God hates no one. My sole interpretation may or may not be right. That is one of the reasons I discuss in here. I discuss here to learn. Discussing with you as you well know from my "changed" beliefs on certain things, I have learned quite a bit. I have learned this through having to look up specific things in the bible. You have to know what you're talking about before you can tell it to others. I am open to other peoples interpretation(s) of certain verse(s). Not saying I WILL believe as they do, but I'm not closed to the possibility. Again with the having been shown the error in my belief with previous discussions. I'm here to learn just as much as I am here to teach.




Cowboy...In your statement above, I am glad you say you are also here to learn.

We all have much to learn...no one moreso than myself.

But I am gonna fuss at you about one more thing..then I am done fussing.


I have noticed that you have replied to Abra on many different occassions with this statement( below).

You wrote and I quote:

" We are purely having a DISCUSSION about our different beliefs, we are CHATTING about our different religious beliefs in a religion CHAT forum."


Sorry Cowboy...but that is a cop out.

We as christians are not to keep pushing the Word on unbelievers....especially

when they REPEATEDLY resist...

only to keep REPEATEDLY coming back with the reply," we are here to just have a discussion!!!"

Nope!!

It grieves the holy spirit to see this going on in here.

It is not what God calls us as believers to be doing....

otherwise our christian witness becomes nothing more than a source of harassment.....

under the "quise" of sharing the gospel message!!!

Sorry...but had to be said.

Shared in love cause you are my brother in Christ.










Not a cop out. Not speaking to Funches directly or even indirectly. This is a forum for everyone. Things I say may be in direct response to something he has said, but not ment directly at him. It is said for enlightenment towards the people that read these words, but may or may not post at least not in that particular discussion. If Funches listens not, that is ok, that is his choice. But other's read these words as well.

You are confusing faith and salvation.

I believe what these verses are really saying is:

If you have faith but hide it from the world, it isn't really faith.

If you have faith and will let is shine through you for others to see, that is true faith.

Still don't need to "do" anything.

A "work" of faith could just be talking to your neighbor and mentioning you go to church which may inspire them to attend later. The faith you have would shine through you at that point and that is what they would see that would encourage them to look into this further.

Salvation is what Jesus did for us to save us from ourselves. That is the Gift freely given.

Truly,

It's a real shame that there are people who take this religion to extremes like this. But the fact of the matter is that they do exist. Some are harmless, and others are not.

But even the "harmless" ones are actually doing harm to both their very own religion as well as to society in general.

~~~~~

Now there's a sermon I can applaud.

Yes this is a good example. No, you don't have to do anything special or out of the ordinary. Just in your normal day activities allowing your faith to shine through in your works you do, as in the example you used. Nothing out of the ordinary or ritual like.

Here's some examples of what I'm saying, may help clear it up a little. We are all examples for someone(s) directly or indirectly.

==========
- A murderer - What form of faith do they display?
- A person that continuosly uses foul words - What form of faith do they display
- A person that is rude to others - What form of faith do they display
ect
- A person that is kind - What form of faith do they display?
- A person that offers help to another with no payment required - What form of faith do they display?
===========

People naturally mirror the one's around them, to some extent anyways. That's why there are specific types of cultures in specific places in the world. If a person is influenced continusously with foul language by most to all the people around them all their lives, they more then likely will grow up to speak with foul language. If a person is raised around rude people, that person will more then likely grow up to be at least partly rude. No this is not an EXACT rule. But generally this is correct.

-Go to the big cities, they will have a type of culture in how they speak, act, and treat others.
-Go out into the country, they will have a type of culture in how they speak, act, and treat others.
ect

People naturally simulate with the other's around them for the most part. So that is why it is important for our faith to show through in our actions. We can and do spread the word of God through our actions in that.

I'm perfectly open to just chatting and discussion. So in that spirit I'd like to comment on the following:

I had stated that even according to the scriptures they have Jesus saying that he will not judge those who do not believe him. And supposedly he was speaking to people LIVE and face-to-face.

How much less would he expect someone 2000 years latter to believe in ancient hearsay rumors that are filled with outrageous supernatural claims that can never be confirmed?

So even if Jesus was real I would have no choice based on these doctrines but to accept that he does not even expect people to believe him much less judge people for not believing him. It says right in the scriptures that he won't judge people for not believing in him, contrary to what many Christian Preacher try to claim.

They simply aren't paying attention to the words that have been attributed to Jesus in these gospels. Jesus disagrees with him and say NO, he will not judge anyone for not believing in his words.

So to argue against that you'd have to argue against the words of Jesus. Not with me.

~~~~~

Secondly, you try to trample over Jesus own words, by using more of his own words, you come back with this verse:

~~~~~
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
~~~~~

Apparently you are attempting to try to claim that in this verse Jesus is implying that those who do not believe in him are "denying" him.

But that doesn't follow at all.

First off, again these words would have been spoken live face-to-face with people he was directly speaking to. He probably said this in an attempt to get the crowd to back him should the Pharisees ever accuse him of something. Unfortunately this didn't work out for him. But still that's the only context in which this verse would make any sense.

It certainly has no validity today. No human on Planet Earth today can confirm or deny the existence of Jesus much less anything else about him.

If you claim to know that Jesus was indeed born of a virgin you are actually lying.

Moreover if you confess that you have no way of knowing, but perhaps you personally don't believe he was, you are not denying it. All you are doing is telling the TRUTH. You're saying that it's impossible to know, and for you personally it seems unreasonable for whatever reasons.

That could not in any way be taken to be "denying" Jesus.

You simply aren't convinced that ancient hearsay rumors are accurate or truthful, and that's a perfectly rational and legitimate stance to take.

And the same thing can be said for all the miracles that these gospels claim he worked as well as for the very crucifixion itself, and the supposed resurrection.

To simply not be convinced of any of that stuff is in no way "denying" anything. All it amounts to is an honest truthful assessment.

Surely you're not going to try to hold up the notion that a supposedly all-righteous God would condemn people for being honest and truthful?

Your claim to "know" that Jesus was the son of God is actually the lie. You can believe it on FAITH with GREAT conviction and perhaps even feel in your heart that you 'know' that it is true in that way.

But that kind of 'knowing' is not the same as actual knowledge. That's just a conviction of faith.

So all you're trying to do when you post a verse like:

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

You're trying to use that verse to imply that Jesus will condemn honest people who simply don't believe in 2000 year-old extremely outrageous claims of supernatural events.

~~~~~~

What good does this serve anyone Cowboy?

What good does it do for you to go around trying to convince people that your vision of a God will condemn decent honest people for merely not believing in outrageous ancient claims of supernatural events?

What purpose does that serve?

At best, you might scare some people into believing in the religion out of fear that they might be condemned if they fail to believe it.

At worst, you'll just end up driving everyone away from the religion because you are making the God out to be totally unreasonable and unrighteous entity that no sane person could believe it.

~~~~~~

If you truly want to support the religion you need to find a more loving and more tolerant way to do so.

You'll need to learn how to "bend" like the willow tree. Allow for rational interpretations. Allow people to believe however they see fit without trying to use Jesus as a battering ram to condemn them if they don't agree with your specific views.

It serves no good to anyone to just beat people over the heads with threats of condemnation by a supposedly all-righteous God.

Your STRONGEST show of faith would be to confess that there are many problems with the biblical picture of God but you CHOOSE to believe in it anyway.

That's actually the stance that most respectable preachers take.

They confess that it's a matter of faith. Period amen.

John 12:48

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jesus' word that he has spoken -
Matthew 10:33

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.



It did work out. The crucifixion was prophesied to come long before it happened.

Isaiah 53:4-6

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That is why Jesus kept his cool for being crucified. He knew it was going to happen before it did. He knew the human race would react as it did. So yes, again it all worked out and went according to plan.




First off, what is decent? Is decent not an opinion of somebody? Is not your version of decent different then mine, different to msharmony, different to funches, different to any one else? What you see as 'decent' another may not see as decent. What you see as decent God may not see as decent, so on and so on.

And I'm not trying to convince anyone, first off, again this is purely a discussion forum. We are merely having enlightened discussion. Nothing personal to the other, no one's making any form of judgment, no one's condemning another. Secondly, why does it matter if it's 'ancient'? Will the knowledge we have now be 'ancient' in a couple years as well? Does that mean what happens now will be nothing but lies in a couple thousand years? And what good does it do to teach people of Jesus I presume is what you're asking? Well what bad comes of it? Jesus teaches us to treat all with love, respect, and care. What wrong comes from such? What foul thing does Jesus teach us?



Denying Jesus as lord. Saying he is not your lord. If you do not wish for Jesus to be your lord, eg., denying him, then so be it, it will be done. But it is Jesus whom offers eternal life.

Well, again, you're just randomly picking and choosing the words that YOU would like to shove down the throats of other.

I could just as easily choose these words for my Jesus Marionette Doll:


Luke.6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


You bend over backwards trying to use Jesus to condemn non-believers, and I bend over backwards trying to give Jesus a sense of sanity.

You spread hatred and condemnation in the name of Jesus.

I spread love and forgiveness.

You're welcome to your negative thoughts, but I don't see where they have any value other than for your own desire to use the scriptures and words of Jesus in an effort to condemn others in Jesus' name.

You condemn in Jesus' name.

I offer forgiveness in Jesus' name.





No, no prophecies were fulfilled. The prophesies in the Torah referred to someone that God would hand over the Throne of David to and make the King of the Jews. Jesus never fulfilled any such prophecy and this is a major reason why the Jews themselves never accepted these rumors.




I'm fully aware that we are just having a conversation Cowboy. That doesn't change the fact that you are constantly bending over backwards to condemn ALL NON-BELIEVERS in Jesus' name.

Nothing personal is taken. I'm just addressing your radical extremism and desire to use Jesus' name to condemn everyone who refuses to cower down to you religious arrogance.



That's a totally irrelevant question.

The reason being because you, nor any other radical religious extremist stops with Jesus. You just use Jesus as BAIT to suck people in to your religious bigotry.

You use the Bible in general to condemn homosexuality in the name of God, and that translates into the name of Jesus in your scenario.

The whole Christian "trick" is to use Jesus to prop up the old bigotries of the Old Testament. It's not good enough that people merely accept Jesus as their "savior" with that automatically comes an acceptance that the God of the Old Testament is true, and that sins can only be forgiven via a BLOOD SACRIFICE and that Jesus died to pay for the sins of all mankind, blah, blah, blah.

PLUS, in addition to that, you're personally trying to hold out things like a mere disbelief in Jesus is the same as "denying him".

So when it comes to Christianity in general we're not really talking about Jesus and his teachings at all! We're talking about accepting all the bigotries of Christianity including the writings of Paul, etc.

Jesus is just used as the BAIT for a far more hideous religious scam.

What I personally believe is that Jesus was indeed a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. He tried to teach people far better moral behavior and moral concepts than they currently had with their original religion. The Pharisees took exception to what he was trying to do and they found a way to have him crucified for blaspheme.

After he died, there were MANY RUMORS, and that is indeed a historical fact that has a lot of independent historical evidence. Even the Jews themselves did not accept the rumors the Jesus was the son of God.

But the Pharisees saw an opportunity to nail Jesus to the Old Testament (the very doctrine that he rejected) so they wrote the New Testament claiming that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham, blah, blah, blah, and Christianity was born.

And the name of Jesus has been used ever since to support the bigotries of the Old Testament from burning witches at the stake, to killing heathens in the crusades, to the modern day rejection of scientific knowledge, and using the Old Testament to support the idea that God hates homosexuals.

So YES, my friend a LOT of nasty crap comes out of accepting the Christian view that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham.

It doesn't stop with Jesus, by far! Jesus is just the tip of the iceberg for Christianity to use Jesus to support a ton of nasty bigotries and superstitions.




That's the Christian scam. And by "Christian" here I'm talking about the people who actually wrote this crap up.

Trying to condemn everyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their LORD and confess that he is indeed the only begotten son of the God of Abraham so they can get everyone to support all their religious bigotries in the name of Jesus as LORD.

To not believe in the Christian claims about Jesus is not the same as "denying" Jesus as "Lord". It's simply a rejection of the stories in the first place. They have NO CREDIBILITY!

There is no independent historical evidence to support any of the outrageous claims being made in those stories. There is no reason whatsoever for anyone to give them any merit at all.

These stories claim that a Voice spoke from a cloud to a large mass of people, yet there is no one independent historical account of any such thing. Why would a God even bother making such an announcement to only a few humans? That would just give THOSE humans an advantage over all the humans who never witnessed this event.

These stories claim that Jesus went all through the countryside with large followings of people healing all manner of sickness. Yet there is absolutely no independent historical evidence that any such thing ever took place.

These stories claim that when Jesus was resurrected a multitude of saints rose from their graves and went into the Holy City to show themselves to the people there. Yet there is no independent historical record for any such event having ever occurred.

A rational conclusion is that these stories are entirely fabricated at least concerning these outrageous claims of supernatural events.

But now you would have Jesus condemning all rational people for not believing in these stories.

Evidently that's what you believe and that's what must be true in order for your vision of Jesus to be true.

Hey, if that works for you more power to you.

But from my point of view you've been duped.

And now you're going around trying to convince other people that if they aren't duped too, Jesus will condemn them to everlasting punishment?

All this tells me is that you bought into this scare tactic yourself because you obviously BELIEVE IT.

How you can justify it is beyond me. It's nothing more than the epitome of religious bigotry.

Either believe in our God or he'll condemn you to hell!

And it will be YOUR FAULT for not believing in him!

Our God is totally righteous and just and would never condemn anyone of his own choice.

Yeah right.

How can you not see these utterly blatant contradictions in this religion?


~~~~~

Edited to add:

I should actually ask, "How can you not see the utterly blatant contradiction in your version of this religion?"

~~~~~~

I could actually offer up Christianity in a far better light. With the exception of one thing. The Crucifixion itself. As far as I see it the crucifixion itself cannot stand as being God idea or plan. And therefore I see absolutely not way to make this religion work using the standard Christian idea that Jesus was the messiah.

However, I can make it work with Jesus being a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. Then it works without a hitch. Jesus is "Saved", God is "Saved", and righteousness is "Saved", all in one feel swoop.

But of course, Orthodox Christianity then falls. That approach simply can't stand as held out by the New Testament.

But at least Jesus is "Saved" and made righteous and pure once and for all.

Jesus is king.

That's right Cowboy, you need to proclaim it because it was never made so in history. It's only true in your imagination.

King: 1a : a male monarch of a major territorial unit; especially : one whose position is hereditary and who rules for life b : a paramount chief
2capitalized : god, christ
3: one that holds a preeminent position; especially : a chief among competitors



well known kings

James Brown,, King of Soul
Elvis Presley,,,,King of Rock and Roll
willie nelson...King of Country


these are considered kings, not because they wore a crown, but because they were chief amongst other entertainers


as Jesus, as I think is believed by both cowboy and I, is chief amongst men and prophets,,,through his divine heritage and purpose

,,,its just semantics at the end of the day, but it is a relevant reason to label him King

It's right cause it is true my friend. Jesus rules.

That's certainly cool.

I have no problem with that ideology.

But I was speaking about prophecy. The messiah was supposed to be handed the Throne of King David by God himself. The messiah was supposed to become the King of Jews quite literally, not merely as a metaphor.

Prophecy that is fulfilled solely by the imagination of the people who wish it were so is hardly impressive.

There you go again, claiming that your views are absolute truth.

You do this constantly.

You outright lie about things that you cannot possibly know the truth value of

And that makes you dangerous because you'll obviously lie to anyone, potentially even young children who can easily be deceived by adults who lie to them.

The TRUTH is that you don't know, and that you merely prefer to have faith that it might be true. That's the truth Cowboy.

Why live a lie? What's wrong with the truth Cowboy?

Does your religious conviction excuse you from telling the truth?

Cowboy didn't you say that Jesus wasn't the seculuar law but only the non-secular law of eternal souls .....so what are you saying that he rules this time ...Hell perhaps?

So what's it called when you twist the scriptures to portray an evil god and a loving god in the same thread?

One of those HAS to be a lie, yet somehow, I predict you will deny lying....

see to me a miracle is god saving the ones in the tornado disaster not just letting them die for really no reason cause he created them?freewill is an excuse for christians to say a zombie is the ****....**** all you mother****ers grow up and love atoms and subatomic particals

Secular and spiritual things aren't totally two different things. Jesus gives laws that pertain to our souls, our eternal selves. Man's laws pertain to our fleshly lives. Jesus didn't have power over the MAN'S laws. But he has complete power over your ETERNAL SPIRITUAL law's, the law's he has given to us from God our father.

Again, this flesh is temporary, the laws of our land's are temporary. Say this world goes on for another say 1000 years. The country you live in is destroyed in say 500 years. The laws of your land will have ended in 500 years with your country. God's laws, the one's Jesus gave to us, will live for ever. They will never end.

I outright lie about things I can not possibly know the true value of? Ok hmm, let's think about this.

- Do you believe there are other planets outside this world? If you do, how do you know this? Pictures maybe? Other people's personal conviction stating there is? Sounds like the only way you truly know this is from hearsay rumors. Yes you can take a telescope and see them in the sky, but how do you KNOW they are actually planets? They could merely be the size of a beach ball for all you know. They could merely be comets or just random rocks floating in space. You do not know for exact fact they are planets.

- Do you believe the world is round? If you do, how do you know this? Pictures maybe? Other people's personal conviction stating it is? Sounds like again the only way you truly know this is from hearsay rumors. There is absolutely no way for YOU to know for a FACT the world is round.

The list could go on and on. You live on more faith then you believe. You just choose not to see that and not to put faith in particularly Jesus and what he has taught us or even the very fact if that is what he taught.

Why live a lie Abra? What's wrong with the truth?

It's my position that the scriptures are riddled with contradictions Peter Pan. I've tried to make this clear to you on many occasions perhaps you are having difficulty with this?

Therefore it's perfectly TRUE to recognize that the Bible contains both of these things.

It's your assumption of absolutism that is flawed.