that OBLIGATION should hold true for all people


I also know of palestinians who can tell stories of SNIPERS killing them off, killing their kids off, tell me thats just self defense? I think not

and if we arent there, who are we to say who terrorizes whom and who is justified in fulfilling such an OBLIGATION


internment camps are FULL of people who feel they need to protect their citizens and they are also full of opportunity for terrible injustices to go on unchecked and unnoticed,, IN THE NAME OF WAR

Israeli soldiers battle terrorists. Hamas terrorists kill families,
bomb buses, shoot rockets at homes and bomb restaurants.

Israelis try to only kill the terrorists without harming
civilians. This is their orders and this is how they operate.
If any non-combatants are killed by Israeli soldiers it is
unintentional.

On the other hand, Hamas and Hezbollah do their best to kill
as many men women and children non-combatants as possible and
if any Israeli soldiers get attacked it is most likely by accident!

I've read about this and now seeing the faces of the murdered family is heartbreaking indeed.

But...I feel that it was wrong for the video to say that the Arabs in Gaza were celebrating as usual. Those pictures of them proved nothing.

Of course it is warfare as was 9/11. Just because you can't see their cause for their warring doesn't make them not warring.

Who cares about a Geneva convention when it comes to war? We don't here.

There would not be sayings like "one nations terrorist is anothers freedom fighter" and such like that if it weren't for the fact that people cannot see other people's fights in life well

to believe in war, that either side does not have 'murderous' soldiers amongst them is to believe that there are never any 'crooked' cops


the proponsities of humans dont change because of their nationality or career of choice

my contention was only that it is SAD whatever side it happens on, with an awareness that it most certainly doesnt just happen to ONE side and not the other

Terror is the poor man's war, war is the rich man's terror. If the arabs weren't impoverished and terrorized by imperialist US/Israeli policy, they wouldn't attack. Even if they did feel the need to attack, they would declare war. Israel is a puppet state for US and European zionists. They need it because they can use the conflict to feed the war machine-this enriches the political elites and their cronies.

If the Israeli regime wants peace, they can have it if they just quit terrorizing Palestinians. It doesn't want peace-there's too much money in killing Palestinians, occupying Gaza, and suckling foreign aid from the US.

Tell ya what, I'll pay for half the ticket so you can fly to Israel then live there for one year and come back and tell us what terrible people the Jews are and how they are as responsible for what happens there. I have the money, I'll cover half the cost! In fact I dare you to go live there!

The Arabs impoverished?



Arab billionaires own 3.9% of Global Wealth.

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=6&section=0&article=79439&d=19&m=3&y=2006

There would be peace if the Palestinians simply stopped attacking and they would be living at peace in Gaza and 95% of the West Bank. They could be prosperous tomorrow and completely safe from Israeli attacks. But they choose to continue to attack Israel - Why?

It is not because they want an additional few square km of land. They want to deny the Israelis the right to live peacefully in their own state.

If Palestinians wanted peace they could have it today. Now even.
But they choose not to lay down their arms and Israel is forced
to defend herself. And everyone should support the Israelis if
you don't believe that we should have a world in which people who
disagree with each other politically should be allowed to simply
go into their home and stab them to death.

Israel would have no reason to defend themselves at all if the
terrorists lay down their arms. But don't take my word for it -
look at the history. Whenever there has been cessation of terrorist
attacks there has been prolonged peace and improvement in living
conditions on both sides.

I see this as the more balanced view of the conflict but then
again I am unbiased. I seek a real sustainable peace.

According to international reports there were celebrations among
Hamas and sponsored by Hamas in Gaza - partying because of the
massacre of a family. It is unpalatable, yes, but actually true.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e6_1299977724

http://undhimmi.com/2011/03/12/palestinians-hand-out-sweets-in-celebration-of-massacre-of-jewish-family/

http://markhumphrys.com/israel.conflict.crimes.html

It is vile but we must not shrink from the truth of what goes
on in the world. We must have open eyes and do our best to work
against those who would slaughter families as a form of protest.
These people are murderers who should be condemned and tracked
down by all people of conscience.

I have read this thread with interest. If you follow the in depth reports by Frontline, Nova, and other legitimate news sources that are interested in the "why" of the conflict over a period of years (in my case many) and talk to the people there (I have have long talks with a woman from Israel and my Palestinian college roommate), you see that slowhand is describing the actual conditions. There is a lot of propaganda that talks about the harm Israelis do but it is blown out of proportion and is generally out of context, especially the junk you see on youtube.

The Facts

Israel was created after WWII to give a homeland to the Jews. It was historically Jewish but has been occupied by several nations over millennia. It is fair and square to set new borders after a war and Israel is a nation. It is a fact the Arabs do not accept.

In 1967 the Arab nations did their best to destroy Israel. The Arabs lost. The losing country who attacked another usually has to give up rights and property (see Japan and WWII).

The Arabs are still trying to destroy Israel by shooting rockets into civilian areas, strapping on bombs, or just killing any civilian they can catch undefended.

Israel responds with troops doing EXACTLY what US troops are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq, i.e., try to find the terrorists and kill or capture them if they can. The fact that Hamas will launch a rocket from a heavily populated civilian area to make it harder for Israel to locate the terrorists and don't care if return fire kills civilians seems to be missed my many.

The Arabs dance in the street over the reported death of Israeli civilians, the Israelis do not.

The Arabs target civilians, the Israelis do not but do not hesitate to attack terrorist locations that have been the source of attacks.

To ascribe any sort of moral "equality" to these too different methods is insane. Every opportunity the Israelis have given the Arabs for peace in the way of cease fires has resulted in Hamas using the opportunity to bring in weapons (like rockets) to simply reload.

If an apartment complex continues to send rockets over the border into Israel, eventually Israel will send in dozers and demolish the place. This event is shown on liberal media as war crimes. The group support of the terrorists shooting the rockets with the support of the local community is rarely shown.

hogwash! such ABSOLUTE statements about what ISRAELIS dont do is hogwash.


Get your heads out of the sand people, seriously. Isrealis are not saints just because they are in Israel, their soldiers are not immune from committing atrocities. This has been going on for years, on that I will agree. I will disagree with whether or not any of us can DECIDE or dictate who started it or who gives the worst of it without being there. I know that I have read of atrocities on both sides, I have read about soldiers on both sides laughing about and celebrating deaths of innocents. I have no reason to believe one side and disregard the other completely.

good grief, I AM NOT THE ONE Making absolute statements on EITHER side. I did not once say ISRAELIS are terrible, I contend that there are those of ISRAELI nationality, in its armies, who do indeed do terrible things JUST As those of arab nationality do.

But the Israelis do not try to kill innocent women and children.

With Hamas, Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah and many of the other Palestinian groups their main goal is to kill innocent women and children.

There is a difference.

She does have a point.
Kill off the babies cuz, the'll grow into warriors.
And babies don't fight back.

Chomsky explains Israeli atrocities in greater detail (I'll dig up more later):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpw-h6WY8As

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30X2tYUGK_8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquR63iAgsg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dakfRJ-Nq_Y&feature=related

perhaps this is where the breakdown in communication is


this statement is like saying blacks dont kill people because of race (when indeed there are SOME black people who have done just that)

with KKK, traditionally, race is all thats necessary for them to justify atrocities(but this doesnt mean that ALL whites are guilty of justifying or committing atrocities)



its an apples and oranges comparison really, one is a type of group(race) and the other is a sub group of that group(kkk members)



Im not comparing murderers to non murderers, I am pointing out that BOTH israelis and non israelis have been guilty (amongst their more HATEFUL segments) of spilling innocent blood quite intentionally and brutally

Chomsky is ideologically opposed to Israel and harbors a deep hatred
for Israel so his point of view is not objective.

"In Noam Chomsky’s books, essays and public campaigns stretching back for decades, one theme is constant: his portrayal of the state of Israel as the focus of evil in the Middle East, a malevolent outlaw whose only redeeming feature is the readiness of its own left-wing intelligentsia to expose its uniquely horrifying depravity. His efforts began in the 1970s..."

http://www.acpr.org.il/ENGLISH-NATIV/04-issue/bogdanor-4.htm

This is definitely where the breakdown is occurring.



There is a qualitative difference between a group of terrorists
hijacking a number of civilian airliners and flying them into
buildings or a group of terrorists invading someones home and
slitting the throats of children and their parents while they
sleep versus a military operation where a group of soldiers tries
to track the people who have committed these acts of terrorism!

Even soldiers in warfare avoid civilian casualties. Murder of
innocent civilians are called war crimes because such acts are
considered to be to obscene/inhumane even for war.

Anyone who would accept that the 911 terrorists flying planes
into buildings is just as acceptable as military conflict would
say that we would be just as justified in taking thousands of
innocent people and simply murdering them in retaliation. This is
obviously absurd and we don't do it or anything like it. Instead,
we went after Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda and have been monitoring
them and destroying their organization and countering their
propaganda to try to prevent them from continuing to mount new
attacks on us. This is the appropriate, humane and reasonable
approach to counter the terrorists. Never killing innocent
people en masse.

This is the same approach that the Israelis have taken consistently
with regard to anti-Israel terrorist attacks. They have shown
tremendous and admirable restraint. Often waiting patiently until
they can target the terrorists specifically and warning civilians
with loudspeakers and leaflets to avoid areas of military operation
even when it diminishes the effectiveness of their efforts.

Duh! Hogwash is an absolute statement. Your lack of understanding of the point being made is absolute!

No one said individual acts of horror were not made on both side. The DIFFERENCE is that terrorism is the POLICY of one side and you can't see that.

which side would that be? TERRORISTS? which is different than non israelis,,,,which was my initial point

israelis and NON israelis are suffering terrible atrocities at the hands of the terrorists amongst them and it is just as sad if it happens to a non israeli as it is if it happens to an israeli

Im just curious why there is such opposition to my point , is that people think its not so bad if non israelis are massacred or tortured and killed or is it that they honestly cant fathom that it happens to non israelis?