A jury weighs a "body of evidence". In some cases the flood of false statements wins the case but our system is based on twelve average Americans being able to start out ignorant but not remain that way after they have listened carefully to all sides in an organized way. At that point, they are no longer ignorant by definition.

The fact that you make ignorant comments about what you think my qualifications are without understanding the body of evidence studied is the equivalent of saying "all jurors are ignorant and should not be able to make decisions of law." Some of the best hard evidence of visitation from outer space has come from US astronauts in space and was documented and recorded. I did not conclude that "aliens" built Macchu Piccu. I concluded man could not have built it with the technology known to be in his possession. A lot of highly trained engineers and scientists agree with me.

Your argument is a bit like "global warming doesn't really exist because there is no real proof."

Perhaps if you read more you would find things you haven't learned yet. SciFi has been produced for many years and has predicted many of the items and events we know today. Many of the concepts of space travel fall into this category. Star Trek was very good about using real consultants from the aerospace industry to help the writers use realistic models for ships, engines, concepts, etc. Yes it is fiction but science fiction is based on science. If it is not it is called fantasy. I know the difference.

I hope Billy has been taught a lesson to respect the opinions of the others -- without being sarcastic and making fun of their comments (without adding anything -- an alternative view -- to the discussion except of his sarcazm), thereby humiliating himself by pretending to be a "Know-it-all"...
In continuing the discussion,I'd like to propose the article I've published in the other boring thread, regarding the question of Evolution and Religion -- amazingly, it turns back to aliens...

. . . HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS, ladies & gents:
. . . ------------------------------------
Religion had been passed down through the ages -- each one revising & editing the previous stories (especially when copied manually, or from the words of the story-tellers…) And, as such, might’ve undergone much changes(?)

I suppose, even slightly evolved prehistoric “people” – X for short, or Y, if you prefer -- (possessing some primitive faculties of Observation) might’ve noticed the regularity of events that often occurred as the result of their desires/wishes:
I THIRSTY! – vu-ala: it starts to rain, filling the “cups” with water…
I HUNGRY! -- … look around: the trees are full of frits…
Eventually, they’d learnt to be provident and save the food & water for the period when those disappear (for some unknown reason) – especially when it gets cold and the sky starts crying with tears (i.e.rain)… But when those supplies get destroyed – either by natural disaster, or stolllen by another not-so-prudent tribe – the X would go hungry, roaming the woods in search of food, thinking: “Oh, if only I could find something to eat…” (sorry, I’ve forgotten the prehistoric dialect, LOL) …In desperation, X would raise the hands (fists clenched) and cry out: I THIRSTY! I HUNGRY! Somebody HELP ME!!!
(***…that’s been the 1st PRAYER!) And, sometimes, due to the pure coincidence, the wind would blow – the trees begin to swing, dropping down the out of reach fruits…
And, eventually, the X have observed the regularity:
GO TO THE WOODS, STAND UNDER THE TREE, STRETCH YOUR HANDS UP, AND PRONOUNCE A SUPPLICATION (addressed to Whatever)… And your prayer will be fulfilled!!!
(In time, the "Whatever" has evolved into the personified being…)
*** That, in essence, is how the pagan religion has been born! . . . . . *******************************

Another prehistoric tribe (Y) which lived by the sea, have prayed to a different God – to send them fish… And both tribes had often attacked each other – because they considered each other as pagan! (That tradition has been carried throughout the history! . .)

In the midst of it all, there appeared a man, claiming to be the son of God, who’s proclaimed: “Stop this paganism! GOD IS ONE!!!”
(hence, the birth of Christianity!)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____________________________________
In essence, the religion remains a DOGMA – a doctrine accepted as true without questions!

EVOLUTION, on the other hand, is a scientific theory – seemingly credible and generally accepted… But still JUST A THEORY nonetheless * * *

Our comprehension of the World still depends to the great degree upon the level of our development that often undergoes revisions and modifications – just as we laugh at the scientists of the middle ages, our 4th-5th generation descendants might laugh at our views… And, who knows, I wouldn’t be surprised if, some day, it would be discovered that Adam & Eve have been planted on this Earth from the outer space . . . (the seed) * * * * * * * *

P.S. Even as deeply religious person, as Darwin, couldn’t defy the power of observing the regularities of the species’ evolvement – hence the Theory of Evolution which, from his point of view, could co-exist with the “Fact” of Creation!

While there may be some possiblity that ancient aliens visted earth, the idea that they are currently playing soap opera games with human politics is truly unrealistic.

Also, the idea that they could breath earthy air would be a miracle beyond miracles. And to think that they could actually genetically breed with humans is nothing more than sci-fi comic book material.

This absurdity is the very idea that aliens would find humans to be anything more than a passing curiousity. If they have the technology of intersteller travel (or intergalactic travel) then their technology would be so far advanced to ours that we would seem like ameobas to them.

The idea that they would be interested in intervening in our politics or using us as slaves or even for food is truly so unrealistic that it makes no sense at all. If we had the technology to zip around intersteller space at will, creating food and robots would be no problem at all. We would have no need to pray on some other cultures in the universe for either food or political.

It's an idea that makes for good sci-fi movies and comic books, but it just isn't the slightest bit realisitic from a practical point of view.

Moreover, if the vast majority of humans are totally unware that these aliens exist then it isn't even a major factor in life. If the aliens are using us for slaves or for food, the vast majority of us haven't been enslaved or eaten. So the threat doesn't seem to be very profound.

I think human greed, stupidity, and overpopulation can account for all of humanities troubles. No need to appeal to the Draconians as an excuse. Humans are quite capable of enslaving themselves on their own. We have no need for any help from any aliens in that department.

That's actually a false statement that is perpetuated by Creationists.

Like all of science ideas begin as theories. But once the theories are understood and investigated they often become far more than that.

The recognition that life evolved on earth over billions of years began as an idea (a theory), but has since been discovered to be true.

There is no question that life has evolved from very simple organisms to much more complex organisms over millions of years. The evidence for evolution is OVERWHELMING.

To claim that it's "Just a Theory" in this day and age is truly ludicous.

That's an old saying that simply isn't true anymore.

This would be like saying that it's "Just a Theory" that Earth and all the other planets actually orbit the sun.

It would be the same as saying the Time Dilation is "Just a Theory" of Relativity. Sorry, that's not true anymore. Time Dilation has been MEASURED, it's a REAL OBSERVED PROPERTY of the universe now.

Yet, we still call Relativity a "Theory" in spite of the FACT that it's predictions have been observationally and experimentally verified.

Same thing goes with "Quantum Theory". Many of the predictions of quantum theory have been experimentally verified and observed to be true. Yet we still call it a "Theory".

Some think is true of Einstens theory that Energy and Mass are interchangeble. The famous E=mc². Yet, it's no longer just a 'theory', it's been shown to be true via the atomic bomb as well as nuclear power stations and nuclear powered ships.

The same thing is true of evolution. It's no longer "Just a Theory". The EVIDENCE is IN! And has been in for some time now.

The fossil records are crystal clear that life on Earth evolved from very simple forms to far more complex forms over many millions of years.

The laboratory evidence of Bibology, Chemistry and Physics all back it up showing how the mechanisms of Evolution actually work.

Sure, they haven't completed every single little detail, but that's not going to erase the fossile records.

LIFE EVOLVED ON PLANET EARTH!

You can take that to the bank as a FACT - not "just a theory".

It's actually a total falsehood to say that it's 'Just a Theory'. That's actually a lie whether told on purpose or through pure ignorance. Either way it's still false.

Your opinion is based on what? Your lack of knowledge of what an "alien" is?

Why do you think that aliens (of any kind) would not breathe "earthly air?"

Didn't dinosaurs breath earthly air? How long did dinosaurs roam the earth anyway? A lot longer than humans that's for sure. If humans could breathe earthly air and evolve into modern man in such a short time why is is not feasible that a reptilian creature could evolve into an intelligent humanoid? Hense, the reptilian race or snake people.

Reptilian life could have easily evolved on other planets too. The fact that we originally came from the sea actually lends more credibility to anything coming from the ocean being more amphibious or reptilian-like. How a warm blooded animal like us evolved from the sea is more hard to believe and improbable.

To call the idea "absurd" is absurd.

I am quite surprised at your limited imagination Abra. You write such great fantasy and you believe in spirits. Why is this such a stretch for you? What are you just kidding yourself then?

Actually humans and aliens can be very much alike in their physical development. It is their spiritual path and their spiritual evolution that could be very different.

I am not making claims as Billy would call it. I am considering what might be real possibilities. To rule anything out is to close the door to truth.

I would love to have "proof" myself. But its like trying to prove in alternate realities. I think the proof is there, people just ignore it and shut it out.

Some people have their own proof. Some have seen and spoken to aliens. Many report being raped by them, abducted by them etc. Hundreds and thousands of people, not just a few. All these people are insane? Lieing? Under government mind control? What? I would like real answers to those questions if aliens don't exist. Real answers, on a case by case basis.

Here is an article I wrote under my alias (a pen name for ranting)

Do extraterrestrials exist?

By Jackie Tracer Hunt
http://www.springfieldcolorado.com/aliens.html

For some people the argument is still, "do extraterrestrial aliens exist?" But that argument stays in the company of people who really do not want to know. They just simply say "No of course not." But there are a lot of educated people who say that they do exist, and many who know they do exist, and there are a few who even talk about it openly. For them, the question of whether or not aliens exist is ridiculous. Of course they do. Their entire lives and occupations involve aliens, UFO's abductees etc.

Forget the question of whether UFO'S and Aliens are here among us. The big argument going on in the UFO/alien community is whether they are benign or malevolent. Or simply: Are the aliens trying to uplift mankind or are they out to take control of the world so that they can make slaves of us and eat us in public without fear of an uprising of human resistance.

UFO researchers Doctor Richard Boylan Ph.D., LLC and Doctor Michael E. Salla, Ph.D have argued about who is spreading disinformation and who is not in a high-toned indignant "I'm-a-better researcher than you" discussion on Internet forums and their posts appeared in clubs around the Internet UFO communtiy.

I am a curious sort; so I spent the evening reading this stuff and trying to figure out who these so-called experts are in the scheme of things, and what roll they play in, what I refer to as, "The End Game." I will give you my 'quick and dirty' assessment of these two people at the end of the article, but here is what they publish about themselves on their web sites:

"Dr. Richard J. Boylan is a Ph.D. behavioral scientist,anthropologist, university associate professor (emeritus), certified clinical hypnotherapist, consultant, researcher and author. He provides hypnotherapy for recalling full details of partially-remembered close encounters with the Star Visitors, and for exploring previous life experiences stored in subconscious memory. Information about Dr. Richard J. Boylan and his projects can be found at http://www.drboylan.com/ "

(Jackie) ~~In short, Boylan claims that the Aliens are benevolent, and he believes they are an advanced civilization from the stars,and that most humans are "less evolved" and that the aliens or the "watchers" as he calls them, are here to protect us. He believes there is order, fairness and law in what he calls the "Inter-galactic Federation. He is or claims to be an experiencer (or abductee, however you want to call it.) who has had alien encounters himself, and he works with Alien-human hybrid children in a program he calls "Star Kids." Here is a quote from his website:

"We humans are not the "bad guys", but we have some less-evolved persons in our midst. That is the way it is in the universe as well, we are told. However, the difference is that the less-evolved cultures on other planets are not permitted by the Inter-Galactic Federation to roam the galaxy freely and cause havoc on vulnerable planetary populations, such as us."

(Jackie) ~~Now here is the Information on Salla'a website about him: (I did not not write this stuff, I am just bringing it to your attention. My assessment will be at the bottom of this article.

"Dr. Michael Salla holds a current position as a 'researcher in Residence,' Center for Global Peace, American University Washinton D.C. and was previously an Assistant Professor 1996 -2001) in the International Peace and Conflict Resolution Division, School of International Service, American University. He recently completed his fourth book, The Hero's Journey Toward a Second American Century, and has had over 70 articles, books reviews, and opinion pieces published on topics covering peacebuilding, nonviolence and conflict resolution. For more information go to his site, http://www.american.edu/salla/home-PA.htm

The Peace Ambassador Program is a seven day summer program that combines study, meditative practices, and prayer ceremonies at American University and selected Washington DC sites aimed at promoting individual self-empowerment and enlightened national governance in Washington DC. The program provides an opportunity for participants to experience personal spiritual growth through preparing for and integrating higher dimensional energies, while simultaneously helping transform the world's center of political and military power in order to usher in an era of global peace and divine governance on planet Earth.

The Program is situated within the Center for Global Peace, American University. Participants will discover the hidden spiritual potential in the configuration of the Washington DC grid system, the significance of key political symbols such as Congress, the White House, the Washington monument, Lincoln Memorial; the hidden function of the greater Washington beltway, and preparing for how to best respond to the influx of higher dimensional energies that have a great potential for transforming life on our planet. At the end of the program, participants will become Peace Ambassadors for creating individual and global peace, and activating enlightened national/divine governance around the planet.

(Jackie) ~~Okay that is the end of my quotes from their web sites. Now for the fun part.

My assessment: Dr. Richard Boylan is what some call a "White Lighter." He loves and worships aliens. He sees only (or mostly) good and benevolent Aliens. He boasts of his behavioral scientist education and pushes it to the limit. Telling Salla that he lacks the academic background to conduct valid "behavioral science" research into "Star Visitor" contacts with "experiencers" which he says is the core of what constitutes information about the "Star Nations."

My assessment of Dr. Michael Salla is what I will call a pawn of the "Powers that be" who hide behind the guise of promoting peace but actually are furthering the agenda of a New World Order with a One World Government controlled by, "them," whoever "they" are. ( I might add that I once read a quote attributed to Henry Kissinger to this effect: "You have a right to be paranoid, because there is a "they" and "they" are out to get us.")

Salla said that in his Study Paper #7 he argued that policy makers became very aware of these diverse extraterrestrial races and decided to respond using a strategic doctrine known as "power politics" or real politik as championed by Dr. Henry Kissinger and his supporters in the secret national security system set up to respond to the extraterrestrial presence.

( Jackie ~"Secret National security system?" What might that be, the CIA? The NSA? The black Ops? The men in black? The "Above Top Secret" guys we don't even have any initials for?)

Richard Broylan countered by pointing out that Kissinger is an indicted international war criminal, and he hinted that that statement pretty much settles what side Salla is working for. Dr. Salla gives credit to Dr. Kissinger as being the "master strategist" for managing the extraterrestrial presence and who was the special focus in his study paper. To which Dr. Broylan responded (in a post on his club):

" Now your true political sentiments surface. Your International war criminal friend Herr Kissinger was the "master strategist" who created the VietNam War debacle that mired the U.S. in its longest war, with the greatest GI deaths, and the only war the U.S. lost. We don't need fascists designing the official engagement policy of human society with the Star Visitors."

My assessment (from a non-academic non-scientific, non-abductee standpoint:)

Jackie ~~ Okay, now let me tell you why I think Dr. Salla is a pawn of the New World Order crowd, Here is a quote of Henry Kissinger : "Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful. This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government."

Henry Kissinger speaking at Evian, France, May 21, 1992 Bilderbergers meeting. Unbeknownst to Kissinger, his speech was taped by a Swiss delegate to the meeting.

Note he said "a threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated" so even if the public is just fooled into believing that we are being attacked by Alien beings from some other planet, they will gladly hand over all of their freedoms and individual rights for the guarantee of safety and the New World Order would step into power.

Now personally I do not believe that these non-human intelligent life forms (aliens) are more "spiritually evolved" than we humans. They certainly have the technology, but they don't have compassion, love or wisdom. (I am speaking of the preditorial reptilian aliens here, I don't want to insult any of you good aliens out there who might be really nice guys and gals who don't eat human flesh and drink blood.)

For Salla, you can translate "Global peace" into "One World Government" and you can translate "Divine governance" into "One World Religion" with perhaps a dictator (alien) who is considered to be a God, ruling over the earth. (To be fair, they really do want "peace." Its why they want it and how they go about getting it that is wrong.)

But the battle between these two researchers is strictly an ego thing for now. They have no real conflict because they are on the same side and don't even realize it. Salla is clearly promoting a One World Government which will, he claims, ultimately be ruled by a (non-human or Alien) leader who will be worshiped as a God, ("Divine governance") and Broylan is promoting love (and worship) of these so-called advanced alien beings who "are here to protect us."

As for Doctor Broylan, well, he's just been sleeping with the enemy too long. Abducted, implanted and programmed to do public relations to convince humans that the aliens are only here to help us. To be fair, some of them might be. But Dr. Broylan really wants you to believe that they all are. He even makes excuses for the nasty stories he hears about bad aliens and blames it on government mind control and propaganda.

Salla, on the other hand, probably realizes that there are some bad-ass aliens out there in control and he just wants to make peace with them because he knows he can't beat them in a fight. ("There is a THEY and THEY are out to get us.")

I can easily visualize the day when these two men will come together in their support of a One World Government ruled by a (god-like) non-human/alien. They will be at a seminar smiling and shaking hands with each other for a photo-op while pledging their lives to their new alien god.

So are there any such things as extraterrestrials or aliens from Orion? I really don't know by personal experience. But I suspect that not everyone you meet on the street is as human as they look. I believe there are many non-human intelligent life forms on this planet. I know people (more than you would suspect) who swear that they were abducted.

I met a man in Lamar just a few months ago who claimed to be a "repeater" (an abductee taken more than once, and put back.) He described many different kinds of aliens that he had seen and some horrible things that they had done to him. Yet he was still so confused that he denied that they had "abducted" him. I asked him, "When they took you, did you have a choice in the matter?" He said no. I told him, "That means that you were abducted against your will. They are not your friends." He asked me, "Who told you that?" I said, "They abducted you against your will. They are not your friends." For some reason he had difficulty understanding the reasoning in that. If they were friendly aliens, would they be going around abducting and doing painfull experiments on humans without their consent? Everytime I told him, "They are not your friends." (and I told him that at least five times) he asked me, "Who told you that?" It was quite strange if you ask me. It gave me the willies.

Dr. Boylan calls himself and others who have been abducted "experiencers." I wonder if they had a choice in the matter. Even today our modern medicine has a drug that will remove several hours of your memory. That is a scary thing. If we have it I am sure they have it too. How do you know what happened to you if you have had that drug?

My conclusion: We are not alone. We may not even be at the top of the food chain.

Jackie Tracer Hunt

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were claiming that they are imaginary.

Yes, I can imagine Draconians as well as anyone.

I mistakenly thought that you were attempting to claim that they actually exist. I knew that combining science and philosophy into a single forum would cause confusion.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yes, I have no problem at all with imaginary Draconians. I have a bunch of them sitting right here with me as I type.

Thats very cool JB. I like the stuff you write about. You have a gift.

QFT.


The distinction bears repeating.

W W EEEEE L L DD OO N N EEEEE
W W E L L D D O O NN N E
W W W EEEE L L D D O O N N N EEEE
W W W W E L L D D O O N N N E
WW WW E L L D D O O N N N E
W W EEEEE LLLL LLLL DD OO N N EEEEEEE, Jeanie!!!


STICK IT TO HIM! ! !


THANK YOU!

Sorry, Jeanie, I was trying to spell the phrase "WELL DONE" in large letters but forgot that blanks aren't counted as characters...

W........W..EEEEEE..LLL.....LLL......DDDD.....OOO....N....N..EEEEE
W........W..E........L.......L.......D...D...O...O...NN...N..E
W....W...W..EEEE.....L.......L.......D....D..O...O...N.N..N..EEEE
W...W.W..W..E........L.......L.......D....D..O...O...N..N.N..E
W..W...W.W..E........L.......L.......D...D...O...O...N...NN..E
WW......WW..EEEEEE...LLLLLL..LLLLL...DDDD.....OOO....N....N..EEEEEE,

JEANIE, STICK IT TO HIM! ! !

Gaps in contemporary knowledge of the past are not evidence that ancient astronaut ideas are a plausible conclusion. There is no evidence to support ancient astronaut or "paleocontact" theories. It is all hyberbolic conjecture of the Oooooo Oooooo Oooooo variety.



The 1991 Ig Nobel Prize Winners

CHEMISTRY
Jacques Benveniste, prolific proseletizer and dedicated
correspondent of "Nature," for his persistent discovery that
water, H2O, is an intelligent liquid, and for demonstrating to his
satisfaction that water is able to remember events long after all
trace of those events has vanished.

MEDICINE
Alan Kligerman, deviser of digestive deliverance, vanquisher of
vapor, and inventor of Beano, for his pioneering work with anti-
gas liquids that prevent bloat, gassiness, discomfort and
embarassment.

EDUCATION
J. Danforth Quayle, consumer of time and occupier of space, for
demonstrating, better than anyone else, the need for science
education.

BIOLOGY
Robert Klark Graham, selector of seeds and prophet of propagation,
for his pioneering development of the Repository for Germinal
Choice, a sperm bank that accepts donations only from Nobellians
and Olympians.

ECONOMICS
Michael Milken, titan of Wall Street and father of the junk bond,
to whom the world is indebted.

LITERATURE
Erich Von Daniken, visionary raconteur and author of "Chariots of
the Gods," for explaining how human civilization was influenced by
ancient astronauts from outer space.

PEACE
Edward Teller, father of the hydrogen bomb and first champion of
the Star Wars weapons system, for his lifelong efforts to change
the meaning of peace as we know it.

......................................................
.
Thank you, teacher, for pointing that out, but I'd appreciate if you put on your glasses before reading the posts...

I do not dare disputing the Evolution -- as foolish as I can be, I ain't that foolish! Obviously, Life evolved...
(what kind of a Creationist would I be, if I call the Religion a Dogma?!!)
However, I was referring to the SEED of Reasonable Life! ! !
(I'd also appreciate if you take the blinders off...)

I am not attempting to claim that aliens (Non-human intelligent humanoid life forms) are "imaginary."

I'm quite sure they are very real. But then, everyone has their own definition of "real" and people create and define "reality" according to their own personal perceptions.

(And the imagination is greater than the sword, it is the creative source of all things.)

My point would be to ask you about the "reality" of your spirits and newly adopted pagan gods that you have been going on about. Are you then simply playing a fantasy game to replace your rejected religion and Christian God with something else? It just doesn't seem like much of a step forward towards the truth to me.

I am quite serious about my conclusions about aliens. I am not pretending. I approach the probabilities with eyes wide open and logic in tact. You seem to sway back and forth between fairies, gods, spirits and the scientific dogmatic idea that only what you can see and test or touch is all that actually exists.

Creative and Billy like to use the word "actuality" as if the word "reality" has lost some of its integrity because of its flagrant abuse by "flakes" like me who believe in the probability of aliens living in this galaxy ~and even among us.

Yes I believe they do exist, and they have been here longer than we have. That humans don't know it for a fact is what is amazing.

I was interested in your comment here. What is this? Can you point out a link?

I ask because ancient humans did have a very sophisticated understanding of robotics if not computers. I saw another show on the History Channel in which they discuss the inventors Heron and Philon who were constructing automatic devices such as robotic temple doors and an automatic serving girl. This was extending as far back as the Byzantine Empire of 830 AD and even before.

Please spare me your "holier than thou" speeches.

I don't sway back and forth between anything. That's your misperception of how I understand these concepts and how they are indeed related and consistent.

Science doesn't rule out the possiblity of 'spiritual' beings. If you think it does that only stems from your misunderstanding of what science is actually saying.

However, it should be obvious even without any appeal to science that the idea of a reptilian race of highly advanced beings would have nothing to gain from playing soap opera politics with humans.

Moreover, you claim:



You like to pretend that people like Billy and Creative have never given these things serious consideration. I would beg to differ with you. I'm sure that both of them have indeed considered the idea of aliens visiting (or being on) planet earth and the potential consequences of that, just like I have.

We've simply recognized that the more seriously it is considered the more outrageous it becomes.

The very first thing that you seem to be totally ignoring is the technological aspect of it.

It's not that we refuse to believe that such technologies couldn't be possible. That's moot.

A more foundation epiphany is the following FACT!

If an alien race had the technological capabilities required to do the things that you suggest they most certainly would have no use for humans. Cerainly not as slaves! Human slaves would be totally inefficient to keep and far less useful than the robotic devices they could build.

So these 'Draconians' would have no use for humans as slaves.

The only other possible interest they could have in humans would be for food. But again their superior technology rules out the idea that they would go about it by becoming involved in politics behind the scenes.

Moreover, scientically speaking there would be no reason why humans would be any better food than many of the other mamals on this planet. They'd be better off just raising mindless lifestock like we do. Why bother with a bunch of arrogant politically-motivated humans when a cow is probably a more effecient feed animal anyway?

The point being that it goes far beyond the simple-minded question of whether or not we can imagine it being possible. Deeper philosophical questions that you don't seem to be considering come into play.

In order to believe your scenario we must believe that Draconians are much more highly evolved technologically, yet are still as lowly evolved and as as immature as humans mentally.

That presents a multitude of philosophical questions that people like myself, Billy, and Creative simply don't see as being reasonable by and stretch of the imagination.

Especially considering that the evidence for them is basically non-existent dispite your erroneous claims.

The evidence just isn't there. You take every little quirky thing and blow it way out of proportion treating it as if it's a hardcore well-established fact, when in truth it was never anything but a false rumor to begin with.

I think Billy and Creative and myself have given these things plenty of serious consideration and we've simply concluded that they are neither practical, nor probable.

Yet you accuse us of lacking depth. Personally I feel that it's precisely the other way around. You just haven't opened your eyes to all the implications of what you are proposing. This is as silly as a God that tells people to murder heathens and then sends his son into the crowd to become a heathen. It's just silly.

Of course a lot of people fell for that one too, so you've got a good chance at gaining a large following.

Most people don't bother to think things through in depth.

Richard Hoagland-Biographical Information
Richard C. Hoagland is a former museum space science Curator; a former NASA Consultant; and, during the historic Apollo Missions to the Moon, was science advisor to Walter Cronkite and CBS News. In the mid-1960's, at the age of 19 (possibly "the youngest museum curator in the country at the time"), Hoagland created his first elaborate commemorative event -- around NASA's first historic unmanned fly-by of the planet Mars, Mariner 4. A simultaneous all-night, transcontinental radio program the evening of the Encounter (linking the museum in Springfield, Mass., and NASA's JPL control center, in Pasadena, Ca.), co-produced by Hoagland and WTIC-Radio, in Hartford, Ct., was subsequently nominated for a Peabody Award, one of journalism's most prestigious.

In the early 1970's, Hoagland proposed to Carl Sagan (along with Eric Burgess) the placement of a "message to Mankind" aboard Pioneer 10 -- humanity's "first unmanned probe of Jupiter"; subsequent to its 1973 Jovian Encounter, celestial mechanics resulted in Pioneer 10 becoming the first artifact to successfully escape the solar system into the vast Galaxy beyond -- carrying "the Plaque" -- whose origins were officially acknowledged by Sagan in the prestigious journal, SCIENCE (175 [1972], 881).

In the early 1980's, based on NASA data from the more sophisticated unmanned Voyager fly-bys of the outer planets, Hoagland became the first to propose (in a widely-quoted series of UPI and AP stories on his startling paper, published in 1980 in Star & Sky magazine) the possible existence of "deep ocean life" under the global ice shield perpetually surrounding the enigmatic moon of Jupiter, Europa. At the time, most (though not all) NASA scientists instantly derided this idea; two outstanding dissenters from the unfortunately then-common NASA view were Director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, Dr. Robert Jastrow, and well-known science writer and visionary, Arthur C. Clarke. In the sequel to his outstanding epic "2001" ("2010: Odyssey Two"), built entirely around this extraordinary concept of "eon-old life in the ice-covered oceans of Europa," Clarke wrote:

"The fascinating idea that there might be life on Europa . . . was first proposed by Richard C. Hoagland [in a 30-page article] in the magazine Star & Sky... This quite brilliant concept has been taken seriously by a number of astronomers (notably NASA's Institute for Space Studies, Dr. Robert Jastrow), and may provide one of the best motives for the projected GALILEO Mission."

Remarkably, before recent NASA press conferences and television documentaries, celebrating the successfully GALILEO probe of Jupiter's atmosphere, December 7, 1995, NASA scientists' "belated" acceptance of the startling possibility of "life in Europa's oceans" has been widely presented and discussed. As is GALILEO's potential acquisition of new data from its upcoming Europa fly-bys which could lead to actual confirmation (!) of the "Hoagland model." Curiously, despite clearly prior publication and detailed elaboration of the concept, Hoagland's name is not being mentioned anywhere by NASA, or by current GALILEO scientists, in connection with "Europa"...

In the early 1990's Mr. Hoagland led a team of volunteers and consultants in the creation of a pioneering "space-age" inner-city educational effort at Dunbar Senior High, just off Capitol Hill, in Washington D.C. The experiment was built around the concept of "student involvement in real time' mission planning and data acquisition" during various NASA planetary exploration missions, such as "Hubble" and the ill-fated "Mars Observer." Starting as an after school extracurricular activity, and using donated state-of-the-art computer imaging equipment and enhancement algorithms, "The Enterprise Mission" and "becoming a crew member of the 'U.S.S. Dunbar'" eventually became an accredited course in the Dunbar school curriculum. Over the years, scores of senior NASA Headquarters and Goddard Space Flight Center personnel have enthusiastically participated in the project, including installation of a student satellite data link direct to NASA and on-site briefing of students on many current NASA projects. Education advocate, then First Lady Barbara Bush, personally came to Dunbar early in the project, for a personal briefing by the students; this -- the original "ENTERPRISE Mission" -- was ultimately nominated for a White House "Point of Light" award.

For the last 13 years, since 1983, Hoagland has been leading an outside scientific Team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible intelligently-designed artifacts on NASA (and other) data sets -- beginning with the unmanned NASA VIKING mission to Mars in 1976, and its provocative images of a region called "Cydonia." Hoagland and his Team have been invited at least four times to various NASA Centers since 1988, to brief thousands of NASA scientists and engineers on the results of their on-going "Cydonia investigation." In 1989, Hoagland and his colleagues briefed then-Chairman of the House Committee on Space Science and Applications, Representative Robert Roe, on the status of their "Mars Investigation." Chairman Roe, before his sudden and unexplained resignation from the Congress, directed NASA to acquire better images from Mars during its then-upcoming "Mars Observer mission"; Mars Observer's equally sudden and tragic disappearance in 1993 precluded any new data relating to "Cydonia." In 1993, Hoagland was awarded the International Angstrom Medal for Excellence in Science by the Angstrom Foundation, in Stockholm, Sweden, for that continuing research. In the last 4 years, he and his Team's investigations have been quietly extended to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon missions to the Moon -- with startling results.
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Better go look at what some very credible people have to say about the existence of intelligent life outside of our limited understanding.

It's all a big ride- Bill Hicks.

This is what the television series Battlestar Galactica was about. A civilization of humans had a war with intelligent machines (Cylons) that they had created. Their planet was destroyed in a nuclear war and was uninhabitable, so they set out in search of a new home. After many years they found a planet called Earth but it too had been destroyed in a similar conflict and there were no survivors, only ruins of a planet that looked remarkably similar to our Earth. It too was uninhabitable. They set out again and after finally defeating their pursuers (the Cylons), they found the "real" Earth. It was millions of years in the past. These humans from space (The Colonials)found that humans had evolved on this planet as well. Cavemen. There were not many surviving Colonials left and they mixed with the Cavemen that had evolved here on Earth and created humans like us.

Wasnt "Planet of the Apes" along that same premise also? I mean it was the apes that had evolved because humans had destroyed themselves in a nuclear war correct? So the astronauts had actually only gone into the future a million years (or however long it took) for the apes to evolve but it was actually earth in the future tense they were on?

It was confusing but what is weird about those films is you can take any one and watch it as the very first movie due to the time travel sequence.