No. I don't state my views as if they are any sort of absolute truth.

You're clearly either lacking in reading comprehension skills, or you are doing the same thing to my posts as you do with the Bible and only see what you'd like to believe is there.



Nobody has any clue what Jesus might have said, or not said, or even whether such a man ever existed.

All you have is confessed hearsay rumors written by highly questionable and obviously biased authors that include many contradictions and logical errors in their very own claims.

So trying to shove a verbatim bible down anyone's throat is an act of futility on your part. Especially in light of the fact that the whole religion is fragmented and no two theologians can ever agree on much of anything to begin with.

Face it, it's just an act of pure desperation and frustration on your part anyway. You can't make the religion look inviting so now you're down to trying to make out like those who refuse to believe in it will be damned.

That's precisely how pathetic this religion truly is. This is one of the many things that makes it so pathetic Cowboy.

The idea of a God who condemns people who don't believe in him is truly pathetic.

Of all the things associated with these doctrines this is probably the single brightest RED FLAG that is showing us clearly that these texts were written by men who were trying to create a religion that could ultimately be used to coerce people into following it.

No truly divine being could ever be so pathetic, IMHO.

It's certainly not a religion that I'd care to place my faith in.

And trying to use the FEAR TACTIC of suggesting that failure to believe in it will result in condemnation is truly laughable Cowboy.

That's the epitome of ignorance.

So all you're basically suggesting here is that you have "faith" that the creator of all mankind truly is this ignorant.

More power to you!

I'll gladly pass on that ideology.

Yes you do, or else your statement(s) would start with "I believe". If "I believe" is not in front of the statement it is stated as profound truth.



Again, yes that is my religious BELIEF, as this is the forum for that. To me it is the truth. If you do not believe, that is fine. That is your choice. No one is here to change another's beliefs, no one is here to make another believe as they do. We are purely having a DISCUSSION about our different beliefs, we are CHATTING about our different religious beliefs in a religion CHAT forum.

The "Christians" I refer to are the AUTHORS of the Bible. Not the modern day followers who use that label.

As a label for modern day followers the term is utterly meaningless, because everyone uses it to mean something entirely different.

In fact, modern day "Christians" usually don't even agree with each other.

Ok. So you believe that God hates everyone who doesn't believe in him through the ancient Hebrew texts, and via your own personal interpretations of those texts.

Well, that's an interesting belief.

I don't even believe the first part, much less the second part.

God hates no one. My sole interpretation may or may not be right. That is one of the reasons I discuss in here. I discuss here to learn. Discussing with you as you well know from my "changed" beliefs on certain things, I have learned quite a bit. I have learned this through having to look up specific things in the bible. You have to know what you're talking about before you can tell it to others. I am open to other peoples interpretation(s) of certain verse(s). Not saying I WILL believe as they do, but I'm not closed to the possibility. Again with the having been shown the error in my belief with previous discussions. I'm here to learn just as much as I am here to teach.

Abra stated...


and also...



So which is it? Your own words betray you, you know that, right?

Actually, the "bible" is a compiliation of many manuscripts. It's not entirely written by "christians", but rather by the spiritually inspired. The languages are ancient aramaic, egyptian, Latin and hebrew to Greek. Thank the Nicene Council for screwing it up. They chose what books to include and what not to include. Charlemeins choice was for only Mat. Mark, Luke and John. Typical neo-roman emperor (and megalomaniac) attempting to unify everyone under one banner.
If you take a close look at the greek text of the new testament and attempt to translate it, you will notice many words that are familiar to our language, but you will also begin to notice what resembles a jigsaw puzzle that was compiled from many different puzzles (because of the differences in regional dialects spanning about 1000 years). Gotta hand it to them for trying.
There would come a time when the title "christian" would be considered a curse.
There was a breakthrough when the dead sea scrolls were found and that one entire book of the scriptures was found contained in one of the jars (I believe it was the book of Isaiah and that's old testament written in ancient hebrew). That was the most complete "singular" translation ever found and that shed light on a lot of things.
You would be surprised at what you discover when you begin reading the scriptures in Greek. ... seriously.

As for hell ... "hell" is the grave. The common misconception is that we're doomed to burn, yada yada yada ... WRONG.
The fire that is never quenched refers to the permanence of the destruction. ("the wages of sin is death" ... not everlasting life, especially in the 'torture chamber' as alluded to by the holy rollers and evangelicals). The everlasting fire means total and complete destruction. No deposit, no return.
Take a look at a funeral ... who's weeping and gnashing their teeth?
It's the people who are living that are doing it for the dead who were lost from them. You see it happen all around the world today in every culture especially around disasters. But even though they may be lost to the living, they are not entirely lost. They were already bought for a dear price. But who is to say we "sleep" until then.
But rather that we transition through a door to a much greater adventure.
Death is death .... it is not eternal life. Don't be deceived.
To claim that we're not "saved" is a deception.
We were already purchased for the price of blood and we await the time for redemption. (You know, when our ticket gets called in).
THAT salvation comes when it's time and not before.
There is something in there that defines who WE are and what we are meant to be. There is something more to Yeshua than we realize and that those things (miracles) documented Post mortem ... that there is a clear message for those who are willing to "listen".

Look it up with your own eyes if you don't believe me. Better yet, learn to read greek and you'll see it more clearly. Keep your eyes open for everything, because you'll begin to read things that will astound you. Those are many things that present day religions fail to teach.

You're not listening Peter.

It's BOTH.

What I'm saying is that the Biblical writings are so riddled with contradictions that they can be used to say anything.

And they are constantly used to claim "OWNERSHIP" of God for the religion, as Cowboy attempts to use them. He's posting his verses from the very SAME SCRIPTURES that I post mine.

This is like two Jesus marionette dolls arguing with themselves.

I'm portraying the GOOD Jesus who gives everyone the benefit of the doubts, doesn't judge people, and allows that not all people are sinners.

Cowboy is portraying the EVIL Jesus who is drooling at his fangs to condemn everyone for the slightest trivial reasons.


It's BOTH Peter.

But it is true that most (if not all) Christian proselytizers attempt to use it to portray the EVIL Jesus who's chomping at the bit to condemn everyone who refuses to cower down to the proselytizer's interpretations of these scriptures.

~~~~~

I try my best to make Jesus out to be a nice guy.

The proselytizers are determined to use Jesus to support their hateful bigotries. And in that sense, not only do they lay claim to the OWNERSHIP of Jesus himself, but they even claim OWNERSHIP of his TONGUE.

Jesus is their Evil Marionette Doll, and they are determined to use him to devour the GOOD Jesus that I try to portray.

They are quick to spit on any words of Jesus that might even remotely imply anything GOOD. And they rush off to find the filthiest most condemning verses they can find to shove in the mouths of their Evil Marionette Jesus Dolls.

So it's BOTH Peter.

What I'm saying is that this religious doctrine is itself an oxymoronic text.

~~~~

I try my best to make Jesus appear to be as loving and forgiving as possible. Which is what I believe he taught, love and forgiveness.

These other people are determined to use him to support their religious bigotry and hatred toward everyone who refuses to cower down and worship their Evil Marionette Jesus Doll.

I like my Marionette Jesus Doll much better. He's far wiser, more loving, and far more forgiving and tolerant than theirs.

He doesn't demand that anyone believe in his words, for he came not to judge the world but to save it.

John 5:22

22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son
----------

Matthew 10:33
33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
-----------

Yes, I'm aware of all of this. Also, I should have said that when I refer to the "Christians" I'm actually referring to the authors of the "New Testament" not the old. Obviously the Old Testament or Torah was writing long before the Christians. Although I do believe the modern versions of the "Christian" Old Testament have been altered quite a bit from the Torah.

I'm not surprised at all about the Greek contributions to the Bible in general. Much of this stuff is just Zeus being reincarnated in writings.

The Teaching Company has a good course on this:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=6252

I haven't watched this course myself, but after reading the detailed synopsis I can see that it's only going to confirm what I already knew to be true. The cannon of writings that we currently call "The Bible" today is the result of many arguments between "Christians" and Jews over the idea of Christ being he messiah.

I'm sure that the Christians even continued to alter and transcribe and translate even their version of the "Old Testament" with a slant toward trying to make it better support their claims that Jesus was "The Christ".

And many of the interpretations can be DRASTICALLY CHANGED just by a biased choice of the transcription of a single work.

Like for example:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Just change a few words ever so slightly and you get:

"Jesus saith unto him, I teach the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by my teachings."

That makes all the difference in the world.

Plus Jesus could have simply be teaching what he believed to be truth, just like Cowboy teaches what he believes to be truth today.

If we see human exhibiting this sort of behavior today, why then shouldn't we believe that people back then couldn't have been just arrogant and stubborn too?

So no, I wouldn't be surprised by anything.

Oh, and yes, I guess when I say the "Christian AUTHORS" I'm actually referring to all these people throughout history who played a role in crafting the words of these texts right up to the 1600's when the King Jame's version was finally crafted a full 1600 years after the events of Jesus ever happened (assuming they ever happened at all)

So I wouldn't be surprised at all if much of it was written in Greek at one time. It's all untrustworthy hearsay today.

And if Jesus wouldn't blame someone for not believing his words in person, he's certainly not going to expect anyone to believe in 2000 year old highly transcribed and translated hearsay rumors!

That would be utterly absurd to think that someone could be blamed for not believing in such undependable texts.

So what's your point in posting these verses, they don't even have anything to do with each other.

No one today can deny Jesus. That's impossible. All we have today are hearsay rumors that the man even existed. It would be impossible for anyone living today to deny Jesus.

My thinking is that Jesus may have potentially said this to people in an effort to get them to support him should the Pharisees charge him with blaspheme.

To not believe in the hearsay writings of the New Testament today would not be to 'deny Jesus before men'. All it would be is to not believe in the story in the first place.

So your usage of scriptures doesn't even make sense. You're trying to shove words in your Evil Little Jesus Marionette Doll but they don't even fit the situation.

Moreover, John 5:22 is contradicted by John 12:48

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Well, according to Genesis the word is God. But that flies int he face of 5:22 that the Father Judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son.

So there's a contradiction right there. In one place he says that all judgment has been committed unto the Son, and in other place he claims that those who do not believe have one who will judge them.

So the thing is just riddled with contradictions galore.

What good does it do to pick and choose the verses that seem to support a particular idea if on the next page a verse can be found that contradicts the previous verse?

The Jesus Marionette Doll game will always fail.

No matter how hard you try there will always be another contradicting verse somewhere. It's just riddled with conflict and contradictions.

You're trying very hard to make your little Jesus Marionette Doll to be as Evil as you can possibly make him out to be. But I can see your ventriloquism from here. You're feeding these words into the mouth of your Evil little Jesus Doll.

Cowboy..you are entitled to your opinion...

as is everyone else.....

and a lot of what you have shared on the forum I do agree with.....

but I totally disagree with what you shared below:




Cowboy wrote...

"Who ever said it was a "free" gift. Heaven is a reward for obedience."

According to the bible,
salvation IS a free gift of grace, and if a person is truly saved,they go to heaven....period....not as some reward.


"Cowboy wrote....

"We do not worship Jesus in the first place nor did Jesus tell us to worship him, so that point is mute."

I disagree.

Because of what Jesus did for us on the cross, all glory and power and honor and praise go to that name above every name....the name of Jesus.

We come to the Father ,and ask the father in Jesus Name...and christians worship Jesus.



Cowby wrote....

"There is God our father, Jesus the son, and The Holy Spirit. But they are all under the command of God our father. They are all his creations. They are not equal or greater. So no, not the same."



Incorrect... and also...not found in the bible.

they are not God's creations....God did NOT create the son and the holy spirit.

God the father ,God the son(Word), and God the holy spirit are the three persons in one Godhead......

and were together as 3 in one...right from the very beginning.

One God.....3 in one ...forever and always...ONE GOD ALMIGHTY.

Thanks MorningSong,

That was very well said.

God hates no one. My sole interpretation may or may not be right. That is one of the reasons I discuss in here. I discuss here to learn. Discussing with you as you well know from my "changed" beliefs on certain things, I have learned quite a bit. I have learned this through having to look up specific things in the bible. You have to know what you're talking about before you can tell it to others. I am open to other peoples interpretation(s) of certain verse(s). Not saying I WILL believe as they do, but I'm not closed to the possibility. Again with the having been shown the error in my belief with previous discussions. I'm here to learn just as much as I am here to teach.




Cowboy...In your statement above, I am glad you say you are also here to learn.

We all have much to learn...no one moreso than myself.

But I am gonna fuss at you about one more thing..then I am done fussing.


I have noticed that you have replied to Abra on many different occassions with this statement( below).

You wrote and I quote:

" We are purely having a DISCUSSION about our different beliefs, we are CHATTING about our different religious beliefs in a religion CHAT forum."


Sorry Cowboy...but that is a cop out.

We as christians are not to keep pushing the Word on unbelievers....especially

when they REPEATEDLY resist...

only to keep REPEATEDLY coming back with the reply," we are here to just have a discussion!!!"

Nope!!

It grieves the holy spirit to see this going on in here.

It is not what God calls us as believers to be doing....

otherwise our christian witness becomes nothing more than a source of harassment.....

under the "quise" of sharing the gospel message!!!

Sorry...but had to be said.

Shared in love cause you are my brother in Christ.

I didn't see that in Genesis

in Genesis it states that

"In The Beginning" God created the Heavens and the Earth

nothing about the word....perhaps it's a misprint

You're in for a shock if you read the greek text.

they probably snuck their version in with The Trojan Horse

hence the birth of the phrase

"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"

"nobody comes to the father except through/by me"...
If anybody really understood what he was saying.....

I know exactly what he is saying.

Example: all these things you will do, and more ....

Most people have no idea and no clue.

Easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle ....

It is so true.

what if you have large camel size needles

James 2:14

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.