DO YOU REALLY THINK THE GOVERMENT IS HOLDING BACK ON INFO??????
Boy if you can't beleive the Gov. then who can you trust????????
You'd better prepare because we all can't just bury our heads in the sand!!

Anything for you. discovermagazine.com/2008/jun/29-3-ideas-that-are-pushing-the-edge-of-science

However, it wouldn't be a big deal to go back in the past and make a mistake because someone else could always go back in the past and fix the mistake! Sorta like time cops!!!

With infinite realities to deal with, no one would care because there would always be that reality where the problem got fixed. This might just be the reality where the time travelers who got hit by cars had someone reappear a few seconds before to push them out of the way.

I wonder if this is the reality where I get a date?

In addition to the above post I made about the new theory (maybe they will start calling it twelve dimensional math?) with the added time dimension, here is some general information on the older eleven dimensional theory that most people are working on.

HandleWithCaution, Why do I think future time travelers would be creating mischief? Because that is what I would do.



Begin quote:

Parallel universes/alternate timelines

There could be "an ensemble of parallel universes" such that when the traveller kills the grandfather, the act took place in (or resulted in the creation of) a parallel universe in which the traveller's counterpart will never be conceived as a result. However, his prior existence in the original universe is unaltered.

Examples of parallel universes postulated in physics are:

* In quantum mechanics, the many-worlds interpretation suggests that every seemingly random quantum event with a non-zero probability actually occurs in all possible ways in different "worlds", so that history is constantly branching into different alternatives. The physicist David Deutsch has argued that if backwards time travel is possible, it should result in the traveler ending up in a different branch of history than the one he departed from.[3] See also quantum suicide and immortality.

* M-theory is put forward as a hypothetical master theory that unifies the six superstring theories, although at present it is largely incomplete. One possible consequence of ideas drawn from M-theory is that multiple universes in the form of 3-dimensional membranes known as branes could exist side-by-side in a fourth large spatial dimension (which is distinct from the concept of time as a fourth dimension) - see Brane cosmology. However, there is currently no argument from physics that there would be one brane for each physically possible version of history as in the many-worlds interpretation, nor is there any argument that time travel would take one to a different brane.

[edit] Theories in science fiction

[edit] Parallel universes resolution

The idea of preventing paradoxes by supposing that the time traveler is taken to a parallel universe while his original history remains intact, which is discussed above in the context of science, is also common in science fiction - see Time travel as a means of creating historical divergences.

[edit] Restricted action resolution
See also: Predestination paradoxes in fiction

Another resolution, of which the Novikov self-consistency principle can be taken as an example, holds that if one were to travel back in time, the laws of nature (or other intervening cause) would simply forbid the traveler from doing anything that could later result in their time travel not occurring. For example, a shot fired at the traveler's grandfather will miss, or the gun will jam, or misfire, or the grandfather will be injured but not killed, or the person killed will turn out to be not the real grandfather, or some other event will occur to prevent the attempt from succeeding. No action the traveler takes to effect change will ever succeed, as there will always be some form of "bad luck" or coincidence preventing the outcome. In effect, the traveler will be unable to change history from the state they found it. Very commonly in fiction, the time traveler does not merely fail to prevent the actions he seeks to prevent; he in fact precipitates them (see predestination paradox), usually by accident.

This theory might lead to concerns about the existence of free will (in this model, free will may be an illusion, or at least not unlimited). This theory also assumes that causality must be constant: i.e. that nothing can occur in the absence of cause, whereas some theories hold that an event may remain constant even if its initial cause was subsequently eliminated.

Closely related but distinct is the notion of the time line as self-healing. The time-traveler's actions are like throwing a stone in a large lake; the ripples spread, but are soon swamped by the effect of the existing waves. For instance, a time traveler could assassinate a politician who led his country into a disastrous war, but the politician's followers would then use his murder as a pretext for the war, and the emotional effect of that would cancel out the loss of the politician's charisma. Or the traveler could prevent a car crash from killing a loved one, only to have the loved one killed by a mugger, or fall down the stairs, choke on a meal, killed by a stray bullet, etc. In the 2002 film The Time Machine, this scenario is shown where the main character builds a time machine to save his girlfriend who got killed by a robber, yet she still dies, only from a car crash instead. In some stories it is only the event that precipitated the time traveler's decision to travel back in time that cannot be substantially changed, in others all attempted changes will be "healed" in this way, and in still others the universe can heal most changes but not sufficiently drastic ones. This is also the explanation advanced by the Doctor Who role-playing game, which supposes that Time is like a stream; you can dam it, divert it, or block it, but the overall direction it is headed will resume after a period of conflict.

It also may not be clear whether the time traveller altered the past or precipitated the future he remembers, such as a time traveller who goes back in time to persuade an artist—whose single surviving work is famous—to hide the rest of the works to protect them. If, on returning to his time, he finds that these works are now well-known, he knows he has changed the past. On the other hand, he may return to a future exactly as he remembers, except that a week after his return, the works are found. Were they actually destroyed, as he believed when he travelled in time, and has he preserved them? Or was their disappearance occasioned by the artist's hiding them at his urging, and the skill with which they were hidden, and so the long time to find them, stemmed from his urgency?

[edit] Destruction resolution

Some science fiction stories suggest that causing any paradox will cause the destruction of the universe, or at least the parts of space and time affected by the paradox. The plots of such stories tend to revolve around preventing paradoxes, such as the Back to the Future trilogy, or the final episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

[edit] Other considerations

Consideration of the grandfather paradox has led some to the idea that time travel is by its very nature paradoxical and therefore logically impossible, on the same order as round squares. For example, the philosopher Bradley Dowden made this sort of argument in the textbook Logical Reasoning, where he wrote:
“ Nobody has ever built a time machine that could take a person back to an earlier time. Nobody should be seriously trying to build one, either, because a good argument exists for why the machine can never be built. The argument goes like this: suppose you did have a time machine right now, and you could step into it and travel back to some earlier time. Your actions in that time might then prevent your grandparents from ever having met one another. This would make you not born, and thus not step into the time machine. So, the claim that there could be a time machine is self-contradictory. ”

However, some philosophers and scientists believe that time travel into the past need not be logically impossible provided that there is no possibility of changing the past, as suggested, for example, by the Novikov self-consistency principle. Bradley Dowden himself revised the view above after being convinced of this in an exchange with the philosopher Norman Swartz.[4]

Consideration of the possibility of backwards time travel in a hypothetical universe described by a Gödel metric led famed logician Kurt Gödel to assert that time might itself be a sort of illusion.[5][6] He seems to have been suggesting something along the lines of the block time view in which time does not really "flow" but is just another dimension like space, with all events at all times being fixed within this 4-dimensional "block".

[edit] See also

* Chronology protection conjecture
* Ontological paradox
* Time travel in fiction
* The chicken or the egg
* Temporal paradox
* Time loop

[edit] References

1. ^ Barjavel, René (1943). Le voyageur imprudent ("The imprudent traveller"). ; the book refers to an ancestor of the time traveller, not his grandfather.
2. ^ Horwich, Paul (1987). Asymmetries in Time. Cambridge, MIT Press. pp. 116.
3. ^ Deutsch, David (1991). "Quantum mechanics near closed timelike curves". Physical Review D 44: 3197–3217. doi:10.1103/PhysRevD.44.3197.
4. ^ "Dowden-Swartz Exchange". http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/time_travel1.htm.
5. ^ Yourgrau, Palle (2004). A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy Of Godel And Einstein. Basic Books. I[[SBN 0-465-09293-4}]].
6. ^ Holt, Jim (2005-02-21). "Time Bandits". The New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/printables/critics/050228crat_atlarge. Retrieved on 2006-10-19.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox"
Categories: Causality | Time travel | Physical paradoxes

. . . ....................DEAR METALWING ...............
O.H.....M.Y.....G.O.D!!!
.
I am ovewhelmed! I am speechless -- I am without words!!! And eternally greatfull to you for providing such a complete and exhaustive answer to my queuery -- especially the references... THANK YOU!
It will sure take some time for me to injest-chew-and-digest everything -- that sure is a mouth-full! ! ! (I hope I'd avoid choking on it!). As one of the guys in here condescendingly remarks (after reading something that's way over his head), "Interesting!"
I would go even further and state that is trully Amazing*** and Beautiful!!! (***AT FIRST SIGHT***)

Apparently, as you have proven to yourself, it would seem like the Past is etched in stone and cannot be altered! (Otherwise, "The Paradox Resolution Engine" would burn from overheatting!!!) LOL
However, the idea of sending the "cleaners" back -- to fix/resolve the paradoxes caused by each tourist -- may not be fiscally feasable because its very expensive, as I mentioned...

(I'm sorry but you leave me no choice except of reporting you to the authorities for being a high risk candidate -- planning to cause the mischief in the Past... LOL! BTW, the commitee I mentioned -- for verifying the candidate's siutability for time travel -- involves a deep brain scan which will flash out all of the unsiutable candidates (like yourself)... *** And that's too bad because I was counting on spending a weekend with you at the Unquenchable Gardens -- presently known as the Sahara Desert!!!

...................BUT.........(***AT SECOND SIGHT***)..............
* * * There's a major flaw in your thinking:
all of the indicated authoritative references only seem to confirm one point:
.
...................THE PRESENT DAY SCIENCE CONSIDERS TIME TRAVEL IMPOSSIBLE...............
.......................************************************************..................
Nevertheless, I'm surprized at you -- how could you (a scientific person) close your mind to the infinite possibilities the future might hold? ! ! ! Its only been half a cebtury since the Humanity began exploring the possibilities of the Impossible... (compared to the future discoveries, we're still at the Neanderthal stage of development!) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
What seems to be inconcievable today, "tomorrow might be elementary!

Perhaps I am a bit ignorant, but I am positive there will be many revisions of the current theories -- adding various exclusions and additions that will unite the Three Dimensional Model of space, i.e. Height, Length, Width, with the Temporal one -- thereby proving and implementing the Time travel! (perhaps, I'm too optimistic, though I am not referring to the next 5-10 years...)

I realize that's a pure speculation on my part, but isn't that how much of the breakthroughs have been / are accomplished? ? ? (by thinking "outside the box", "swimming against the flow", etc.)

... Nevertheless, fantazy aside, considering the fact of our confined living in the 3-dimensional universe, I am greatful to you for reminding me again of the fact that we're still the prisoners of our own imagination! ! !

I look forward to your reply! (but, please, take your time! I wouldn't want to rush you...)

P.S.
the reason, as you say, you cannot get a date is (I suspect) you're way too smart for the average woman... Pity, but it would seem like you would have to play it down a bit -- otherwise, you might be scarring them away with your superior intellect...
(i.e. by no means do I suggest for you to play a person with the Down syndrom! ! ! LOL God avod!)

Handlewithcaution, Gee. Where on earth did you get the idea I have closed my mind to the possibility of time travel? Present day science can't do for several reasons but they still can't do it. That does not mean I think it is impossible. I have seen major changes in technology in my own lifetime. As for the "fixit" crew being too expensive, souvenirs bring an awfully good price in the future (where is that other sock anyway?)

As for you reporting me, my mischief making is quite well known. No one would be surprised. "Outside the box" is a relatively new term for lateral thinking. Certain groups, trades, races, etc., are known to be linear thinkers and a few lateral. Lateral is now taught (rather encouraged) because it solves problems which simply don't get solved in a linear way. A good example is Asian engineers which, due to their society, are notorious for being linear thinkers. They can pursue a taught path with the best but have difficulty being truly technically original. The classic case of lateral thinking is Yankee ingenuity. Time travel is just a problem that has not been solved yet. The main problems deal with transference of theoretical math to functional effect. Imagine inventing the electric motor before wire and magnets were available.

Uniting the first four dimensions is a piece of cake. The next six are the problem. M theory is slowly gelling to provide that mathematical model where we understand the weakness of gravity, the nature of matter, the certainty of quantum uncertainty.

The comment about getting a date was actually a joke. My problem is finding the person with which I would like to spend the rest of my life.

Send me an email and we can chat. You have all over 100 miles blocked. These threads are not the best place for one on one conversations.

. . . . . . . . .METALWING:
.
I an sincerely sorry for making public the private matters that concern only you!

My full response is going to be private, from now on! ! !

You are a peach! I'll look forward to it.

. . . . . F.O.O.D....F.O.R....T.H.O.U.G.H.T
* * * * *Regarding the ancient sstronauts* * * * * * *
there's a catastrophic depletion of content of the dissolved oxigen in the world ocean, posing the gravest danger for the marine life...

***Apparently, the reason for the dinosaurs' extinction had been nothing more but a simple suffocation which has had resulted from the changing climate... (vulcanic activity, radiation, etc.)

I recently read an article published by scientists from Berkley University -- Robert Rode and Richard Mueller -- who've estimated that, for the last 542 million years, the variation of the planet's bio-diversity has occurred every 62 - 65 million of years!
While another scientist from the Kansas University, Andrew Melott, confirmed their findings AND suggested that such a regularity is connected to the movement of the solar system around the center of our galaxy -- thereby varying the level of space radiation...
**************************************************
* * * Now I finally comprehend why some scientists state that our's is the FIFTH civilization on the planet -- there had been 4 others prior to our's! ! !
**************************************************
(Have all of the previous civilizations been hijacked by the aliens while the Earth is travelling around the center of th Milky Way?) Or they miss the cradle of Mother Earth? ? ?)

Far in the past before Atlantis existed,
men there were who delved into darkness,
using dark magic, calling up beings
from the great deep below us.
Forth came they into this cycle.
Formless were they of another vibration,
existing unseen by the children of earth-men.
Only through blood could they have formed being.
Only through man could they live in the world.

In ages past were they conquered by Masters,
driven below to the place whence they came.
But some there were who remained,
hidden in spaces and planes unknown to man.
Lived they in Atlantis as shadows,
but at times they appeared among men.
Aye, when the blood was offered,
for they came they to dwell among men.

In the form of man they amongst us,
but only to sight were they as are men.
Serpent-headed when the glamour was lifted
but appearing to man as men among men.
Crept they into the Councils,
taking forms that were like unto men.

Slaying by their arts
the chiefs of the kingdoms,
taking their form and ruling o'er man.
Only by magic could they be discovered.
Only by sound could their faces be seen.
Sought they from the Kingdom of shadows
to destroy man and rule in his place.

But, know ye, the Masters were mighty in magic,
able to lift the Veil from the face of the serpent,
able to send him back to his place.
Came they to man and taught him the secret,
the WORD that only a man can pronounce.
Swift then they lifted the Veil from the serpent
and cast him forth from the place among men.

Yet, beware, the serpent still liveth
in a place that is open at times to the world.
Unseen they walk among thee
in places where the rites have been said.
Again as time passes onward
shall they take the semblance of men.

...
CONSPIRACY THEORY IS SUCH A BORE,
IT MAKES ME SLEEPY -- SORRY FOR THE SNORE...
I'M GONNA CRASH IT WITH A CAIN!
i BEG YOUR PARDON, BUT TOUR ARGUMEN'S IN VAIN!!!

I BEG YOUR PARDON, BUT YOUR ARGUMENT'S IN VAIN!!!

SILLY THREATS ARE SUCH A BORE

SUCH COMMENTS ONLY MAKE ME SNORE.

THE RECENT POSTINGS ARE ALL IN VAIN,

I THINK THAT RHYMING GAMES ARE SO LAME.

SO PARDON ME,AS I TAKE MY LEAVE.

ITS BETTER TO GIVE THAN TO RECIEVE.

As you can see, misstina2, you effectively killed a great thread!

And then there is Antarctica. Orange peel theory of earth's crust, etc. Last possible know resting place of ancient astronauts.

Was there a prehistoric civilization in Antarctica?
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After WW II, scientists started to pay attention to the issue of supposedly once-existing civilization in Antarctica. The hypothesis is confirmed by some medieval maps and researches of paleogeologists and glaciologists. </b><br>
In January 1820, lieutenant of Russian Empire Fleet, Mikhail Lazarev discovered the new continent. In the beginning of 20th century, a Russian encyclopaedia, while adducing approximate square of south pole continent, reported it was insufficiently explored and there was no flora and fauna. The author of the article also noticed the
Antarctica waters richness of algae and sea animals.


In about 20 years, the Istanbul National Museum director, Khalil Edkhem was sorting out the library of Byzantine emperors in the old sultan palace. He found an ancient map made on gazelle skin there. On the map, there was the West and South Africa shores and the northern shore of Antarctica. Khalil could not believe his own eyes: the shore of the Queen Mod Land, to the south from 70th parallel was free of ice. The ancient cartographer had marked a mountain chain there. The name of the cartographer was known: the admiral of the Ottoman Empire fleet, Piri Reis, who lived in the first half of 16th century.
The map authenticity was without doubt. Some graphology examinations of the notes on the margin confirmed they belonged to the admiral.
In 1949, the united expedition of Britain and Sweden carried out an intensive seismic prospecting of the South Pole continent through the ice cap. According to the commander of 8th technical investigation squadron of the US Armed Force Strategic Command, colonel Harold Olmayer from July 6, 1960, “geographical details of the bottom part of the map (the Antarctica shore) correspond with the results of the seismic prospecting. We cannot correlate these data with the supposed level of geography in 1513.”

In his notes on the map margin, made in the early 16th century, Piri Reis explained he was not responsible for the cartography and that the map was based on some earlier sources. Some of these “earlier sources” belong to his contemporaries (for example, to Christopher Columbus), while others could be dated with 4th century B. C. Not later, because one of these sources belonged to Alexander of Macedonia, who lived namely in this epoch.

Of course, professional historians specialized in ancient history could say: “This is only one more operational hypothesis. And what about documentary and, which is desirable, trust-worthy sources? The opinion of the Turkish admiral, notes on the margin… You know, it is too disputable!”

So, I would like to present the position of the already late science historian, professor of Keene College in New Hampshire, USA, Charles H. Hapgood. Already in the late 1959, he found in Washington Congress Library a map made up by Orontheus Phynius in 1531. Orontheus Phynius pictured Antarctica with mountains and rivers, without glaciers. The relief of the continent central part was not marked, which, according to Hapgood, could mean that there had been ice cap in that area.

In the early 1960s, the map of Phynius was studied by the Massachusetts Technology Institute doctor Richard Stratchen together with Hapgood. Both scientists concluded that Phynius had really pictured the Antarctica shores free of ice. The shore counters and characteristic features of the relief are really close to the information about the covered with ice surface of the continent, which was mapped in 1958 by specialists from different countries.
Apropos, Gerard Cremer, known in the world as Mercator, also trusted the Orontheus evidence. He included the Phynius map into his atlas, where there were several Antarctica maps of Mercator himself. There is one interesting feature: in the Mercator map made in 1569, the west shore of South America is pictured less accurately, than in the earlier map of Mercator from 1538. The reasons of this contradiction are following: while working at the earlier map, the cartographer of 16th century proceeded from ancient sources which were not kept till our time, and while working at the later map, he proceeded from observations of first Spanish investigators of South America. The mistake of Gerard Mercator could be excused. In 16th century, there were no precise methods to measure longitude: as a rule, the error could have made hundreds of kilometres!

And, finally, Philippe Boiche, full member of French Academy of Science. In 1737, he published his map of Antarctica. Boiche presented the precise Antarctica picture of the time when the continent was free of ice. In his map, the under-ice topography of the continent is presented about which our civilization (which is supposed to be born not earlier than in fourth millenium B. C.) had no clear idea till 1958. Moreover, basing on now-lost sources, the French academician pictured in the middle of the South Pole continent a water space dividing it in two sub-continents which were situated to the west and to the east from the line, where now Trans-Antarctic Mountains are marked. According to the investigation in the framework of International Geophysical Year (1958), Antarctic which is pictured as one continent in up-to-date maps is in fact an archipelago of big islands covered with 1.5-kilometre ice.

Summing up

Medieval maps show Antarctica without ice cap or partially covered with ice. The precision of the 16th century cartographer estimations is very high and even surprising as for some positions. Their data surpasses technical possibilities even of the late Middle Ages (for example, determination of the modern relief longitude to within one minute). This level of engineering was reached by humankind at least in the late 18th century, while in some questions – even in the 20th.
B. Scientists cannot comment on the very high scientific level of medieval cartography. Information about almost 2000-year-old firstprimary sources are supposed to be not well-founded. While the position of today’s cartographers based upon scientific estimations in the field of natural history is supposed to be incompetent.
C. Orthodox geology agrees with such statement of the question, while saying the age of the Antarctica ice cap could be estimated at least as 25 million of years. However, recently this estimation was reduced to 6 million. Though, even such amendment has already got an academic character.

Therefore, we should notice following feature of the Reis map: the shore of the continent was free of ice. In the Phynius map made in 18 years after the Reis map, there is an ice cap around South Pole within the limits of 80th and somewhere of 75th parallel. 200 years later, academician Boiche pictured Antarctica without glaciers.
The conclusion is obvious: we can see the process of glaciation of the southern continent.

In 1949, the admiral Baird expedition carried boring of Ross Sea in three spots, where Orontheus Phynius marked river-beds. In the cuts, fine-grained layers were found, obviously brought to the sea with rivers, whose sources situated in temperate latitudes (i.e. free of glaciers).

While using nuclear dating method of doctor U. Oury from Karnegy Institute in Washington, scientists found out precisely that the Antarctica rivers which were sources of fine-dyspersated deposits were flowing, as shown in the Phynius map, about 6,000 years ago. In about 4000 year B. C., sediments of glacial type started to accumulate on the bottom of Ross Sea. Kernels show that before it, there was a long warm period.

Therefore, the maps of Reis, Phynius, Mercator present Antarctica of the time, when ancient Egyptian and Shumer civilizations were newborn. This point of view is excluded by almost all professional historians and could be regarded as an operating hypothesis which cannot be verified. Any historian would say that there were no civilization of the kind in the late 5th millenium B. C. While according to doctor Jacob Hock from Illinois University, the deposits in-question could be 6 to 12 thousand years old. Therefore, this question should be considered by paleontologists whose activity is out of the framework of historic science.

In September 1991, US and Egyptian archaeologists discovered at a distance of 13 km from Nile River, in Abidos, 12 big boats which belonged to Pharaohs of First Dynasty. The age of the boats is about 5,000 years. They are supposed to be the most ancient vessels in the world, the leader of the expedition, D. O’Connor from Pennsylvania University says. So far, the find is estimated to be aimed for religious rites.

According to Herodotus, ancient Egyptians had observed stars within more than 10,000 years. This statement of the “father of history” is supposed to be esoteric and, therefore, not true. Though, land nations seldom born astronomers. The fact that ancient Egyptians were interested in astronomy may witness that they inherited some knowledge from unknown civilization of navigators.

Apropos, workers of US technical intelligence determined the projection centre of the Piri Reis map whose data belongs to 4000 year B. C. The projection centre was supposedly situated near to today’s Cairo. At that time, according to most of historians, all then-existing nations were on a very low level of development.

Further Conclusions

A. Between 5th and 10th milleniums B. C., there was a civilization on Earth which possessed great knowledge in the field of navigation, cartography, and astronomy, which was not lower than that one from 18th century.

B. This civilization preceded our civilization and it was not an extraterrestrial one. Its age could be several thousands years, while its situation was probably in the northern shore of the most southern continent, or archipelago – Antarctica, where there was a temperate climate. Later, this civilization may have resettled to the north-east of Africa.

The reason of the civilization death is the glaciation of Antarctica – the process which started not earlier than in 10th millenium B. C. It cannot be excluded that there were also large-scale floods, which were too regular and cause long-term local deluges (this is confirmed by archaeologists). These disasters could have destroy most of the objects of the civilization material culture. While some fragments could be found in the future under the thickness of ice. Though, it could be assumed that the survivors from Antarctica kept and handed over some knowledge to ancient Egyptians and probably to the Shumer.
So, after some expanded archaeologist investigation which at long last reaches Antarctica, human kind could be surprised with its results.

I beg your pardon, Are those MASTURBATING BANANAS? ? ?

uh - what was this thread about again?


Jason and the Argonauts?

Oh, dear, thanks god you are back! I thought you have deserted me, or found somebody else to share your intellectual juices with...
This article alone earns you a very special treatment in my "Academy of Erotic Pleasure"!!! It is written in a manner of a highly skilled master of eroticizm:
... slowly building the thrill of the unknown and increasing the temptation of the enlightment, yet forever distancing the culmination... (driving me ever so near to the climax!)

. . . BRAVO, WELL DONE ! ! !

So, that's where the encient civilization of Atlantis has been located! WOW! Humanity is sure in for a great discovery * * * (that will sure drive the redefinition of the major beliefs!!!

I hope you will keep me (all of us) posted:
as I mentioned, I came ever so close to the "culmination"... (but still couldn't cum!)
Anyway, I AM GREATFUL TO YOU !!!

P.S. Can't comrehend Holly#### who doesn't see how exciting that is..