack bears but they can only sic them on children who mock their baldness.

People who worship potatoes are not permitted to buy French fryers.

Judge Judy has to pee on her own leg from now on.

Posting song titles in the wrong thread is only permitted if you post a disclaimer in the post that immediately follows the original offense.

It will no longer be permitted to say, “Thought I’d say something more”, unless you actually DO say something more.

Hair stylists will not be allowed to make hair length decisions for their victims. To do so will be considered sacrilege.

Ram - I've had this thought before when discussing with you. I think you know me well enough at this, that I can say it without offending you.

You really have such a deep commitment to your faith. Do you distance yourself from people so as not to judge them or argue with them? I've only ever seen this intense side of you.

The other think that just keep plagueing me - Have you ever been around the Amish? They are a poeple much like you and I've known several. I think you might enjoy sharing some time with them. Do you think you could live thier life style?

Excuse the interruption, but sometimes we just need to get to know people.

Now about this disucssion. Let me ask you all this.

Do you think the word marriage as it is used in our Federal laws has a religious connotation?

anoasis,

1) They were bears, not wolves.

2) They were young men, not children. Not every translation is perfect. Isaac was a "young man" when he went with his father to be sacrificed...a young man of 37 years old. They were probably younger than Elisha, but they weren't children by any strech.

3) They were mauled, not necessarily killed.

4) You don't understand what the insult "Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head" means. "Go up" means "get lost". "bald head"...we aren't sure, maybe Elisha had shaved his head, it's very unlikely that he was naturally bald. The insult was in this fact: The people respected Elijah the prophet (Elisha's mentor), but not the God Elijah served. Elisha spent much of his career as a prophet trying to explain to people that it was God who was great and that he and Elijah were just vessels for God's mercy. They weren't insulting Elisha, they were saying that God had nothing to do with Elijah's power and that Elisha didn't matter. God picked Elisha as a messenger to the Israelites, so if the people mocked Elisha, they wouldn't listen to his very important messages. So God made sure that next time, nobody would insult his messenger.

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You know what I thought when I first read your post?

Oh anoasis (covers his eyes and puts his head down)... really? that's what you put all your creative efforts into? I think you can do better.

(Sigh).

Absolutely not!!!

A union made between entities.

The marriage of colours. The marriage of trees, mountains and rivers over the landscape. The marriage of succulent flavors.
The marriage of two individuals.

Religion has invested lots in creating the perception that it is an exclusive 'man and women' in the eyes of God 'trademark', as written in the book some Christians believe in. A bit like 'kleenex' once claimed the tissue paper namesake.

But otherwise, two people whom declare their commitment to love and stand for one another is a marriage. And if they chose to celebrate it in a Church, than so be it.

Yes, marriage is based on the religion for the most part.

I agree laws of man should not be based on religion.

Spider wrote:
“2) They were young men, not children.
3) They were mauled, not necessarily killed.”

According to the following translations I found they were “youths” in one, and “Children” in the other, and both of these translations suggest that the children were indeed killed.

~~~

GWT: Looking back, he saw them and cursed them in the LORD's name. Two bears came out of the woods and tore 42 of these youths apart. (GOD'S WORD®)


BBE: And turning back, he saw them, and put a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the wood and put forty-two of the children to death.

~~~

Obviously the Bible is quite unclear since everyone translates it differently. Why would the creator of the universe inspire an unclear book that no two people can agree on to be the guide for the human race????

That in itself makes no sense.

Why should anyone believe your interpretation of things Spider?

~~~

“What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job.” – Carl Sagan

Got to love that good 'ol Carl!!!

:)

Laws should be based on the highest good of society ... no based in some religious doctrine.



Rambill wrote: "we think we know better than God how to run our lives." That line made me ponder a little ... thank you

Well on a purely philosphical level ... yes ... I believe I do know better ... my belief stucture is such that God is everything ... the Alpha and the Omega ... the One ... the All.

When you are everything there is nothing that you are not. When you are everything there can be no experience ... no growth ... for there is nothing outside of you to lap up against. I believe I ... we ... are the experiencing arms of God so that the One may come to know itself and to grow.

My job is to experience life through the senses and through emotion. God can't do that except through us ... so yes I do know better. It is the arrangement God and I made ... His gift to me is Life ... my gift to Him is Living.

I do not require an external code by which to guide my actions. My understanding of the interconnectedness of all things is governing enough ... what I do to my neighbour I do to me ... what is done to the weakest of us is done to us all ... I send love, compassion, tolerance....not because I read it in a book ... not because I am fearful of the punishment God might reign down upon me ... it is because I understand that I am not separate from you and you are not separate from me ... nor am I separate from the earth, the plants, the wildlife ... it is all one.

Nice post Red

Abracadabra,

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H05288&Version=kjv
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na`ar
1) a boy, lad, servant, youth, retainer
a) boy, lad, youth
b) servant, retainer

AV — young man 76, servant 54, child 44, lad 33, young 15, children 7, youth 6, babe 1, boys 1, young 1
=============================================================

76 times, na'ar was translated as "young man" and only seven times "children". These translations were done by real people with real flaws, sometimes they didn't do a great job.

Genesis 22:12
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And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the >>>lad<<<, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
=============================================================

The word "lad" in the above scripture is also na'ar and is speaking of Isaac. Isaac was 37 years old when these events occured, hardly a child.

=============================================================

But let's assume the worst possible scenario, God sent two bears and they killed 42 children. God gave those children life. God sustained those children's lives. God created the world. God created the air we breathe. God created the sun that warms us. God created everything that exists. What right would anyone have to judge God's actions when we don't know what God knows? You constantly talk about making moral judgements, but you haven't just judged men, you dare to judge God.

You grow such beautiful flowers Sherrie. I wish I could do the same.

I so easily fall into the trap of beating down the weeds in the fear that the flowers will be choked out and not seen. But I know that I also beat the weeds to the point where I sometime forget to water the flowers.

Sherrie wrote:
“His gift to me is Life ... my gift to Him is Living”

I’ve been thinking about this very thing. I wanted to actually start a thread on this very concept. I wanted to start a beautiful thread and share the beautiful of these truly unconditional gifts. Neither one being demanded. Both being offered freely and unconditionally. The creator and created in symbiotic worship of each other. Not worship as in servitude, but in the truest sense of reverence and adoration.

However, because I’m so well known for beating weeds. Any seeds that I might attempt to sow to glorify creation would quickly be spat upon and pillaged by the burrs and thistles that seek revenge for scars of the mythical sword of Zeus.

I have no anger toward the weeds, I simply wish to remove them from the garden of Eden. Yet my methods are crude and physical using swift stokes of the sword to cut into their roots and gnash away at their false delusion hoping to expose the bitter sap that flows within their stems.

I know that this is not the proper method to cultivate a garden. The correct technique is to simply nurture all the flowers and ignore the weeds until the weeds themselves are simply overrun by the pure intrinsic brilliance of the colors in the rainbow of the flora.

My mechanical method of cultivation is crude. It tears up the garden, but does not serve to prepare a proper bed for the germination of understanding. Instead, it leaves deep furrows of defensive resentment like trying to plow a field with a bulldozer where a seeds could have easily be been broadcast by hand.

I seriously have no wish to plant seeds in the field of spiritual fertility. I simple wish to retire and smell the roses as they bloom on the arbor of my garden. I want to retire, not from the domain of mammon, from which I have already been freed, but from the domain of man. I await permission to leave, but none is granted. My stay in the garden shall not be brief. I sense that I will remain here for as much as a score.

I sigh with exhaustion. My work is never done. Assignment after assignment. How many lifetimes must I bear? I have been tenaciously refusing to offer the gift of living, in the asinine hope that my gift of life would also be revoked. The belly of god laughs at me with a genuine sense of humor.

“You don’t like my gift?”, god says to me. I sigh and pretend to ignore her. She laughs again knowing that I will answer. “No”, I reply with the empty words of verbiage. She laughs once more and looks into my eyes awaiting my reply. “Alight”, I say, “You will, I love the life you gave me”. She then looks at me as though she awaits a further explanation.

I try to play the hard-nose and ignore her once again, but she has infinite patience. Infinite patience.

I finally sigh and say to her, “So what do you want me to do?” She laughs a belly laugh again as she dances merrily away. Of course, I know my task. Tis I, I seek to fool. I’m tired, and lazy, and wishing for a free ride home. But my cross is filled with octane, and not yet parked in its garage.

I’m looking down the highway. I see my destination straight ahead. Not merely just a mile or two, but what appears to me to be an infinite journey. How many lifetimes must I endure? Again I sigh and ponder the length of every second. Eons of timeless timelessness all strewn before me like a stairway into nowhere. I need to take that first step forward, but I can’t cast off the sloth. I’ve come to fall in love with it as though it is my spouse.

God just looks at me and shakes her pretty head. She knows precisely what I’m thinking but she refuses to give me a shove. It’s entirely up to me to lift my foot from path to path.

I don’t wanna

But she wont accept my answer.

I don’t wanna

She giggles like a girl.

I don’t wanna

She leaves me now to deal with my own procrastination.

Spider wrote:
“But let's assume the worst possible scenario, God sent two bears and they killed 42 children. God gave those children life. God sustained those children's lives. God created the world. God created the air we breathe. God created the sun that warms us. God created everything that exists. What right would anyone have to judge God's actions when we don't know what God knows? You constantly talk about making moral judgements, but you haven't just judged men, you dare to judge God.”

Ah but you are so mistaken Spider. I judge not god.

In fact, what you have just stated here about god is what I have always said. This is the essence of pantheism. God can do anything so likes because everything is hers.

My judgments of your Holy Book are not judgments put to God. They are merely observations of the petty egotistical crap that mankind has written into the stories.

It’s not that god cannot do what she wishes. It’s just that she would never do such petty things as the Bible claims. It’s not a matter of morally judging god. Its just a matter of recognizing that the stories had to have been written by men.

So, no Spider I dare not judge god (like as if she would care if I did). I simply judge a book to be mythology and that is all.

Thank you for your keen observations Spider. But your conclusions are totally misplaced.

Oh my dear Abra

Why do you seek to choke out the weeds in favour of the flowers? They are all doing their work ... living ... so that the one may know itself...in all aspects.

Is it possible to observe both without emotional attachment to either? Therein lies peace in the world...

"Every time you water the garden, you also water the weeds
A profound illustration of sin and temptation
Four floors above the street"

From Fourth Floor lyrics- The Waifs


Weeds are not seen as noxious through the eyes of a child, they are just as pretty as a prize garden.